Night Lords Pre-Heresy organzation

[Gree]

A simple question, Pre-Heresy how where the Night Lords organised?

 

Collected Visions has the Pre-Heresy Legions organised into various chapter-equivalent's. ''Referred to as Grand Companies, Wings, Chapters, etc, etc''

 

However the novels contridict this at various points. The Emperor's Children for example had 30 Grand Companies in their Index astartes article. Yet in Fulgrim no Grand Companies show up at all and they are seemingly organized into battle companies. Only two Lord Commanders appear.

 

In Soul Hunter there is no refrence to Chapter Masters or anything like that. Indeed, the highest rank seems to be Captain. The 10th Company seems closer to a Post-Heresy battle company than a Pre-Heresy chapter or a Grand Company. Talos's comments imply that the 10th numbers around a hundred Astartes Pre-Heresy, while the Covenant of Blood is said to have a holding capacity of three hundred Astartes.

 

Does anyone else have any more information on this subject?

[Legatus]

Unfortunately the Night Lords Index Astartes does not include a passage about their organisation. But Curze is describes as rarely having used anything other than excessive and decisive force. That plus the fact that in some Black Library novels the Night Lords were described as having an entire (!) grand company of Raptors to me suggests that they were perhaps not organised for efficiency. They probably had a very rigid and simple organisation. Curze is described in the Index Astartes as having been very good at grasping unusual strategies and tactics (which probably refers to the special field of psychological warfare), but Dorn is also often said to have been a very gifted strategist and tactician, and his Legion was said to have been organised inefficiently and rigidly in the Index Astartes Imperial Fists as well.

 

 

The Emperor's Children for example had 30 Grand Companies in their Index astartes article. Yet in Fulgrim no Grand Companies show up at all and they are seemingly organized into battle companies.

In my Index Astartes it sas the Emperor's Children had 30 companies when he joined with Horus. That would amount to about 3000 Marines. Sources about the Second Founding often explain that the unit called "Chapter" had already been existing during the Great Cursade, so it seems obvious that those "Chapters" (or Grand Companies) would also have been sub-divided into Companies. For example, the novel Tales of Heresy contains a Dark Angels story (IIRC) from the Great Crusade where a single "Chapter Master" has three Captains with him on his battle barge. A battle barge is known to be able to house three current day companies, so apparently the "Chapter" refered to in that story also consisted of several 100 man Companies, each led by a Captain.

[Gree]

The Emperor's Children for example had 30 Grand Companies in their Index astartes article. Yet in Fulgrim no Grand Companies show up at all and they are seemingly organized into battle companies.

In my Index Astartes it sas the Emperor's Children had 30 companies when he joined with Horus. That would amount to about 3000 Marines. Sources about the Second Founding often explain that the unit called "Chapter" had already been existing during the Great Cursade, so it seems obvious that those "Chapters" (or Grand Companies) would also have been sub-divided into Companies. For example, the novel Tales of Heresy contains a Dark Angels story (IIRC) from the Great Crusade where a single "Chapter Master" has three Captains with him on his battle barge. A battle barge is known to be able to house three current day companies, so apparently the "Chapter" refered to in that story also consisted of several 100 man Companies, each led by a Captain.

 

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies. And the novel Fulgrim implies much more than a mere three thousand Marines. And there has to be more than three thousand Marines. Going by Galaxy in Flames a minimum of several hundred Emperor's Children are killed in purging of the loyalists. More will die at Istavaan V. Add the Legion Wars in the Eye (Where the Emperor's Children basically fought everybody) and ten thousand years of warfare and it would be a miracle that even a few hundred Emperor's Children Astartes are alive.

 

Going by the Horus Heresy novels the Emperor's Children have to be way bigger than 3000 Astartes to survive the kinds of losses they took at both Istavaan's and the Legion Wars plus the millenia of raiding and Black Crusades.

 

Chapters of varying sizes appear in First Heretic. A Word Bearer mentions chapters of twenty companies or more, while the Chapter of the Serrated Sun is around seven companies strong.

[Inquisitor Engel]

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies. And the novel Fulgrim implies much more than a mere three thousand Marines. And there has to be more than three thousand Marines. Going by Galaxy in Flames a minimum of several hundred Emperor's Children are killed in purging of the loyalists. More will die at Istavaan V. Add the Legion Wars in the Eye (Where the Emperor's Children basically fought everybody) and ten thousand years of warfare and it would be a miracle that even a few hundred Emperor's Children Astartes are alive.

