Crynn Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Mephiston again isn't the way to go against DE... depending on what the DE take as their are a couple of things that should be able to take him without much issue... as long as the DE player knows how to keep his units alive... (always the trick no?) and some of those come in at half the points and can kill other things as well... Examples of this? I agree like what? They ahve no psychi defence and he will eat anything they have in CC. Before anyone goes saying 'poisened weapons' please do the math behind this before you post your opinions, because opinions are like :cusss, everybody has one. So unless it comes with some evidence don't bother. I'll give you a running start it takes around 182 poisened shots to kill meph if he is within a FnP bubble and still 91 without, so that isnt effective. So how is Meph going to struggle against DE? There is nothing he cant out run once you down a transport. Lol My method will be the same as everything else "Crush your enemy's , See them driven before you And hear the Lamenation of their women" So with that There are 2 courses for this they will either be Crushed under the Tracks of my Cold Steel Tanks OR they can die to chain Axes and Power weapons oh and they can meet some of our mates who have the Motto "NONE can stay my WRATH" . Look Brothers stay vigilant have faith in your wargear and Crush those who wish to destroy the Emperors plans For The EMPEROR and SANGUINIUS. These Runty elves may hit us first BUT we will hit them harder in retern and once this is done we will heap their bodies and make Pyres the size of chapter fortresses. We are the Emperors finest we carry the Geneseed of the greatest warriors to be unleashed on the Universe and Finally we will grant those filthy Xeno what they are after THE EMPERORS MERCY. But Serious face now You have to remember they are not going to make them better than a Imperial Codex so we should have no worries. Well thank god this peace of literature made the forums. I feel safer already. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542439 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I'm pretty sure an Archon with the wargear upgrade that causes instant death running with furious charge would have a good chance to gang Meph Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542449 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 i'm going to have to go back to the store next week to find things that kill mephy, see what all has ID, high init ot enough wounds to stay around:), course then i'll have to tell you some stats and you can math hammer it out. as for me, to much thinnking, involved it how to kill meph, all esle fails bog him down and kill everything else... :) so to sum up what we know... thier first sticking will be what hurts, and what we want to do is limit how badly they hurt us, so that we can lay big fire power at thier things and let mephy (if you use him) do what he does Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542457 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Well Crynn as you said "opinions=:cusssBlahblah" so yeah Im not one of those types that change their list depending on what Im fighting Sure people will know what to expect when fighting me but thats when you bust out superior tactics It makes the game a challenge which makes the game fun. Not playing a game of I taliord a army to fight yours herp de derp because that just makes stuff lame. I will respect your opinion, But seriously MEH Oh noes DE are gonna play different to what they used too lol nah same old raider rush just with a few different toys Makes NO difference. DE are DE weak as piss but fast big whoop. Stop their Transports then they die just like Elfdar only wearing Black leather they might make some ripples for the first month or so but are not going to knock IG,SW and BA from their top teir places. So dark Elfdar will fight like Dark Elfdar so Glass hammer either turn one or bust. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542459 Share on other sites More sharing options...
CainTheHunter Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I am actually going to give them a try :D Been looking at them after I started 13th Company, but lack of new codex etc made me think hardly. At least they are not marines and play very different to any other list/army I've played. But still I don't feel pressed with both my SW lists as they are now (mech and Loganwing). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542546 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Mephiston again isn't the way to go against DE... depending on what the DE take as their are a couple of things that should be able to take him without much issue... as long as the DE player knows how to keep his units alive... (always the trick no?) and some of those come in at half the points and can kill other things as well... Examples of this? I agree like what? They ahve no psychi defence and he will eat anything they have in CC. Before anyone goes saying 'poisened weapons' please do the math behind this before you post your opinions, because opinions are like :cusss, everybody has one. So unless it comes with some evidence don't bother. I'll give you a running start it takes around 182 poisened shots to kill meph if he is within a FnP bubble and still 91 without, so that isnt effective. So how is Meph going to struggle against DE? There is nothing he cant out run once you down a transport. Hey you might want to read the DE codex they have at least 2 