The Octaguide 2.0

[Legatus]

Great hobby article, kudos on the effort to compile all of those guides.

 

(Ironically enough, there was a certain Primarch who was known and is still famed today for compiling a massive guide. )

 

I noticed you did not mention the Space Wolves in the section about the possible genetic origins for the DIY Chapter. I would perhaps also put the Dark Angels and the Salamanders at the lower end of the list, seeing as how the Dark Angels gene-seed is specifically stated to be used reluctantly (other than the White Scars or Iron Hands gene-seed) and how it is speculated whether the Salamanders even have any successors at all.

[elohimalpha]

Great stuff. I've already identified a few cliches in my DIY - justified cliches are still cliches, right? Time to see if they can be re-worked . . . dang it.

 

Again, great resource - thanks for taking the time to make it!

[The Shadowlord]

A very well compiled and informative guide; thank you

[Octavulg]

Malthe:

 

Having only recently taken up the - metaphorical - pen of an AI author, I can but join the chorus of jubilation!

I, and so many other liber-newbies, owe you, your apt and frequent criticism and your guide a great deal.

Thanks for making writing an AI that much easier, and for ensuring that the standards of this board are kept high.

 

Thank you kindly.

 

* * *

 

Legatus

(Ironically enough, there was a certain Primarch who was known and is still famed today for compiling a massive guide. msn-wink.gif )

 

True. But he didn't write it all himself, now did he? :o

 

I noticed you did not mention the Space Wolves in the section about the possible genetic origins for the DIY Chapter.

 

Damn. Always something. :wub:

 

Stuck a quick bit in about them.

 

I would perhaps also put the Dark Angels and the Salamanders at the lower end of the list, seeing as how the Dark Angels gene-seed is specifically stated to be used reluctantly (other than the White Scars or Iron Hands gene-seed) and how it is speculated whether the Salamanders even have any successors at all.

 

Except the Storm Giants and Black Dragons are generally conceded to be Salamanders' successors. It "appears likely" that they had successors according to IA: S, and the fact that their geneseed's quite pure makes it even more likely, IMO. Their apparent lack of successors has more to do with no one telling the Inquisition a particular Chapter's heritage, methinks.

 

The DA's purity is quite emphasised, they apparently have no weird quirks attached, they have all their organs, and they were more numerous than the Imperial Fists come the Second Founding. By rights, they should probably be the second-most common source. Being in a tie for third is still a lot lower than they should be. Plus, the Iron Hands and White Scars have actual flaws, which the DA do not - even reluctance would probably be balanced by practicality, IMO. Perhaps the White Scars should be a little higher up (due to numbers), but the Iron Hands are insane. Though it is a kind of insane the Mechanicus would agree with. I guess it depends who makes the decision on geneseed source.

 

* * *

 

elohimalpha:

 

Great stuff. I've already identified a few cliches in my DIY - justified cliches are still cliches, right? Time to see if they can be re-worked . . . dang it.

 

Cliches are often unavoidable. The trick is to avoid them as much as possible, and to throw your energies into them when they are unavoidable.

 

That's a long way of saying 'it depends'. :eek

 

Again, great resource - thanks for taking the time to make it!

 

It was my pleasure.

 

And I'm already pondering how to expand it. I need help.

 

* * *

 

The Shadowlord

 

A very well compiled and informative guide; thank you smile.gif

 

Thank you.

[Legatus]

(Ironically enough, there was a certain Primarch who was known and is still famed today for compiling a massive guide. msn-wink.gif )

True. But he didn't write it all himself, now did he? msn-wink.gif

I am sure you took a few pointers from somewhere. :) A certain Commissar Molotov is mentioned a few times.

 

 

Except the Storm Giants and Black Dragons are generally conceded to be Salamanders' successors. It "appears likely" that they had successors according to IA: S, and the fact that their geneseed's quite pure makes it even more likely, IMO. Their apparent lack of successors has more to do with no one telling the Inquisition a particular Chapter's heritage, methinks.

 

The DA's purity is quite emphasised, they apparently have no weird quirks attached, they have all their organs, and they were more numerous than the Imperial Fists come the Second Founding. By rights, they should probably be the second-most common source. Being in a tie for third is still a lot lower than they should be. Plus, the Iron Hands and White Scars have actual flaws, which the DA do not - even reluctance would probably be balanced by practicality, IMO. Perhaps the White Scars should be a little higher up (due to numbers), but the Iron Hands are insane. Though it is a kind of insane the Mechanicus would agree with. I guess it depends who makes the decision on geneseed source.