 

Don't forget the Chaos Legions replenish their Legions with Gene Seed (often stolen) and slaves, often forcing slaves to become CSM. It's how Fabius Bile stays in business and alive. They may not replenish at the rate of Loyalist Marines, but they do replenish.

[Gree]

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies. And the novel Fulgrim implies much more than a mere three thousand Marines. And there has to be more than three thousand Marines. Going by Galaxy in Flames a minimum of several hundred Emperor's Children are killed in purging of the loyalists. More will die at Istavaan V. Add the Legion Wars in the Eye (Where the Emperor's Children basically fought everybody) and ten thousand years of warfare and it would be a miracle that even a few hundred Emperor's Children Astartes are alive.

 

Don't forget the Chaos Legions replenish their Legions with Gene Seed (often stolen) and slaves, often forcing slaves to become CSM. It's how Fabius Bile stays in business and alive. They may not replenish at the rate of Loyalist Marines, but they do replenish.

 

True, but as you said it's not fast and it's not easy. If 3000 Marines went through the events of Istavaan III and V and then into the Legion Wars right after I would hardly expect any, if all left to start recruiting at all. By the time the Legion reached the Eye after Horus's death at Terra there should be barly a few hundred Marines left. And even then it's going to take alot of time and resources to rebuild, but as we know the EC fought everybody in the Eye during the Legion Wars.

 

The EC here always a small Legion, yes, but 3000 men is not a Legion, especially in the newer Horus Heresy novels were it seems the average Legion is tens of thousands of men. The Thousand Sons and the Space Wolves are noted as pretty small Legions, but both have at least roughly ten thousand Astartes going by A Thousand Sons. In First Heretic, the Word Bearers, noted as the second largest, have 100,000 men. Some of the Word Bearers Chapters are stated in the novel to have more than twenty companies. If the EC really have 3000 then then the Word Bearers have individual chapters that almost equal the entire military strength of the EC.

 

EDIt: After reading Galaxy in Flames, the Emperor's Children are indeed confirmed to be ''more than ten thousand Astartes'' by Tarvitz.

[Legatus]

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies.

That does not mean that those Grand Companiye are not also sub divided into Companies. The Index Astartes Emperor's Children speaks of 30 "Companies", and at another point even specifically refers to "Battle Companies".

 

 

And the novel Fulgrim implies much more than a mere three thousand Marines. And there has to be more than three thousand Marines. Going by Galaxy in Flames a minimum of several hundred Emperor's Children are killed in purging of the loyalists. More will die at Istavaan V. Add the Legion Wars in the Eye (Where the Emperor's Children basically fought everybody) and ten thousand years of warfare and it would be a miracle that even a few hundred Emperor's Children Astartes are alive.

 

Going by the Horus Heresy novels the Emperor's Children have to be way bigger than 3000 Astartes to survive the kinds of losses they took at both Istavaan's and the Legion Wars plus the millenia of raiding and Black Crusades.

I thought it was widely known by now that the Index Astartes articles (and most Codices) assume a strength of 10,000 per average Legion while the Horus Heresy novels generally assume a strength of 100,000. Obviously in comparison with the Black Library novels the number given in the EC Index Astartes article would seem ridiculously small for a Legion. But then the 12,000 Iron Warriors given in their Index Astartes would not be a lot better when measured against a 100,000 strong Legion of the novels.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

In Raven's Flight, Corax laments that he came to Istvaan with almost 80,000 Astartes and left with less than 3,000. Given that, I think it's safe to assume that some, if not all, Legions were close to the 100K mark, with the Ultramarines and Word Bearers being the largest.

[Hrvat]

Just to add not all companies were 100 strong. Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus were 600 strong.

[Gree]

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies.

That does not mean that those Grand Companiye are not also sub divided into Companies. The Index Astartes Emperor's Children speaks of 30 "Companies", and at another point even specifically refers to "Battle Companies".

 

No, in Index Astartes a Lord Commander leads a Company. In Fulgrim, Captains lead companies. Only two Lord Commanders are seen.

 

Actually on the whole Grand Company thing I got confused. (I'm used to the whole Grand Company thing over at EC.net)

 

Going over the Index Astartes once again and Fulgrim the Index Astartes seems to use Lord Commanders interchangeably as the Captain rank (Although Captains are mentioned briefly). Wheras in Fulgrim we have standard Captains and the only Lord Commanders seem to function as Fulgrim's lieutenants.