forms of psychic defence and I saw one of them kill every single psyker in an IG psyker battle squad in one turn it isn't totally crap either... Well for a start how about units that hit before you or at the same time in combat have enough attacks to get the job done which will hit on 3's or 4's depending on what your doing..... wounding ons 2's (at best again depending on set up)... ignoring armour... (potentially causing instant death again depends on what set-up you use) oh and lets just say we use a Archon to try and kill you in combat... while you might beat the crap out of him a 2++ is a pretty good insurance policy... they get ID by relic blades so they don't care about your S10.... So actually it isn't super-dooper hard to kill meph for DE... ooo also implosion missile anyone? Hah will need to read its rules again but it looked like it was designed to kill MCs so it might work on Meph... I'm not saying he isn't hard but he isn't the be-all and end all... DE love small elite armies... they nom them to bits... they want you to take Meph, two land raiders and two pimped out squads that is happy days... So yer please try reading the DE codex... before you start talking smack about what I say... and yer if you take DE transports down they are a lot easier to kill and thats what I've told people to do but I also warned that assault cannons (which I normally advocate and they are good for killing infantry in DE lists) are not great for taking down raiders and ravagers if you have a canny DE player and are playing on a a board that isn't to small for the game.... that you need some long ranged Anti-tank auto-cannons and missile launchers being the best agains DE as they kill everything... Currently some IG lists are the hardest for DE to beat IMO and I've seen a good DE player table them those lists by turn 3... I've seen bad DE players have the reverse happen and I guess DE may well stay the same... but I like to assume my opponent is good... The other option BA might consider is mass rhinos with support from long ranged AT... stick a combi-flamer/flamer in the squad... maybe something that can kill vehicles (well have a better chance than a bolter...) go up and just shoot/charge or double tap the DE... you will find it makes a huge mess out of them... Oh FYI their is at least one unit Mephy can't out run when they don't have a transport... not that I would think of them as Meph killers yet... but they are faster than him... welcome to the world of jetbikes... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542560 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Given: AV11, open-topped skimmer with a third-edition Dark Lance and current Shimmerfield (or whatever it's called) to represent Dark Eldar vehicle (don't have the codex available)Given: Baal Predator with no upgrades Given: Dark Eldar vehicle moved enough to be hit on a 6+ in combat (has no effect on shooting). Assuming: all weapons in range of each other Assuming: no cover for either combatant Assuming: the Dark Eldar ship will shoot at the side armor of the Baal Predator Assuming: Baal Predator shoots first Note: the Dark Eldar vehicle is a Skimmer; Immobilized results are treated as Wrecked results. You assume one thing wrong here.. as Fast Skimmers do get a 4+ Cover Save when moving Flat Out (12"+) just like bikes do. With the added advantage that their actual movement doesn't have to be a minimum distance from their starting point. This is only for skimmers. We assume a Dark Eldar Raider with 10 armor all around, not even the 11 armor Ravager. So the calculation goes like this: Baal Predator has BS4. 66% of shots hit. Twin-linked gives the fail rate an additional 66% chance of success. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 88% The Dark Eldar's Moving Flat Out negates 50% of all hits. Percent of shots successful at this stage: 44% There is a 16% chance that one of the hits counts as Rending, getting d3 extra on their penetration hit. So of those 44%, 7% Rend and 37% are normal hits. The Assaultcannon's S6 requires 4 to glance the Dark Eldar vehicle, a 5+ to Penetrate on normal hits. So a 16% chance to glance and a 33% chance to penetrate. That means that on initial hits: 6% glances and 12% penetrates. The Rending hits have an extra of d3 to add.. which have a different chance to roll 4 and 5+, 16% to glance and 66% chance to penetrate.. so of that 7% chance to rend you get: 1% chance to glance and 4% chance to penetrate. Which makes a total of 7% chance to glance and 16% chance to penetrate the vehicle shot at. As the Dark Eldar vehicle is open-topped, total of -1 on the Vehicle Damage Table for Glancing means that 2% of original shots fired will follow this path and wreck the Dark Eldar vehicle. Another 4% only prevent it from firing (Shaken, Stunned, Weapon Destroyed). The Penetrating Hits, 16% of shots originally fired, gain +1 on the Vehicle Damage Table. 