Even though the White Scars and Iron Hands gene-seed is suspected to have some issues, the articles do not go on to explain that this has led to a reduced use of their gene-seed. In case of the Iron Hands it seems that the issue is specifically local to that one Chapter, and not also an issue that is present with their successors. The Salamanders gene-seed "appears" to be stable and pure, but it is unknown whether their reduced reflexes are a genetic issue. And while some Chapters are suspected to be successors of the Salamanders, the Black Dragons in particular have raised further questions regarding the Salamanders' genetic purity. While the Dark Angels indeed have one of the purest gene-seed, they are specifically noted as being rarely used inspite of that. To me the Index Astartes Salamanders and Dark Angels seem to be very restrictive about the use of those Chapter's gene-seed, while the White Scars and Iron Hands articles refer to a few suspected issues but do not speak of a reduced use because of them.

 

But it is not a big issue. While the Ultramarines account for about 60% of existing Chapters, the Imperial Fists probably account for about 20%, and the remaining 20% are divided between White Scars, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Salamanders. The Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Salamanders are probably somewhere between 1-3%, while I would not really put the Dark Angels much higher than that either, leaving about 10-12% between the White Scars and Iron Hands.

So we are looking at White Scars, Salamanders, Dark Angels and Iron Hands accounting for either 1-3% of successors or 4-6%, which is not a big difference. Either way there are not a lot of Chapers made from their gene-seed, compared to the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. That I would put White Scars and Iron Hands in third place while you would put Dark Angels and Salamanders in third is more a matter of principle.

[Heru]

I don't agree with the geneseed priority list either. This would be mine:

 

1. Ultramarines

2. Imperial Fists

3. White Scars, Iron Hands (suspected issues)

4. Salamanders (visible mutation - black skin, red eyes), Dark Angels (High Lord Mistrust)

5. Raven Guard

 

I think suspected (but not proven) issues makes three more likely over open mutation and mistrust. I didn't even bother putting the Blood Angels on the list due to the fact they stopped using it after a random founding, though during the time it was used and the BA were keeping the issues generally under wraps, they'd most likely of been at 3 too.

[Aqui]

I've also spent a significant amount of time reading this, and it's a great improvement on something that was very good to start off with. I had read the previous version, but this one, despite it's size was far easier to read. It's actually given me the kick in the backside to get my IA and IT done (well, when I have time away from work and other things that is :) ), and hope to one day get the "Octa" treatment (even if it is a bowling ball to the face :wallbash: ) for either of them :P

 

This version is really comprehensive (as in really comprehensive) :rolleyes:

 

Thank you for sharing it with the board. It must have taken a serious amount of time to make it.

[Octavulg]

Legatus and Heru Talon:

 

Since both of you raise basically the same points.

 

The Salamanders are established as almost certainly having non-Second Founding successors, and the DA definitely do. The White Scars and Iron Hands are not.

 

The Salamanders' geneseed flaws could all be attributed to the high-heat, high-radiation, high-gravity climes of Nocturne. They are generally nice people, and do much good for the Imperium. In regard to the Black Dragons: "Recent questions regarding the purity of the Black Dragons' gene-seed has led to some Genetor-Biologis questioning the purity of their source zygotes, but the legacy and reputation of the Salamander has led to their detractors being openly ridiculed." - IA: S. That's right. People like the Salamanders so much they flat-out ridicule those who question them.

 

The Dark Angels, while they may be mistrusted, are established to have several non-Second Founding successors. They also have what is presumably the second or third purest geneseed, with no flaws. They also outnumbered the Iron Hands at the Second Founding.

 

The Iron Hands, conversely, are insane and incredibly overzealous in their pursuit of purity. They're dangerous and scary. Furthermore, they and their Second Founding successors barely communicate with each other, and are noted as being even more standoffish in relation to other Chapters. In short, they don't play well with others and appear dangerously insane to pretty much everyone except the Mechanicus. They're also less numerous than the Dark Angels.

 

The White Scars have flawed geneseed. Full stop. From IA: WS: "The gene-seed of the White Scars appears to be stable and initially displayed on aberrations or mutation. However, with the introduction of genetic material from the steppes tribesmen, the genome seems to have inherited their wild savagery and thirst for war...Whether such incidents are as a result of some inherent flaw in the White Scars` genetic material or came about after the integration of the tribesmen is unknown, but the Adeptus Mechanicus is eager to know which." The genome has inherited their thirst for war. The Adeptus Mechanicus wants to know whether that was an inherent flaw, or came about after the integration of the tribesmen - i.e. after the White Scars started recruiting from Chogoris. They may not have always had flawed geneseed, but they do now - and their successors are "all equally ferocious".