 

I thought it was widely known by now that the Index Astartes articles (and most Codices) assume a strength of 10,000 per average Legion while the Horus Heresy novels generally assume a strength of 100,000. Obviously in comparison with the Black Library novels the number given in the EC Index Astartes article would seem ridiculously small for a Legion. But then the 12,000 Iron Warriors given in their Index Astartes would not be a lot better when measured against a 100,000 strong Legion of the novels.

 

Well Galaxy in Flames already states that there are ''more than ten thousand'' Emperor's Children. If the Emperor's Children have 30 Companies in the novels then they are probably going to be much larger than battle companies to get those kind of numbers.

 

And actually after reading Raven's Flight and First Heretic the average strength of the Legions is not 100,000. (It's definitely more than 10,000 though) The Word Bearers consist of 100,000 Astartes and are referred to as the second largest among the Legions, while the Raven Guard are 80,000. Going by the size of Loken's company and if we take that as average the Luna Wolves would number in the tens of thousands.

 

But really, that's not my question. I'm more interested about the Night Lords really. Did they use Chapters? How where Raptors organised and suchlike?

 

If A-D-B could clarify then that would be great.

[Legatus]

No, in Index Astartes a Lord Commander leads a Company. In Fulgrim, Captains lead companies. Only two Lord Commanders are seen.

From the Emperor's Children Index Astartes (IA1, p. 26):

 

"From the growing ranks of his Legion, Fulgrim selected a few individuals, the bravest, stringest and noblest, to become Lord Commanders, each given charge over a full battle company."

 

And later on page 27:

 

"By the time Fulgrim jpined the Warmaster in rebellion his Legion comprised 30 Companies, each led by a Lord Commander, a charistmatic individual who embodied the best qualities of a Space Marine."

 

So it seems the novel "Fulgrim" deviates a bit from the organisation that was set up by the Index Astartes. Though to be honest I would usually associate the title of "Lord Commander" with a Chapter Master instead of a Captain. Perhaps the Index Astartes author (Chris Cook) got the title confused.

 

 

Well Galaxy in Flames already states that there are ''more than ten thousand'' Emperor's Children. If the Emperor's Children have 30 Companies in the novels then they are probably going to be much larger than battle companies to get those kind of numbers.

That is because the Index Astartes gave a size of the Emperor's Children Legion compared to a 10,000 string average Legion, while the novels were calculating and comparing to 100,000 string Legions.

 

 

But really, that's not my question. I'm more interested about the Night Lords really. Did they use Chapters? How where Raptors organised and suchlike?

IIRC they were described as using "Grand Companies", and in particular they apparently had one Grand Company with nothing but Raptors. But I only remember reading that in posts here, not where that is from. It may have been from "Lord of the Night". IIRC in "Soul Hunter" A D-B used the usual 100 company sizes. At least I think Talos' warband had originally been a 100 at full strength.

[Gree]

No, in Index Astartes a Lord Commander leads a Company. In Fulgrim, Captains lead companies. Only two Lord Commanders are seen.

From the Emperor's Children Index Astartes (IA1, p. 26):

 

"From the growing ranks of his Legion, Fulgrim selected a few individuals, the bravest, stringest and noblest, to become Lord Commanders, each given charge over a full battle company."

 

And later on page 27:

 

"By the time Fulgrim jpined the Warmaster in rebellion his Legion comprised 30 Companies, each led by a Lord Commander, a charistmatic individual who embodied the best qualities of a Space Marine."

 

I already know that and I've noted that in my previous post.

 

So it seems the novel "Fulgrim" deviates a bit from the organisation that was set up by the Index Astartes. Though to be honest I would usually associate the title of "Lord Commander" with a Chapter Master instead of a Captain. Perhaps the Index Astartes author (Chris Cook) got the title confused.

 

It's more than a bit. Each Lord Commander in the Index Astartes leads a Company. In Fulgrim a Captain leads a Company and the only two Lord Commanders (Vespasian and Eidolon) are not shown to lead any single Company at all.

 

That is because the Index Astartes gave a size of the Emperor's Children Legion compared to a 10,000 string average Legion, while the novels were calculating and comparing to 100,000 string Legions.

 

That's why I said if they have 30 companies like in the IA.

 

IIRC they were described as using "Grand Companies", and in particular they apparently had one Grand Company with nothing but Raptors. But I only remember reading that in posts here, not where that is from. It may have been from "Lord of the Night". IIRC in "Soul Hunter" A D-B used the usual 100 company sizes. At least I think Talos' warband had originally been a 100 at full strength.

