Sanquinary Guard

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hi guys

i was thinking on getting some San guard for a BA force and i was wondering if i should get it.

What do you guys think about them?

[Chaplain Gunzhard]

It depends on what else you are fielding. I love Dante, and they are like pees and carrots with Dante... I also always have at least 2 RAS and usually 2 Priests with JPs (one with the SG). If the rest of your force can at least stun your opponents ap2 (or better) blast templates, then they will take a ridiculous beating and keep on trucking. If your opponent has no AP2 blast stuff then they can shield the rest of your units quite nicely... even if you lose a few to bad rolling your opponent has sunk a crazy amount of ammo at them.

 

I know there are so more efficient units on paper, but imo they are worth it, and the models are so awesome.

[Zeller]

Here are some links to SG related issues back through 4 pages of searching keywords Sanguinary Gaurd. The last link is included for any future inquiries since this topic pops up every other week or so.

 

Sanguinary Guard Army

 

Sanguinary Guard Weapon loadout

 

Terminators or Sanguinary Guard

 

Sanguinary Guard: Deathmasks and walkers

 

Sanguinary Guard: Fluff discussion

 

Sanguinary Guard: Is this build over the top?

 

Sanguinary Guard as troop choices

 

The search bar

 

Perhaps we need a Blood Angel's primer. :tu:

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

A few days ago I posted a batrep where my Sang Guard totally shined like the brightest golden nipples out there!

 

I feel they are worth it, but take a finesse to play correctly. They have 2+ armor but are no invulnerable and their low numbers make adding IC to them dangerous. But if used well, they can literally slaughter.

 

Check out the batrep below to see how I used them and what they did:

1700 Pts vs Orkz Batrep

[jbarket]

The one problem I have with SG is the lack of an invulnerable save.

 

With a jumper list, you should have an easy time taking care of your opponent's save denying plates as suggested above, but the problem I see is against other armies that run a significant number of PWs.

 

My forever opponent's second army is a Deathwing/Loganwing all termie army, and it goes without saying that every single unit in his army denies a 2+ armor save and FNP in close combat.

 

Against an opponent like that, I don't see how they're any better than HG with JPs for less points.

[Leonaides]

Because they look better? Besides, they all come with a Glaive - and if you've half way clever, there'll be a priest somewhere nearby and maybe Sanguinor or they'll have the banner so thats 20-25 S5 I5 attacks, with 5 re-rolls to hit, that termie squad should be making 15+ saves before it even gets a chance to swing (without any wounds from pre-charge shooting - another 3 saves on avarage. And if you cant make those odds work in your favour, you're doing something seriously wrong.

[jbarket]

My HG are a kit bash of SG and DC... so nothing looks better, haha.

 

That's a very good point. I wasn't thinking through how much more effective they would be with all power weapons. My HG actually do very well against termies in general thanks to FC and the banner (and 4 melta shots before they rush in), but it's defeating that save that's difficult.

 

With all PW, the SG are definitely cheaper too.

[Redfinger]

The one problem I have with SG is the lack of an invulnerable save.

 

With a jumper list, you should have an easy time taking care of your opponent's save denying plates as suggested above, but the problem I see is against other armies that run a significant number of PWs.

 

My forever opponent's second army is a Deathwing/Loganwing all termie army, and it goes without saying that every single unit in his army denies a 2+ armor save and FNP in close combat.

 

Against an opponent like that, I don't see how they're any better than HG with JPs for less points.

 

 

I think this comment reinforces why I feel that BA are a synergy based army. The units that are chosen must support and synergize with one another, you need harmony. I have had great success w/ my SG lately as I have really focused on making things easier for them to chew up. I run a jump list, one thing that I have found that really works is combat squadding your RAS, and using the SG as a cleanup crew to then free your RAS on the next turn to charge something else. Also prior to a charge by SG, softening up your opponent with melta and bolt pistol love from surrounding combat squads is a great way to thin them out. Lastly, try not to have your SG be the only unit charging, get a second combat squad in on the next round, it is like playing leap frog, from one combat to the next!

 

Ashton

[Br0ther Rafen]

Hey guys, just got an idea.

What about San Guard and a San Priest in a Stormravn?

They can move between 1&-24 inches(not sure which) and can still disembark and assault. What do you guys think?

[SamaNagol]

sanguinary guard have absolutely nothign to fear from units with power weapons. when you get the charge, those units will be wiped out before they can swing back. unless you are playing Eldar.

[igotsmeakabob!!]

I imagine a Jump Librarian with Shield would be quite welcome.