12% of shots originally fired follow this path and wreck the Dark Eldar vehicle. In total: 14% chance of destroying the vehicle, 23% chance of stopping it from firing (including wrecking it). This means that, on average, the chances to do harm to each other are quite equal, with the Baal having a smaller chance to get destroyed, but the Raider having a bigger chance that nothing happens to it. As I said before: Their speed makes it so that their lighter armor is less of an issue. Forgive me if I made some math hammer mistakes here and there, but most will be in rounding I believe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542628 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 DE have enough units that can hit first or simo with Mephiston and wound him with attacks that will insta-gib him. 0b Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542636 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drachnon Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Devlorin I think he didn't use the rules for flat out speed on purpose, moving flat out would mean that it can't fire after all. Anyways I'd like to play DE, let's see if Astaroth works as well against archons as he does against farseers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542669 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Devlorin I think he didn't use the rules for flat out speed on purpose, moving flat out would mean that it can't fire after all. Anyways I'd like to play DE, let's see if Astaroth works as well against archons as he does against farseers. :P but on that note you should take into account that the DE will get to fire first if that is what they want to do against a ass-can razorback Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542694 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Why are you taking Rending into consideration? Rending happens on a 6 for armour pen. 6+6 is 12 already.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542715 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Why are you taking Rending into consideration? Rending happens on a 6 for armour pen. 6+6 is 12 already.... rending is Ap2 right? because if it was AP1 that would make a difference... but I've always thought it was ap2... and can't be assed to find my rule book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542749 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Why are you taking Rending into consideration? Rending happens on a 6 for armour pen. 6+6 is 12 already.... rending is Ap2 right? because if it was AP1 that would make a difference... but I've always thught it was ap2... and can't be assed to find my rule book. Rending is AP2, but on a 6 on the armor pen roll you get to add a d3. So 6+6+1d3. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542784 Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 As a simple request, lets keep our comments on topic and polite. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542788 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crynn Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 i'm going to have to go back to the store next week to find things that kill mephy, see what all has ID, high init ot enough wounds to stay around:), course then i'll have to tell you some stats and you can math hammer it out.:P as for me, to much thinnking, involved it how to kill meph, all esle fails bog him down and kill everything else... :) so to sum up what we know... thier first sticking will be what hurts, and what we want to do is limit how badly they hurt us, so that we can lay big fire power at thier things and let mephy (if you use him) do what he does I did the math hammer already, sure there are combos that will kill him but no single IC Special char or unit can kill meph 1v1 on average including archon with husk blade and shadow field. I direcetly responded to a comment saying that DE will have no problems dealing with Meph, I never said they couldnt I just disagreed with that statement that he will be easy for them to deal with. Well Crynn as you said "opinions=:cusssBlahblah" so yeah Im not one of those types that change their list depending on what Im fighting Sure people will know what to expect when fighting me but thats when you bust out superior tactics It makes the game a challenge which makes the game fun. Not playing a game of I taliord a army to fight yours herp de derp because that just makes stuff lame. I will respect your opinion, But seriously MEH Oh noes DE are gonna play different to what they used too lol nah same old raider rush just with a few different toys Makes NO difference. DE are DE weak as piss but fast big whoop. Stop their Transports then they die just like Elfdar only wearing Black leather they might make some ripples for the first month or so but are not going to knock IG,SW and BA from their top teir places. So dark Elfdar will fight like Dark Elfdar so Glass hammer either turn one or bust. I don't know what your refering to here, I never taylor my lists and I don't advocate that others do. Mephiston again isn't the way to go against DE... depending on what the DE take as their are a couple of things that should be able to take him without much issue... as long as the DE player knows how to keep his units alive... (always the trick no?) and some of those come in at half the points and can kill other things as well... Examples of this? I agree like what? They ahve no psychi defence and he will eat anything they have in CC. Before anyone goes saying 'poisened weapons' please do the math behind this before you post your opinions, because opinions are like :cusss, everybody has one. So unless it comes with some evidence don't bother. I'll give you a running start it takes around 182 poisened shots to kill meph if he is within a FnP bubble and still 91 without, so that isnt effective. So how is Meph going to struggle against DE? There is nothing he cant out run once you down a transport. Hey you might want to read the DE codex they have at least 2 forms of psychic defence and I saw one of them kill every single psyker in an IG psyker battle squad in one turn it isn't totally crap either... Well for a start how about units that hit before you or