 

To sum up: The DA would rightly be the second-most common, and demonstrably have some successors after the Second Founding They may be mistrusted, but they're still clearly used. The Salamanders are held back by their reduced numbers, and may have some physical problems, but are widely liked and widely believed to be acceptable. The White Scars and Iron Hands, meanwhile, definitely have mental problems - which in one case are confirmed to be part of the geneseed, and in the other is "widely believed" to be so. Neither have any suggested official successors, let alone confirmed ones.

 

So...yeah.

 

* * *

 

Legatus:

 

I am sure you took a few pointers from somewhere. rolleyes.gif A certain Commissar Molotov is mentioned a few times.

 

There's a different between learning from others and writing something based on that learning and your own opinions, and compiling other people's work with additions of your own. This is the first. If I mashed this together with the Liber Guide, it'd be the second.

 

* * *

Aquilanus:

 

I've also spent a significant amount of time reading this, and it's a great improvement on something that was very good to start off with. I had read the previous version, but this one, despite it's size was far easier to read. It's actually given me the kick in the backside to get my IA and IT done (well, when I have time away from work and other things that is dry.gif ), and hope to one day get the "Octa" treatment (even if it is a bowling ball to the face msn-wink.gif ) for either of them happy.gif

 

Drop hints much? ;)

 

I'll have a look some time. And thank you. :)

 

Thank you for sharing it with the board. It must have taken a serious amount of time to make it.

 

I think it took a week of much-less-than-sustained effort. :)

 

The fact that most of it's reorganization was a large help.

Edited October 31, 2010 by Octavulg

[Aqui]

Drop hints much? :)

 

D'oh! Rumbled! :)

[Legatus]

The Salamanders are established as almost certainly having non-Second Founding successors, and the DA definitely do. The White Scars and Iron Hands are not.

I would postulate that a First or Second Founding Chapter's gene-seed being used for further Foundings is the default assumption, unless that was contradicted or questioned by the background. And I would see the issues raised in the Dark Angels and Salamanders Index Astartes as more inhibiting than the ones raised in the White Scars or Iron Hands Index Astartes. "The White Scars are quite aggressive" and "the Iron Hands have some bionics psychisis" is not as grave as "the High Lords are reluctant to use Dark Angels gene-seed" or "the Salamanders may not actually have any successors, allthough a few Chapters are suspected to be of their gene-seed". The White Scars and Iron Hands have a few issues. But the Index Astartes does not say that their gene-seed is not used because of those issues, just that the authorities are looking into it. With the Dark Angels and Salamanders you get specific statements that their gene-seed is not used as much as others'.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Alright, you are nothing if not devoted. I think I'll finally get around to making an actual IA for the Iron Flames and Purifiers(see sig). I may have to read this in bits and pieces though. One thing: I would go into a bit more detail about more mobile chapters in the homeworld section.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

It was bold and striking once. Now it's dull. :) Plus, if you remembered the brief, dark period where sixty-percent of Chapters on the front page of the Liber Astartes used black in a significant fashion (50%+ being 'significant', IIRC), you would not be so blase...

 

Oh the horror....

 

Things come and go, but some problems remain. Black being a popular shade because it is invariably 'cool' and Spartans and Romans being too-heavily-relied-upon cultural influences are other, non-colour scheme related issues that still pop up here and there.

 

The problem is that they usually pop up in groups, which makes their relative use in each individual chapter lessened since you are essentially reading about the same things told in (somewhat) different ways over and over again.

 

Colour schemes that are too similar tend to bleed together too.

 

Oh and Octavulg, personally directed to me? ;)

Edited November 1, 2010 by Grey Hunter Ydalir

[Octavulg]

Chapter Master Ignis Domus:

 

Alright, you are nothing if not devoted. I think I'll finally get around to making an actual IA for the Iron Flames and Purifiers(see sig). I may have to read this in bits and pieces though.

 

That's alright. At the moment, it hopefully is set up so you can start at the first section and read it as you go through the process. Before it was a little more scattershot.

 

One thing: I would go into a bit more detail about more mobile chapters in the homeworld section.

 

I should, actually. OTOH, you still might well end up describing similar principles - you just end up describing where you get recruits from, rather than where you live.

 

* * *

 

Legatus:

 

I would postulate that a First or Second Founding Chapter's gene-seed being used for further Foundings is the default assumption, unless that was contradicted or questioned by the background.

 

See, I'm not so sure. As I recall, the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are the most common geneseed choices in part because of their marked purity and because of their good relations with the Imperium (as well as numbers in the case of the Ultramarines) - thus, it seems reasonable to infer that Chapters whose genetic legacy is less than pure or who have poorer relations with the Imperium will be less popular choices for Foundings.