[Crynn]

Because they look better? Besides, they all come with a Glaive - and if you've half way clever, there'll be a priest somewhere nearby and maybe Sanguinor or they'll have the banner so thats 20-25 S5 I5 attacks, with 5 re-rolls to hit, that termie squad should be making 15+ saves before it even gets a chance to swing (without any wounds from pre-charge shooting - another 3 saves on avarage. And if you cant make those odds work in your favour, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 

It has been mathamatically proven that hg with LC's and other wargear equaling the sang guards point cost will out perform them when charging terminators. So if your taking sg over hg to kill terminators then it is YOU who is doing something seriously wrong. also if you have sang guard with a priest it is twice the kill points as the hg and the priest cant be targeted directly withing the HG. Sang guard are cool but if you want to play a tougher list HG are the better choice.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Oh our daily dose of criticism. :D

 

Welcome back Crynn.

 

0b :)

[Leonaides]

so i cause 18 wounds on a 5 man deathwing squad, you cause maybe 22? Whoopdedo... They'll still be dead. I wouldn't take sg to deal with terms but the op was specifically concerned with how sg would fare against a squad who would deny both the 2+ and the fnp. So i pointed out that the sg ought to be more than capable of killing the entire term squad before any get to attack back. Should i go on?

[bulley]

SG in a DOA army can be brutal if used in the right way, certainly. Up to S7 on the charge if they get a priest in there, and with Dante they can become surgical strikers.

 

I do like them, but for me running mech I just opt'd for the tooled up honor guard (free priest was what did it for me) or I'll run a LR assault term squad (point goodness!)

[igotsmeakabob!!]

SG in a DOA army can be brutal if used in the right way, certainly. Up to S7 on the charge if they get a priest in there, and with Dante they can become surgical strikers.

What? How do they get +3 strength?

[Arkio]

i'd wager he things glaive encarmines are relic weapons as well as being master crafted, RTFC (Read the Full Codex)

[Redfinger]

Because they look better? Besides, they all come with a Glaive - and if you've half way clever, there'll be a priest somewhere nearby and maybe Sanguinor or they'll have the banner so thats 20-25 S5 I5 attacks, with 5 re-rolls to hit, that termie squad should be making 15+ saves before it even gets a chance to swing (without any wounds from pre-charge shooting - another 3 saves on avarage. And if you cant make those odds work in your favour, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 

It has been mathamatically proven that hg with LC's and other wargear equaling the sang guards point cost will out perform them when charging terminators. So if your taking sg over hg to kill terminators then it is YOU who is doing something seriously wrong. also if you have sang guard with a priest it is twice the kill points as the hg and the priest cant be targeted directly withing the HG. Sang guard are cool but if you want to play a tougher list HG are the better choice.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

 

I will have to look into this, but I am pretty sure you are not incorperating the cost of the jp's into your considerations. That being said then, if we assume the SG are paying the 50 points to be able have jump packs and DOA like the HG would, then getting 5 MC power weapons and 5 rapid fire bolter shots and being able to charge, and having a 2+ save seems to be a hell of a deal.

 

Now your logic seems sound if you were using a foot based or mech list, however when you go with an all DOA list, then the HG loadout you suggested would be too expensive, the SG would be a more reasonable choice.

 

Ashton

[Black Memories]

Because they look better? Besides, they all come with a Glaive - and if you've half way clever, there'll be a priest somewhere nearby and maybe Sanguinor or they'll have the banner so thats 20-25 S5 I5 attacks, with 5 re-rolls to hit, that termie squad should be making 15+ saves before it even gets a chance to swing (without any wounds from pre-charge shooting - another 3 saves on avarage. And if you cant make those odds work in your favour, you're doing something seriously wrong.

 

It has been mathamatically proven that hg with LC's and other wargear equaling the sang guards point cost will out perform them when charging terminators. So if your taking sg over hg to kill terminators then it is YOU who is doing something seriously wrong. also if you have sang guard with a priest it is twice the kill points as the hg and the priest cant be targeted directly withing the HG. Sang guard are cool but if you want to play a tougher list HG are the better choice.

 

Regards

 

Crynn

 

 

That isn't even close to accurate point wise. I normally run SG with a banner, infernus pistol, and powerfist when I seldom do play them. That runs 250 for the unit. An honor guard similarly equipped with jump packs, power weapons, infernus pistol, and a power fist costs 280. They get a 3+ instead of a 2+ but they get feel no pain and furious charge, but they also lose power weapon attacks from a model in the unit. Now, if you want furious charge for the sanguinary guard and get them a sang. priest with a jp/pw then maybe you can make an argument that it's more cost effective, but realize what you're doing is adding a major character to augment the sanguinary guard (and realistically the best possible character to argument them with at a lower cost than any other main HQ choice). The honor guard requires a more expensive character than a sang priest because it would just make the entire purpose of having a cheap, untargetable priest pointless, so you're looking at 125 min points from then on. Infact based on the point costs below you could almost buy a chaplain with a jump pack to augment the Sang guard even more on the charge. A chaplain with jp and then there's no question as to which unit is by far the more effective one while charging terminators (hell you even get an additional ws 5 guy). Sang guard, for their points, are more offensively potent and effectively augmentable on the charge for their points than the HG, period.