 

Where are the Night Lords described as using Grand Companies? Does this appear in Lord of the Night? Because I can't find any reference to that at all for the Night Lords. In Soul Hunter and First Heretic there is no mention of Grand Companies at all for the Night Lords.

[Dark Mechanicum]

Each Legion had its own name for them. Most of the Legions used Company or Grand Company. Others didn't such as the Space Wolves which was Clan, and who knows maybe the Night Lords used Gang or something. There isn't enough information about the Night Lords Pre-Heresy breakdown of troops. I would bet that the 10th was the company name and that Talos was a part of the command squad.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

look at the number of loyalist legions today over like 1000 time that by 9 thats 1000 at bwteween 500-1000 strong x 100= = 1000000 now thats just loyalists, so thats a million all can trace themself s back to their parent legions and such, but i think after the hh the only chapter to have more my ofbeen the ultramarines as they had a slamm emprie at their disposal and didnt suffer no wherenear as many casualties at the istanv masacre, whcih is why i assume they were able to recruit os many from the ultramar segemntum and why they were all broken up.

[Purge The Weak]

On the EC, this brings up a point. I believe in flight of the eisenstien tarvits says he is promoted to 1st captain, yet julius is 1st captain too... !?

 

Anyone got any thoughts on this? Either Julius is promoted to, or there are seperate 1st captains...

[A D-B]

Maybe, but for the EC it's Grand Companies, not normal Companies.

That does not mean that those Grand Companiye are not also sub divided into Companies. The Index Astartes Emperor's Children speaks of 30 "Companies", and at another point even specifically refers to "Battle Companies".

 

No, in Index Astartes a Lord Commander leads a Company. In Fulgrim, Captains lead companies. Only two Lord Commanders are seen.

 

Actually on the whole Grand Company thing I got confused. (I'm used to the whole Grand Company thing over at EC.net)

 

Going over the Index Astartes once again and Fulgrim the Index Astartes seems to use Lord Commanders interchangeably as the Captain rank (Although Captains are mentioned briefly). Wheras in Fulgrim we have standard Captains and the only Lord Commanders seem to function as Fulgrim's lieutenants.

 

I thought it was widely known by now that the Index Astartes articles (and most Codices) assume a strength of 10,000 per average Legion while the Horus Heresy novels generally assume a strength of 100,000. Obviously in comparison with the Black Library novels the number given in the EC Index Astartes article would seem ridiculously small for a Legion. But then the 12,000 Iron Warriors given in their Index Astartes would not be a lot better when measured against a 100,000 strong Legion of the novels.

 

Well Galaxy in Flames already states that there are ''more than ten thousand'' Emperor's Children. If the Emperor's Children have 30 Companies in the novels then they are probably going to be much larger than battle companies to get those kind of numbers.

 

And actually after reading Raven's Flight and First Heretic the average strength of the Legions is not 100,000. (It's definitely more than 10,000 though) The Word Bearers consist of 100,000 Astartes and are referred to as the second largest among the Legions, while the Raven Guard are 80,000. Going by the size of Loken's company and if we take that as average the Luna Wolves would number in the tens of thousands.

 

But really, that's not my question. I'm more interested about the Night Lords really. Did they use Chapters? How where Raptors organised and suchlike?

 

If A-D-B could clarify then that would be great.

 

Regarding legion sizes, I asked this at the last Horus Heresy meeting. The conversation went pretty much word for word like this:

 

ME: Sorry to bring this up again... About the conflicting Legion sizes... Some sources say about 10,000, others say about 100,000. It comes down to older Studio material as well as the previous HH novels, or Raven's Flight, the current Chaos Codex, and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. So we have two figures.

 

ALAN MERRETT: *Insert five minutes of explaining the insane scope of the Great Crusade, mentioning how the larger Legion sizes in HH:CV were the accurate ones*.

 

ME: *Taking many notes*. Got it. Can I have that biscuit?

 

JIM: No.

 

ME: Dude.

 

DAN: Just give him the biscuit. It'll shut him up.

 

 

And to answer your Night Lords stuff, Gree:

 

Did they use Chapters? I suspect all the Legions did, though most didn't make a big deal out of it. To the Word Bearers, it clearly mattered a lot. To others, it was more likely just a unit of force measurement / numerical organisation, and they focused more on the traditions and customs of their company. But at this stage, I'm not sure. I'll bring it up at the next meeting.