 

Furthermore, while it might be a default assumption, the fact remains that we have two examples of almost-confirmed Salamander successors and several examples of DA ones, and none of Iron Hands or White Scars (or Raven Guard, for that matter). Furthermore, the language of the White Scars IA is actually exclusionary toward other White Scars successors (though that could be just slightly poor word choice): "The White Scars successor Chapters, the Rampagers, Marauders, Destroyers and the Storm Lords are all equally ferocious and fine examples of the combat teachings of Jaghatai Khan." The comma makes the language exclusionary - these are the White Scars successor Chapters, and there are no others. I honestly doubt that's what was intended, though.

 

Logic dictates that priority is dictated based on genetic purity, relationship with the Imperium, and numbers. On that basis, the Iron Hands are manifestly unsuitable. The White Scars lack purity, and their bloodthirstiness has apparently impacted their performance on certain occasions. Thus, I assume they'd be less common than the Salamanders or Dark Angels (though their numbers might allow them to make up that difference).

 

"the Salamanders may not actually have any successors, allthough a few Chapters are suspected to be of their gene-seed".

 

It's past suspicion into assumption, frankly. And the IA series is one of the GW fluff pieces from when the separation of the Astartes from the Imperium was quite emphasized - the only successors anyone seems to be sure about are the Second Founding ones.

 

The White Scars and Iron Hands have a few issues. But the Index Astartes does not say that their gene-seed is not used because of those issues, just that the authorities are looking into it. With the Dark Angels and Salamanders you get specific statements that their gene-seed is not used as much as others'.

 

Technically, you only get that with the Dark Angels (the Salamanders are mentioned as not having any known successors. Difference). And even then, all it says is "reluctant". That could be anything from every time they do it they shake their heads and go "geez, I wish we had another Chapter with pure geneseed" to "never use it unless forced".

 

* * *

 

Ydalir:

 

Oh the horror....

 

My hands still shake when I think about it...

 

Oh and Octavulg, personally directed to me? tongue.gif

 

Read the section on outlining. Read it again.

 

Then make a damn outline and finish your IA! You commented on the first draft of the Ice Lords, dammit! That was three years ago. It's about time you finished a first draft of your own! :verymad: :rolleyes:

[NightrawenII]

But it is not a big issue. While the Ultramarines account for about 60% of existing Chapters, the Imperial Fists probably account for about 20%, and the remaining 20% are divided between White Scars, Iron Hands, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Salamanders. The Blood Angels, Raven Guard and Salamanders are probably somewhere between 1-3%, while I would not really put the Dark Angels much higher than that either, leaving about 10-12% between the White Scars and Iron Hands.

So we are looking at White Scars, Salamanders, Dark Angels and Iron Hands accounting for either 1-3% of successors or 4-6%, which is not a big difference. Either way there are not a lot of Chapers made from their gene-seed, compared to the Ultramarines and the Imperial Fists. That I would put White Scars and Iron Hands in third place while you would put Dark Angels and Salamanders in third is more a matter of principle.

And there lies a trap, IF the C: Space Marines 5th ed. is anything to go(I know, i know....), then there is only 20 Imperial Fists successors.

 

For me the table is:

Ultramarines.

Imperial Fists (ignoring the Mattwardiness)

Dark Angels (mistrust of HLofT), White Scars (problems with psychology)

Salamanders (questionable purity, no-known successor), Iron Hands (questionable psychology)

Blood Angels, Ravenguard (outright flaws of gene-seed)

[Legatus]

And there lies a trap, IF the C: Space Marines 5th ed. is anything to go(I know, i know....), then there is only 20 Imperial Fists successors.

Are you refering to the feast of blades? It has twelve Chapters regularly participating, but it does not claim that it is the entirety of the Imperial Fists successors. Or were you refering to something else?

[Reyner]

Good guide Octavulg. I'll be using this when I finally start working on my IA again.

[Ace Debonair]

Are their particular weapons, equipment or methods they favor?

Spotted a typo. Or is that a grammar-o?

 

Nevertheless, it's the only one I spotted. ^_^

 

Many people have taken to using quotes in their IAs below the various section headers, including myself. In fact, I have a worrying suspicion I may have started the practice.

I know a lot of people stole the idea from me right after I stole it from you. (And most of them at the time brazenly told me they were doing it. :) )

So yeah, that's probably your influence. ;)

[Shinzaren]

I know a lot of people stole the idea from me right after I stole it from you. (And most of them at the time brazenly told me they were doing it.)