 

So in review: Sang guard + augmenting character = 340 (with a chaplain 465)

 

Honor guard with similar equipment + augmenting character = 405-435 (depending on lib/chaplain or reclusiarch).

 

That said, I think the idea of the comparison is dumb. You don't buy an honor guard to fill the sanguinary guard's role. You buy the death company or assault squads something else for that (mass troop killing). The honor guard are essentially tough, compacted, power armored, easily-transported assault terminators that can sweeping advance or very mobile special weapons batteries. So I don't really get why there is a comparison to begin with.

 

Personally, I run a smaller, tougher, elite troop army. Thus I prefer the staying power of the honor guard (added defenses through wargear etc). Yes, it costs a lot, but I've found they're a pretty tough bunch and suit my style of play. Also they're almost always a hit, where as my Sanguiary guard either do something amazing, or totally flop due to their glass cannon nature.

[Redfinger]

So in review: Sang guard + augmenting character = 340 (with a chaplain 465)

 

 

One problem with thism SG wouldnt benefit from this charecter, MC glaives give them a re-roll to missed hit anyways, I dont think they would stack, I could be wrong though.

[Rybnick]

QUOTE (Black Memories @ Nov 3 2010, 05:21 PM)

So in review: Sang guard + augmenting character = 340 (with a chaplain 465)

 

 

 

One problem with thism SG wouldnt benefit from this charecter, MC glaives give them a re-roll to missed hit anyways, I dont think they would stack, I could be wrong though.

The way I've handled this in the past is by making use of one rule or the other, ie whichever rule is better superceedes the other.

 

In my case it's generally a Librarian with Unleashed Rage that breaks apart from his ASM squad and joins up with my SG. In assault as long as the Libby succesfully uses Unleashed Rage I reroll everything, if he fails/gets shut down by a hood etc then I use the MC status of the SG's swords. Not sure if that is how this is meant to b eplayed, but at my local shop this is what we've all agreed upon.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Also, kitting one with a power fist is a waste of their biggest asset: Fast Powerweapon attacks with rerolls. One Power Fist is often the difference between no counter attacks and some counter attacks from what you charge. And without inv save, that counter attack can be painful if it is a power weapon.

 

I agree that the Sang Guard and Honour Guard do not fill the same role so should not be compared. But if we do, I want to add one thing: In the honour guard you will want to have the Sang Nov alive as long as possible, and because it can't be singled out it has a better chance of staying alive. But that also means that your no powerweapon guy lives longer than all your power weapon guys. So if 2 Sang Guard survive, they usually have more killing power than 2 honour guard models. And that killing power after losses is also worth a few plus points for the Sang Guard.

[Black Memories]

QUOTE (Black Memories @ Nov 3 2010, 05:21 PM)

So in review: Sang guard + augmenting character = 340 (with a chaplain 465)

 

 

 

One problem with thism SG wouldnt benefit from this charecter, MC glaives give them a re-roll to missed hit anyways, I dont think they would stack, I could be wrong though.

The way I've handled this in the past is by making use of one rule or the other, ie whichever rule is better superceedes the other.

 

In my case it's generally a Librarian with Unleashed Rage that breaks apart from his ASM squad and joins up with my SG. In assault as long as the Libby succesfully uses Unleashed Rage I reroll everything, if he fails/gets shut down by a hood etc then I use the MC status of the SG's swords. Not sure if that is how this is meant to b eplayed, but at my local shop this is what we've all agreed upon.

 

 

That's 100% how you play it. The chaplain's reroll on the charge or unleashed rage supersede the master crafted weapons, I wasn't counting master crafted swords plus the rerolls, just the chaplain rerolls. The chaplain or lib increases this effectiveness because on average you're going to miss 2 attacks per SG model against terminators (standard of comparison here) and you only get 1 reroll per model. With a chaplain's reroll if one guy hits all 4 and the other guy misses all 4, you'd only get 1 reroll with the swords instead of 4 rerolls with the chaplain. Major advantage. Chaplain also adds another character with furious charge/and rerolls, and 5 more power weapon attacks at strength 5. Eventually the amount of attacks from a SG guard squad becomes overwhelming and truly kind of redundant against terminator-sized squads.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Buffing the squad of SG to reroll hits is kind of a waste with the glaives. Just saying... ;)

 

0b

[Zid]

In a word... no. I honestly like Assault termis way more than sang guard. Slower, yes, but tougher with the shields.