 

How were Raptors organised? Seeing as they're destined to become a loosely-organised cult(s) that have their own pack-like allegiance above most other stuff, I don't really see Raptors in the Night Lords as being "The First Company", or whatever. They're not that organised, in my mind. More likely they were the elite (or, in truth, just thought of themselves as the elite) of each company - those rare warriors with access to jet/jump packs - and they shared a warrior credo with each other above most other allegiances. In The First Heretic, the Night Lords First Company is noted as using Terminator armour at the Dropsite Massacre. But then, they would. It was a featureless battlefield with two armies the size of oceans grinding against one another. Any Raptors flying around would be gunned down like a game of Duck Hunt.

 

I'm not trying to be awkward or useless with these answers (though you have a fair case for saying I'm being both), but it's sort of something that I've not really decided yet where the Night Lords are concerned. My instinct is to give them a traditional organisation and make them more interesting and characterful on the pack/squad/company level, with their own rites, customs, traditions and so on... Rather than just mandate a more Codex-like system of: "This company were X, this company were Y, and all Night Lords were Z." I'm all for individual captains (and gamers) exercising choice over their warriors, within a decent framework. That seems more like how the Night Lords (and a few of the other Legions) would operate to me.

[Captain Idaho]

ALAN MERRETT: *Insert five minutes of explaining the insane scope of the Great Crusade, mentioning how the larger Legion sizes in HH:CV were the accurate ones*.

 

Understandable. Hell a Chapter of 1,000 feels hard to believe they could achieve some of the things we read about sometimes!

 

But I guess the question keeps coming up due to the mystery surrounding the reason of the discrepency; basically is the sized quoted in the Studio material inaccurate because that is the way history goes or is the studio planning on replacing the material on this as we move towards 6th edition?

[Legatus]

ALAN MERRETT: *Insert five minutes of explaining the insane scope of the Great Crusade, mentioning how the larger Legion sizes in HH:CV were the accurate ones*.

I dunno. A single Chapter or company is often described to be able to accomplish a lot in the background. The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had a story about three companies of White Panthers taking out a well defended world in a few weeks. In the Second War for Armageddon only three Chapters were involved against Ghazghkulls first Waaagh. The Third War cranked the numbers up significantly (perhaps to better suit the world wide campaign where every player could participate).

If a single Chapter is as powerful as the background suggests, ten Chapters would have been pretty much unstoppable.

 

The fact that recent Codices refer to the smaller numbers does not really help GW to establish the larger numbers as the correct ones.

 

"Whereas before the Heresy, a Space Marine Legion might number ten thousand or more warriors, under the new order each Chapter's size was limited to about a thousand."

5th Edition Codex Space Wolves, p. 9.

[Doghouse]

My instinct is to give them a traditional organisation and make them more interesting and characterful on the pack/squad/company level, with their own rites, customs, traditions and so on... Rather than just mandate a more Codex-like system of: "This company were X, this company were Y, and all Night Lords were Z." I'm all for individual captains (and gamers) exercising choice over their warriors, within a decent framework. That seems more like how the Night Lords (and a few of the other Legions) would operate to me.

 

That's how I've always pictured the organisation of the legions. I can see them having maybe a standard template for the original regiments then as they are reorganised into legions cultural influences coming into play as each finds it's primarch then these diversions coming into play as the crusade expands. It wouldn't be a hard stretch of the imagination to see other cultures or opponents that they have conquered coming into play either. So for example Bad Guys A favour hit and run tactics, Legion A fights them and is influenced by adapting to their style of warfare or an ally uses a certain type of tactics that work really well so Legion A adopts them as their own.

So uniform to begin with but as they all go their separate ways and gain experience with different enemies they become more individual and then there are influences of the Primarchs coming into play.

[Hrvat]

ME: Sorry to bring this up again... About the conflicting Legion sizes... Some sources say about 10,000, others say about 100,000. It comes down to older Studio material as well as the previous HH novels, or Raven's Flight, the current Chaos Codex, and Horus Heresy: Collected Visions. So we have two figures.

 

ALAN MERRETT: *Insert five minutes of explaining the insane scope of the Great Crusade, mentioning how the larger Legion sizes in HH:CV were the accurate ones*.

 

 

Ok so that would settle it(and saves me a lot of time as I was in the process of hunting down all the quotes refering to legion sizes), but it sure does leave a confused audience.

