Necrons - Kill by Sweeping Advance?

[igotsmeakabob!!]

Do necrons get wiped out by Sweeping Advance, even if there's a Resurrection Orb?

[Dan VK]

The destroyed unit is removed immediately. Unless otherwise specified, no save or other special rule can rescue the unit at this stage; for them the battle is over. BRB pg40

 

Normally any unit 'caught' while falling back is destroyed.

 

Any Necron model that is reduced to 0 Wounds, or would otherwise be removed as a casualty, remains on the tabletop and is laid on its side to show that it's damaged. Codex: Necrons pg13

 

This looks like "otherwise specified" to me.

 

Assuming I am correct, Necron models destroyed by a Sweeping Advance are subject to the We'll Be Back! special rule. A Resurrection Orb is not necessary for this.

[greatcrusade08]

they arent removed as a casualty though, nor are they reduced in wounds to 0.. they are simply removed from the board..

[thade]

Yea, this isn't new. Crons being wiped out by Sweeping Advance is one of the things that makes all the Cron players I know angry. :wallbash: Just spend a day on a Necron forum, you'll see somebody blow up over this one.

 

GreatCrusade's interpretation is correct. They are not removed as a Casualty nor reduced to zero wounds by Sweep; they are simply removed from the board. RAW, they are gone. This is why Necrons do NOT like CC.

[Frosty the Pyro]

Yea, this isn't new. Crons being wiped out by Sweeping Advance is one of the things that makes all the Cron players I know angry. :wallbash: Just spend a day on a Necron forum, you'll see somebody blow up over this one.

 

GreatCrusade's interpretation is correct. They are not removed as a Casualty nor reduced to zero wounds by Sweep; they are simply removed from the board. RAW, they are gone. This is why Necrons do NOT like CC.

 

Initive 2 doenst help either.

 

The real question is what happens with necrons killed in the CC before the sweaping advance. I tend to rule in favor of the necrons, leting the non-swept models roll WBB and join different units. Necrons are already in a tough enouph spot in 5E anyway, no reason to salt the wounds.

[Dan VK]

they arent removed as a casualty though, nor are they reduced in wounds to 0.. they are simply removed from the board..

 

That is what I thought at first, but I could not find anything saying that "removed from the board" differs from "removed as a casualty." Would someone be kind enough to quote where "removed as a casualty" is defined as different? I frequently miss things in this poorly organized book. :wallbash:

[greatcrusade08]

The real question is what happens with necrons killed in the CC before the sweaping advance. I tend to rule in favor of the necrons, leting the non-swept models roll WBB and join different units. Necrons are already in a tough enouph spot in 5E anyway, no reason to salt the wounds.

 

actually no we covered this a while back, they stay as part of the unit UNTIL they successfully make a WBB roll and can joiun the closest available necron unit (of the same type).. becuase they are still part of the unit they are removed aswell

 

That is what I thought at first, but I could not find anything saying that "removed from the board" differs from "removed as a casualty." Would someone be kind enough to quote where "removed as a casualty" is defined as different? I frequently miss things in this poorly organized book. :wacko:

 

if you look at the process of causing wound sin the rulebook they define removing casualties at the end, after causing wounds, failing armour saves and whatnot

[JamesI]

The real question is what happens with necrons killed in the CC before the sweaping advance. I tend to rule in favor of the necrons, leting the non-swept models roll WBB and join different units. Necrons are already in a tough enouph spot in 5E anyway, no reason to salt the wounds.

 

actually no we covered this a while back, they stay as part of the unit UNTIL they successfully make a WBB roll and can joiun the closest available necron unit (of the same type).. becuase they are still part of the unit they are removed aswell

really? Every Necron player I've ever played has played it differently.

[greatcrusade08]

we can thrash it out with RAW if you want to... theres always the chance im wrong.

[JamesI]

I don't have access to the Necron dex, but I'll try to check it out tonight at my LGS.

[greatcrusade08]

heres the previous link

WBB vs sweeping advances

 

heres a quote from seattleDV8

Incorrect, Sweeping Advance effects Units not models.

BRB pg. 40 "The falling back unit is destroyed" and again " The destroyed unit is removed immeadiately"

The entire unit is removed, not just the standing ones.

The downed Necrons are still part of their parent unit as shown in the Necron FAQ.

"Necrons who fail their WBB roll are removed

unless you intend to use a Monolith portal to

teleport the unit during the current move."

If they are not part of the unit then they would be unable to be teleported through the Monolith.

Also downed models are moved with the parent unit when Falling Back with a Res Orb. as they are still part of the unit.

Sweeping Advance is one of the few rules that over ride Codex rules.

A special rule must have specific wording (like ATSKNF does) to over-ride Sweeping Advance , WWB does not have that wording.

Side note: the rule is unchanged from 4th Ed except for the example ' ...other special rule , like WWB, can rescue...'

[thade]

Wait, GC8...I do remember that thread, but not the conclusion you seem to be alluding to. Are you saying that Necrons who are wounded down pre-Sweep are destroyed (ie don't get a WBB roll) if the unit falls to the Sweep?