 

Just so the two of you are aware, there will be future thievery on this. I plan on thieving this idea for my own IA here very shortly. Thanks in advance for your understanding on my thievery. Thieving is good. I like thieving. And I also like the word thieving.

[Ace Debonair]

I know a lot of people stole the idea from me right after I stole it from you. (And most of them at the time brazenly told me they were doing it.)

 

Just so the two of you are aware, there will be future thievery on this. I plan on thieving this idea for my own IA here very shortly. Thanks in advance for your understanding on my thievery. Thieving is good. I like thieving. And I also like the word thieving.

 

I would never have guessed. :)

I'll just add your name to the tally of people who have brazenly stolen the idea I stole, then. ^_^

[Aqui]

I know a lot of people stole the idea from me right after I stole it from you. (And most of them at the time brazenly told me they were doing it.)

 

Just so the two of you are aware, there will be future thievery on this. I plan on thieving this idea for my own IA here very shortly. Thanks in advance for your understanding on my thievery. Thieving is good. I like thieving. And I also like the word thieving.

 

I would never have guessed. :)

I'll just add your name to the tally of people who have brazenly stolen the idea I stole, then. ^_^

 

The quotes thing reminds me of Robert Aspirin and lately Terry Pratchett.

 

I have considered doing such a thing for mine, but would hate to be seen as a rip off ;)

[Octavulg]

Ace Debonair

 

Spotted a typo. Or is that a grammar-o?

 

Nevertheless, it's the only one I spotted. happy.gif

 

I'm perfectly happy with a 0.00004% failure rate. :P

 

And fixed. Thanks for spotting it. :)

 

I know a lot of people stole the idea from me right after I stole it from you. (And most of them at the time brazenly told me they were doing it. laugh.gif )

So yeah, that's probably your influence. msn-wink.gif

 

I was sure I stole it from someone myself, but I can't for the life of me figure out who.

 

I was thinking it was the Steel Ghosts, but they don't have them either. Also, the formatting on that IA is getting worse and worse. Darn.

 

* * *

 

Shinzaren

 

Just so the two of you are aware, there will be future thievery on this. I plan on thieving this idea for my own IA here very shortly. Thanks in advance for your understanding on my thievery. Thieving is good. I like thieving. And I also like the word thieving.

 

Honestly, it's the easiest way I've ever seen to add neat little details to an IA. Fitting details in smoothly can be awkward. Fitting quotes? Dead easy.

 

If you didn't steal it, I'd probably be more upset. :P

 

Thief.

 

* * *

 

Aquilanus

 

The quotes thing reminds me of Robert Aspirin and lately Terry Pratchett.

 

Asprin, maybe. But Pratchett? He doesn't have chapters.

 

Joel Rosenberg'd be another.

 

I have considered doing such a thing for mine, but would hate to be seen as a rip off msn-wink.gif

 

Do it. Do it now. It is there to be ripped off.

Edited November 1, 2010 by Octavulg

[Ace Debonair]

The quotes thing reminds me of Robert Aspirin and lately Terry Pratchett.

I suppose the stuff in Going Postal and Making Money might count, although they're more of a cryptic summary of what you're about to read.

Jasper Fforde's Thursday Next series has the best chater-opening-quotes, to my mind, although they're a bit long for an IA.

 

Anyway. What it should remind you of is all the IAs that use them. :)

[Aqui]

Aquilanus

 

The quotes thing reminds me of Robert Aspirin and lately Terry Pratchett.

 

Asprin, maybe. But Pratchett? He doesn't have chapters.

 

Joel Rosenberg'd be another.

 

I have considered doing such a thing for mine, but would hate to be seen as a rip off msn-wink.gif

 

Do it. Do it now. It is there to be ripped off.

 

His later stuff does have chapters now (roughly from Going Postal onwards). Having checked "Making Money", the beginning of each chapter doesn't have quotes as such (I need to check before I post :) ), but a little list of words that describe what's going to happen in it (a sound bite I suppose they could be called....). An unusual way of doing things, especially for him as, as you have already said, he never had chapters before....

 

But, as I have been given the green light, I'll "adopt" the idea ^_^

 

Edit: Ace Ninja'd me! :P :P

Edited November 1, 2010 by Aquilanus

[Octavulg]

These days, I pretend Pratchett's not writing Discworld any more. Keeps me from disappointment...:P

 

Either way, I evidently didn't steal them from him, though. :)

Edited November 1, 2010 by Octavulg

[Aqui]

These days, I pretend Pratchett's not writing Discworld any more. Keeps me from disappointment...:)

 

I have heard that he's wrapping up DW (for various reasons not just because of his health)

 

A sad moment when the last one comes :P