at the same time in combat have enough attacks to get the job done which will hit on 3's or 4's depending on what your doing..... wounding ons 2's (at best again depending on set up)... ignoring armour... (potentially causing instant death again depends on what set-up you use) oh and lets just say we use a Archon to try and kill you in combat... while you might beat the crap out of him a 2++ is a pretty good insurance policy... they get ID by relic blades so they don't care about your S10.... So actually it isn't super-dooper hard to kill meph for DE... ooo also implosion missile anyone? Hah will need to read its rules again but it looked like it was designed to kill MCs so it might work on Meph... I'm not saying he isn't hard but he isn't the be-all and end all... DE love small elite armies... they nom them to bits... they want you to take Meph, two land raiders and two pimped out squads that is happy days... So yer please try reading the DE codex... before you start talking smack about what I say... and yer if you take DE transports down they are a lot easier to kill and thats what I've told people to do but I also warned that assault cannons (which I normally advocate and they are good for killing infantry in DE lists) are not great for taking down raiders and ravagers if you have a canny DE player and are playing on a a board that isn't to small for the game.... that you need some long ranged Anti-tank auto-cannons and missile launchers being the best agains DE as they kill everything... Currently some IG lists are the hardest for DE to beat IMO and I've seen a good DE player table them those lists by turn 3... I've seen bad DE players have the reverse happen and I guess DE may well stay the same... but I like to assume my opponent is good... The other option BA might consider is mass rhinos with support from long ranged AT... stick a combi-flamer/flamer in the squad... maybe something that can kill vehicles (well have a better chance than a bolter...) go up and just shoot/charge or double tap the DE... you will find it makes a huge mess out of them... Oh FYI their is at least one unit Mephy can't out run when they don't have a transport... not that I would think of them as Meph killers yet... but they are faster than him... welcome to the world of jetbikes... If I missed the psychic defence please inform me of it i didnt find any in my read throughs however I did look through their IC's and characters very thoroughly and they dont have anything that can take him one on one. As for your 'they have stuff that strikes before him or on par' that is by the by as none of them will beat him unit vs unit. Yes Meph can be taken down and im sure they have many ways to do it. My comment was in response to someone who said it would be easy and I'm showing that it's not, and not by any single unit. So i'm not talking smack because i guarantee i know the codex much better than you do as I've had my hands on it frequently for 2 weeks I have chosen not to post any rumers or stats about them as my local GW staff member has been nice enough to give me the book to analize while I'm there. So there is no smack talk but I will admit I dont know their psychic defence, I couldnt find any on their basic characters or SC so please explain to me what they have as I would actualy like to know. In short all im saying is that meph wont be 'easy' for DE to kill as was suggested. Simple. Regards Crynn Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542831 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 Oh hmm.. I thought rending was on to-hit, not on armor penetration. My bad it seems as many here seem to disagree, don't have my rulebook on hand to check but I'll trust you guys. Well then my mathhammer will be the same as Erasmus' only with 50% less hits. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542870 Share on other sites More sharing options...
SamaNagol Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 What are the numbers on the archon with husk blade vs meph? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542872 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingareth Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 And no 4+ Cover Save, as if the Deldar is shooting, then they don't have the save. ...Better this time James? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 If I missed the psychic defence please inform me of it i didnt find any in my read throughs however I did look through their IC's and characters very thoroughly and they dont have anything that can take him one on one. As for your 'they have stuff that strikes before him or on par' that is by the by as none of them will beat him unit vs unit. Yes Meph can be taken down and im sure they have many ways to do it. My comment was in response to someone who said it would be easy and I'm showing that it's not, and not by any single unit. So i'm not talking smack because i guarantee i know the codex much better than you do as I've had my hands on it frequently for 2 weeks I have chosen not to post any rumers or stats about them as my local GW staff member has been nice enough to give me the book to analize while I'm there. So there is no smack talk but I will admit I dont know their psychic defence, I couldnt find any on their basic characters or SC so please explain to me what they have as I would actualy like to know. In short all im saying is that meph wont be 'easy' for DE to kill as was suggested. Simple. Regards Crynn I classify an object that makes psykers explode as psychic defence... and a character that