 

 

Cheers

 

Hrvat

[Gree]

Okay, thanks A-D-B. If I understand this correctly, Pre-Heresy Chapters did not always conist of a 1000 men right?

 

ALAN MERRETT: *Insert five minutes of explaining the insane scope of the Great Crusade, mentioning how the larger Legion sizes in HH:CV were the accurate ones*.

I dunno. A single Chapter or company is often described to be able to accomplish a lot in the background. The 3rd Edition Codex Space Marines had a story about three companies of White Panthers taking out a well defended world in a few weeks. In the Second War for Armageddon only three Chapters were involved against Ghazghkulls first Waaagh. The Third War cranked the numbers up significantly (perhaps to better suit the world wide campaign where every player could participate).

If a single Chapter is as powerful as the background suggests, ten Chapters would have been pretty much unstoppable. .

]

 

Actually it depends on who is writing the Marines.

 

In Imeprial Armor at Taros An entire Battle Company is ambushed and forced to retreat by a single Tau Cadre with air support. (Tau cadre's are about 80-100 Fire Warriors with around a dozen battlesuits typically) In IA:8 a Company-szed Raven Guard force withe Guard support it chased off by mere ten thousand orks if I remmeber correctly. In Fall of Malovion three Companies of Marines land and face some Tyranid ground swarms of a splinter fleet. They are annhilated in twenty minutes. The Blood Angels lost over nine hundred Marines on a Space Hulk once. Tyranid splinter fleets have annhilated 4-5 chapters if my memory serves me correctly.

 

Just as we have sources with Marines taking out planets by themselves we also have accounts of Marines doing much less than that.

[Dark Mechanicum]

When it comes to the Taros Campaign. It was a battle company that was prepared for A and instead got B. Its even mentioned that they didn't have the heavy weapons needed to fight all the tanks that were brought.

 

Lamenters are cursed and when your already decimated by one war (Badab) and then you fly right into a Tyranid Splinter Fleet, yea, you are going to be eaten.

 

Raven Guard with Guard support had explicit targets to weaken the waagh, and they only got part of those and lost alot due to well, their Orks its what they do.

 

Space Hulks are nasty and Genestealers punch through Power/Terminator/Any kind of armor with ease.

 

Almost 3 whole chapters involved with the first Ghazghkull(sp) invasion. Squads and companies of 10 for the 2nd. That is the difference in the numbers.

 

Back on Target: It will be interesting to read more on Heresy Era levels just to see the fun battles that come out of it.

[Kizzdougs]

I think that durring the Great Crusade the Astartes were used in a slightly different role to the one that is commonly described for the 41 millenium.

From what i have read in the HH series it seems that the space marines were used in far higher concentrations than they are now. The legions were able to saturate warzones with thousands of warriors and grind any opposition into the dust. The Primarchs would march to war a the head of an army comparable to a modern chapter and then leave the Imperial Army to mop up afterwards. This is considerably different from the current scenario were the Astartes are a rapid relief force that is deployed in support of the Imperial Guard. The space marines don't conquer systems and sectors anymore. They defend Imperial worlds or aid the Guard in the case of major crusades.

[Cowl]

I think that durring the Great Crusade the Astartes were used in a slightly different role to the one that is commonly described for the 41 millenium.

From what i have read in the HH series it seems that the space marines were used in far higher concentrations than they are now. The legions were able to saturate warzones with thousands of warriors and grind any opposition into the dust. The Primarchs would march to war a the head of an army comparable to a modern chapter and then leave the Imperial Army to mop up afterwards. This is considerably different from the current scenario were the Astartes are a rapid relief force that is deployed in support of the Imperial Guard. The space marines don't conquer systems and sectors anymore. They defend Imperial worlds or aid the Guard in the case of major crusades.

 

Great point. When the technology of the Imperium was pumping and recruiting worlds were still intact (Caliban, Nostramo etc) tt was easy for the Imperium to produce massive forces of Astartes. In the 41st Millenium as technology continues to crumble, more gene-seeds degrade and worlds are lost the Imperium has use the Astartes as a finite resource.

[Captain Idaho]

No the reason there are so many Astartes produced was not want for man power, it was because they had a direct source of Geneseed (Primarchs) and used accelerated implementation techniques which produced a Space Marine in a year.

[calgar101]

Exactly, with the Primarchs around they had better quality gene seed to use and thus were free any defects and much more stable. Also the screening process for recruits was not as strict as It is now and the time to 'create' an Astartes was shorter as well.