Brother Weasel Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 a good example of why not to take an IC is in the example listed...shooting at the unit with the hook. Why waste my firepower on a unit like that when there are bigger threats to my army. everyone is so ready to shoot people down:) you don't have to shoot them, you could assult them and kill them. all i'm saying is that if you bring an IC, i dont' think you have to FEAR the hook, you have to know it's there and you ahve to deal with it. I don't think people shold take thier all commers lists with IC and remove the IC because they might be able to hook him.. that's my only point... of course i can sit here and find ways to use the hook against people with IC, but i don't think the DE are going to base thier entire army on removing your IC out of a unit... hell if you really fear it and want an IC, get one that isn't in a unit in the first place... run a Libby with a JP and don't have him join a unit, there it's solved... next topic please... lets see... what about uhhh, FNP incibi squads, how to deal with them, or maybe sopme of the IC that can do some crazy things, or what about dealing with someone who drops a portal in the middle of the feild and then has assult type units jump out of them... how we going to deal with those... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Agree 100% with the above statement regarding the hook. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arturas Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 One last nail in the coffin of the stunhook; a hellion sarge cannot take a stunhook and a power weapon so your IC will be surrounded by a bunch of measly attacks that don't ignore armor or FNP. While that may still be a problem for SP's any other IC's should be fine. I would agree that Incubi are a much greater concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 One last nail in the coffin of the stunhook; a hellion sarge cannot take a stunhook and a power weapon so your IC will be surrounded by a bunch of measly attacks that don't ignore armor or FNP. While that may still be a problem for SP's any other IC's should be fine. I would agree that Incubi are a much greater concern. oh. didnt know that one. Yeah forget my earlier statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybnick Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I for one want to see the hellions use the stun claw to pull Seth out of a combat. Imagine the celebration and then the carnage of that little encounter. Seth: Oh you're I5, me too... Hellion: So we will swarm you with all of our attacks! Seth: You're all surounding me right? Hellion: Well yes, we brought you out here with us for that specific purpose. Prepare for all of our might S4 non PW attacks! Seth: Ok, but first let me just show you my fancy chainsword :Seth uses Whirlwind of Gore: Hellion: I know I'm into pain, but this is just too much :runs away: Really though I'm pretty underwhelmed by the Hellions. First off for a full squad (20 men) they cost quite a lot of points, something over 300 if I remember right, and a 10 man or less squad of them isn't really all that intimidating. Secondly they are still T3 w/ a 5+ save, even with FnP they won't be to difficult to kill and they have to weather an entire round of assault before they can use hit and run which will likely mean several of them will die before running. Almost any IC they can pull out of combat with them should be able to hold their own until help can arrive (pirest's being the least likely to survive). As a pure assault unit they really aren't much to fear, as a counter charge unit (piling in with some Wyches already in CC) or a harassment unit (using their fast movement and assault 2 poisoned guns) they are a bit scarrier, I doubt . I doubt that many people will use them as such though, because their special rules and +1S weapons make people want to charge them headlong into things they really shouldn't be charging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Incubi? Hmm. Well they have a 3+ save, PW with +1 str, and some nice 1v1 rules on the sergeant. Odds are they will have a transport. Shoot it down. Option 1: Use heavy bolters to overwhelm their save, plasma cannons, or a simple sternguard squad rapid firing vengeance rounds with priest. Option 2: Vindicator. Odds are only the archon will survive. Option 3: A furioso dreadnought with blood talons. I think the dreadnought is the best bet assuming it is not destroyed by enemy DL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 good general ideas, but their transport may not be that easy to shoot down, if they are in one (little buggers move fast) they may have FNP to start (there are ways to make this happen) they may be poppin gout of a webway portal as well.. now they don't have grenades, but if they are with an archon he could take a launcher that gives the squad he's in grenades. so it may be important to know who has what before the game starts. I belive they have fleet as well... I thikn a good DE general will be a pain in the but (as with any good general) because of course any single unt will have its counter, buit it's going to be how we deal wht the synergy they could (and should) have... what is the biggest threat they have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Well, the ravager can move 12 inches and fire its 3 guns. The fighter they have has 2 DL and can also move just as fast. So these two are the greatest threats to our armor outside of Vect whoses stats I haven't looked over. The key really is to knock out their mobility. Once that's gone they're just a bunch of highly skilled guardians prancing across the battlefield. Harlequins could be a big issue with the fast open topped transports! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rybnick Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 what is the biggest threat they have? It's ahrd to nail down a biggest single threat as everything has the potential to be deadly. The things I'd watch out for are 1) Disintigrators on Ravagers (move 12 and fire all weaponry with a vehicle upgrade) 2) Fast moving transports full of Incubi or Archons 3) Fast moving transports full of tarpit wych squads 4) Webway portal placement and huge blobs of beastmaster packs entering right ontop of you. 5) Fast moving gunship Raiders full of warrior squads pumping out tons and tons of poisoned shooting w/ rerolls to hit thanks to the Raiders wargear. These are just off the top of my head and in no particular order. The DE remain how they have always been (with a tad bit more survivability added), it's a game of keeping what can hurt you up close far away and what can hurt you from far away close to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CainTheHunter Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Harlequins could be a big issue with the fast open topped transports! As far as I've read on the net (not seen the actual book yet) they don't get any transport options. Correct me if I am wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 They can always ride in someone else's or just pop out of the WWP. 0b ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morticon Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Not dedicated - but they still have the seer - which means they have all the regular targetting issues. The use of a portal also means they can get up fast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 I think they will become more popular again. Stick a close combat HQ with them that can fleet and go nutso. 0b ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Just to the people who were shouting Razorback ass-can spam to be the way... I would like to point out even with the current codex... (and the Night field/shield is in the new one) I can take 6 of your range so 18 inch ass cans... fair doos... while I've got a 36 inch range in which I can fly around and snipe out your razorbacks... and the points difference wouldn't be huge atm... (I haven't checked the new dex for the points... gone up a bit no doubt...) but my troops are cheaper... so in theory I could get more... and once your on foot I will eat you alive if your army is seperated and even if it isn't I can stay back for a few turns and shoot you at 24 inches I'll even be able to unload the squad and be safe from all but heavy weapons and even if you move closer because you are rapid fire it will mean you are out of range. Heavy bolters are so/so they have the range to match but the night shield gives a slight advantage so you need to position them well or have them mobile to start with... Cheap missile launchers and auto-cannons would be the way to go IMO as it stops nigh field tricks... Mephiston again isn't the way to go against DE... depending on what the DE take as their are a couple of things that should be able to take him without much issue... as long as the DE player knows how to keep his units alive... (always the trick no?) and some of those come in at half the points and can kill other things as well... Leileth on the other hand isn't much of a threat if she is used as I imagine many people will use her although their is a nasty and somewhat sneaky trick that will make her very dangerous AKA by by anything that hasn't got an AV. (Old lelieth was better IMO) Incubi another unit people seemed to be worried about... well they are much like current incubi the biggest difference being they might have FNP... but the easy answer is... S6+ weapons or AP2 weapons that you like to bust on on elite units in other armies... I think the DE might have a hard time against craftworld eldar if I'm honest... Anyway guys cool down and wait to see what lists appear because that will determine how you counter it... but if your counter unit is dead you can't use it to do its job...and DE are really good at killing stuff compared to many armies... they just die really quickly as well... so the key is to know how to pull the carpet from under the feet on the list and not how to kill any one single unit... because the only thing thats that really come near UBER units in the DE dex are SCs... but for the moment missile launchers and auto-cannons would be my bet. @ Black Orange... that could also be a way of carrying a portal into battle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Just to the people who were shouting Razorback ass-can spam to be the way... So like 2 people who even brought it up, and i'd think after dropping hte raiders high volumes of shots are going to be a big fear of the DE, dont' think spamming cannons will drop raiders, but it will drop the contents:) Heavy bolters are so/so they have the range to match but the night shield gives a slight advantage so you need to position them well or have them mobile to start with... Cheap missile launchers and auto-cannons would be the way to go IMO as it stops nigh field tricks... Cheap missile launchers are usually a decent idea, the low armor of the DE will make them a good choice. Incubi another unit people seemed to be worried about... well they are much like current incubi the biggest difference being they might have FNP... but the easy answer is... S6+ weapons or AP2 weapons that you like to bust on on elite units in other armies... true nuff, as usualy, the key will really be to out manuver them because they will be trying to avoid getting hit by those s6 and ap2 wepons right off the bat:) Anyway guys cool down and wait to see what lists appear because that will determine how you counter it... but if your counter unit is dead you can't use it to do its job...and DE are really good at killing stuff compared to many armies... they just die really quickly as well... so the key is to know how to pull the carpet from under the feet on the list and not how to kill any one single unit... because the only thing thats that really come near UBER units in the DE dex are SCs... looking at units is never a bad idea, gives us something to talk about:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 4 st 6 tl shots will beat raiders. Especially when they are open topped. And you can fly around all you like. Tlac DBS have an effective range of 36 inches. Stay free Tlac also also insta kill dark eldar, so unless incubi are t4 they don't get fnp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMouth Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Mephiston again isn't the way to go against DE... depending on what the DE take as their are a couple of things that should be able to take him without much issue... as long as the DE player knows how to keep his units alive... (always the trick no?) and some of those come in at half the points and can kill other things as well... Examples of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 4 st 6 tl shots will beat raiders. Especially when they are open topped. And you can fly around all you like. Tlac DBS have an effective range of 36 inches. Stay free Tlac also also insta kill dark eldar, so unless incubi are t4 they don't get fnp arguments against this train of thought (to play devils advocate, i'll need