is immune to and makes her unit immue to psychic powers if I remember correctly... would also classify as a psychic defence. Also I don't need to take you one on one... DE don't play nice, they will mug you... saying a model that costs less than a predator will be beaten by a model that costs the same as a land raider isn't a surprise... start combining units in the DE dex and thats when things start getting dirty... and it isn't just the ICs and Scs that will mug people. DE won't have a problem... he will just be a fast MC... but nto as fast as the DE. I don't have the codex with me so I can't quote you pages and rules but since you seem to have access to time and read the varios rules for units and wargear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542878 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 vects wife who isn't effected by psy nor any unit she joins. and look up the Crucible of Malediction (though it's unreliable) Archon with a husk blade and a shadow field and combat drugs is what i think off the bat. is it a guaranteed kill, no. Possibly an agonizer. Or a wytch squad with shardnets and agonizers, they will die, but they might have the ability to break through mephy... again, i'm not doing math, just postulating... So i'm not talking smack because i guarantee i know the codex much better than you do as I've had my hands on it frequently for 2 weeks so have a lot of people... (some for longer) so i wouldn't guarantee too much. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542885 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 And no 4+ Cover Save, as if the Deldar is shooting, then they don't have the save. ...Better this time James? rider no, ravager yes:) witch goes back to my real point, going first will be what matters:) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542892 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 I math hammered one of the combos I can think of against Mephy and both were wiped out twice over... I mean both Mephy and the DE... but what I used didn't cost as much as a Land Raider. and as for Ravagers/raiders V Razorbacks DE will always go first if the DE player wants to play it that way... against Baal predators it is much harder to say I would be inclined to think that a scouting (if it went first) or outflanking Baal would get to shoot first but DE have a greater chance of going first with some lists and out flanking has a number of risks especially on a 6 X 4 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542906 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dingareth Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 And no 4+ Cover Save, as if the Deldar is shooting, then they don't have the save. ...Better this time James? rider no, ravager yes:) witch goes back to my real point, going first will be what matters:) Again no. A Ravager can move 12" and fire all it's weapons. A Fast Skimmer must move MORE THAN 12" in order to count as obscured. And Hellios: The Dark Eldar player will not always go first, or even shoot first. The Blood Angel player could Steal the Initiative or reserve their whole army if going second, guaranteeing a first strike against the Dark Eldar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542924 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Weasel Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 And no 4+ Cover Save, as if the Deldar is shooting, then they don't have the save. ...Better this time James? rider no, ravager yes:) witch goes back to my real point, going first will be what matters:) Again no. A Ravager can move 12" and fire all it's weapons. A Fast Skimmer must move MORE THAN 12" in order to count as obscured. And Hellios: The Dark Eldar player will not always go first, or even shoot first. The Blood Angel player could Steal the Initiative or reserve their whole army if going second, guaranteeing a first strike against the Dark Eldar. ok, i'll reread it, thought it was able to, that's cool. going first is a matter of prespective.. the DE could steal the init on a 4+ (with vect) or 6+ without as well, they can do the same thing th eba can.. no one can garente a first strike. you go all in reserve, the DE do the same thing, now you are both comming in on turn 2... or he moves his raider out and drops his wwp in the middle of the table and reserves the rest. If you go reserve maybe you have 1 tach that comes on in turn 2, while the eldar player has sat back, now you have nothing in range and he does after his move..... lots can happen that would stop a garenteed first strike, or at least an effective one... it comes down to dice rolls (lik eit should) and what your army is comprised of... if you are list building against the DE themselves you could make some lists that work to that advantage, but if you are doing tourny or take all commers lists, it's something you need to think about... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542936 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erasmus of Baal Posted October 22, 2010 Share Posted October 22, 2010 What are the numbers on the archon with husk blade vs meph? If you can give me (for legal reasons, preferably by private message) the stats on the Archon and what exactly the Huskblade (and any other relevant wargear that the Archon would have) does, then I'd be happy to run the numbers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/213546-dark-eldar/page/4/#findComment-2542944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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