a mathhammer person to tell me the %) is that they will be hit on a 6 if they are flying around and they can get a 5++ save. and of course who goes first will help that out, or who gets to shoot first, because out TLAC will have to be alive to take the shots.. just stuff to think about... i think AC will be generaly effective on the Baal. i've heard arguments that FNP wold work anyways, i havn't actualy looked into the ruling, and that's an argument somewhere else, but much like our DC, if they are in a transport or popping out of a wwp you may not get time to shoot them. (just more stuff to think about, not looking to argue about it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 4 st 6 tl shots will beat raiders. Especially when they are open topped. And you can fly around all you like. Tlac DBS have an effective range of 36 inches. Stay free Tlac also also insta kill dark eldar, so unless incubi are t4 they don't get fnp arguments against this train of thought (to play devils advocate, i'll need a mathhammer person to tell me the %) is that they will be hit on a 6 if they are flying around and they can get a 5++ save. and of course who goes first will help that out, or who gets to shoot first, because out TLAC will have to be alive to take the shots.. just stuff to think about... i think AC will be generaly effective on the Baal. i've heard arguments that FNP wold work anyways, i havn't actualy looked into the ruling, and that's an argument somewhere else, but much like our DC, if they are in a transport or popping out of a wwp you may not get time to shoot them. (just more stuff to think about, not looking to argue about it) Given: AV11, open-topped skimmer with a third-edition Dark Lance and current Shimmerfield (or whatever it's called) to represent Dark Eldar vehicle (don't have the codex available) Given: Baal Predator with no upgrades Given: Dark Eldar vehicle moved enough to be hit on a 6+ in combat (has no effect on shooting). Assuming: all weapons in range of each other Assuming: no cover for either combatant Assuming: the Dark Eldar ship will shoot at the side armor of the Baal Predator Assuming: Baal Predator shoots first Note: the Dark Eldar vehicle is a Skimmer; Immobilized results are treated as Wrecked results. Baal Predator has BS4. 66% of shots hit. Twin-linked gives the fail rate an additional 66% chance of success. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 88% The Dark Eldar's Shimmerfield negates 33% of all hits. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 59% The Assault Cannon's S6 requires 5+ to damage the Dark Eldar vehicle. 33% chance of success on this roll. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 20% The Assault Cannon has Rending, but 6s are already Penetrating Hits. This rule has no influence on the outcome. One-third of shots successful at this point are Glancing Hits; that is, 7% of the original shots fired will only be Glancing Hits. As the Dark Eldar vehicle is open-topped, total of -1 on the Vehicle Damage Table means that 2% of original shots fired will follow this path and wreck the Dark Eldar vehicle. Another 4% only prevent it from firing (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed). The Penetrating Hits, 13% of shots originally fired, gain +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table. 10% of shots originally fired follow this path and wreck the Dark Eldar vehicle. In total: 14% chance of destroying the vehicle, 17% chance of stopping it from firing (including wrecking it). Dark Eldar vehicle has BS4. 66% of shots hit. The Dark Lance's S8 requires a 3+ to damage the Baal Predator's AV11. 66% chance of success on this roll. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 44% One fourth of shots that hit deal a Glancing Hit. These are not capable of Wrecking the Baal Predator, but half of these shots (5%) will prevent the Baal Predator from firing next turn. Three fourths of shots that hit deal a Penetrating Hit. No bonuses are present, and as such, the usual Vehcile Damage Table applies (1/3 [11%] will Wreck, 1/2 [16%] prevent shooting next turn by other results) In total: 11% chance to destroy the Baal Predator, 32% chance of prevent firing next turn (including wrecking). EDIT: using wrong Strength value and weapon name for the Baal Predator. Corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sir Blayse Posted October 21, 2010 Share Posted October 21, 2010 Baal's use assault cannons with Str 6, not autocannons at str 7. otherwise nice work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 TLAC is twin linked assault cannon. St 6 ap4 rending. Heavy 4 My iPhone corrected RBs to DBS. RB = Razorback Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Lol My method will be the same as everything else "Crush your enemy's , See them driven before you And hear the Lamenation of their women" So with that There are 2 courses for this they will either be Crushed under the Tracks of my Cold Steel Tanks OR they can die to chain Axes and Power weapons oh and they can meet some of our mates who have the Motto "NONE can stay my WRATH" . Look Brothers stay vigilant have faith in your wargear and Crush those who wish to destroy the Emperors plans For The EMPEROR and SANGUINIUS. These Runty elves may hit us first BUT we will hit them harder in retern and once this is done we will heap their bodies and make Pyres the size of chapter fortresses. We are the Emperors finest we carry the Geneseed of the greatest warriors to be unleashed on the Universe and Finally we will grant those filthy Xeno what they are after THE EMPERORS MERCY. But Serious face now You have to remember they are not going to make them better than a Imperial Codex so we should have no worries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 They might not be intentionally better than an imperial codex, but then things slip through Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 These Runty elves may hit us first BUT we will hit them harder in retern and once this is done we will heap their bodies and make Pyres the size of chapter fortresses. i think the best idea is to stop them from hitting hard first:) that's the idea i'm getting from all this, it's limiting their first strike and then taking care of their t3 army... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Best way seems to be to take out their methods of getting around re board quickly, then grind out the remaining infantry into dust Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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