[greatcrusade08]

Wait, GC08...I do remember that thread, but not the conclusion you seem to be alluding to. Are you saying that Necrons who are wounded down pre-Sweep are destroyed (ie don't get a WBB roll) if the unit falls to the Sweep?

 

yes becuase the necron codex/rules dont say that wounded crons are seperate of the unit, infact the provisions they make for allowing the break of coherancy is testament to the fact they are considered part of the unit still.

as they are part of the unit, when the unit is removed they are too

[thade]

I am wracking my brain (and my cron-playing friend) now, and it's coming back to me.

 

Once a Necron model is wounded down, it's no longer part of the unit it once was. Reason being is the writing of WBB, which specifically says the model stands back up (on a successful WBB roll) and joins the nearest like-Necron unit, NOT it's original unit. Last paragraph of the WBB rule, Necron codex. <3

 

Whew. Here I was thinking crons were even MORE screwed. :) Wounded down models do in fact get a WBB roll; the Swept ones do not.

 

Not sure what part of "Sweeping Advance overrules codex rules" is covered in the BRB; seems to me it's as much a normal BRB rule as any other, just as easy to supercede as the rest by codex rules.

[greatcrusade08]

I am wracking my brain (and my cron-playing friend) now, and it's coming back to me.

 

Once a Necron model is wounded down, it's no longer part of the unit it once was. Reason being is the writing of WBB, which specifically says the model stands back up (on a successful WBB roll) and joins the nearest like-Necron unit, NOT it's original unit. Last paragraph of the WBB rule, Necron codex. <3

 

Whew. Here I was thinking crons were even MORE screwed. :) Wounded down models do in fact get a WBB roll; the Swept ones do not.

 

Not sure what part of "Sweeping Advance overrules codex rules" is covered in the BRB; seems to me it's as much a normal BRB rule as any other, just as easy to supercede as the rest by codex rules.

 

sorry mate thats not right.. the rules do not say they arent part of the same unit.. infact as mentioned above the specifics of allowing breaking of coherancy storngly works against your argument.

its all in the thread, read the last couple of pages

[Gaz1858]

Having never actually used Necrons before I always assumed they wouldnt be removed if caught by a sweeping advance.

 

After playing a load of Necron players though they always remove the unit( already dead models and those still alive caught by the SA) if caught by a sweeping advance. THats maybe 4 or 5 different players ive had do it.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Has anyone checked the Necron FAQ? Its pretty much universally accepted now they are destroyed.

 

0b :)

[greatcrusade08]

this was my post where i cited the actual rule..

Linkage

 

the next post was Thade admitting he agreed with my assertion :)

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Necrons were one of the most broken armies out there until Alessio wrote the 5th edition FAQ for their army. :tu:

 

G

[Dan VK]

A model that suffers an unsaved wound is removed from play as a casualty. This does not mean suffering an unsaved wound is the only way to be removed from play as a casualty. Conversely, this does not mean every model that is removed from play is removed as a casualty. The REMOVE CASUALTIES section of the BRB does not define what a casualty is, even if it strongly implies what it is. I would define ‘casualty’ as a model that is removed from play because it has suffered a number of unsaved wounds equal to or greater than its Wounds characteristic, but I have no solid support for that.

 

The argument boils down to the fact the BRB states that models are “removed immediately” and that the Codex states that models “remain on the tabletop.” The Codex supersedes Main Rulebook, and besides that the BRB states “unless otherwise specified.”

 

My gaming group, myself included, have come to the conclusion that RAI, a unit caught by a Sweeping Advance is dismembered with bayonets and stomped into the dirt so hard they bond with it on a molecular level, and that is how we play. I do not believe the RAW to be so clear, however. I firmly believe this requires a FAQ answer.

 

 

[EDIT: Wow, I use the phrase "the fact" way too much. Edited to remove boring and repetitive language.]

[greatcrusade08]

A model that suffers an unsaved wound is removed from play as a casualty. This does not mean suffering an unsaved wound is the only way to be removed from play as a casualty. Conversely, this does not mean every model that is removed from play is removed as a casualty. The REMOVE CASUALTIES section of the BRB does not define what a casualty is, even if it strongly implies what it is. I would define ‘casualty’ as a model that is removed from play because it has suffered a number of unsaved wounds equal to or greater than its Wounds characteristic, but I have no solid support for that.

 

The argument boils down to the fact the BRB states that models are “removed immediately” and that the Codex states that models “remain on the tabletop.” The Codex supersedes Main Rulebook, and besides that the BRB states “unless otherwise specified.

 

personally i think your grasping at straws..

and no in this case the BRB and codex are talking about different things.. the codex does state remain on the table, but it refers to leaving casualties on the table.. casualties from shooting and assault etc.. the BRB states take the model off immediately for sweeping advance... the two rules are both satisfied..

 

a unit of necrons is shot at killing two who are laid on the table, the remainder are charged and run down by SA.. all models are removed..

 

its two seperate actions, there is no superceeding anything

[SeattleDV8]

Okay, WWB is a rule that effects models.

Sweeping Advance is a rule that effects Units

Its a subtle difference, we are not talking about wounds or casualties.

The Sweeping Advance removes the Unit.

Also the Codex in this case Has to mention Sweeping Advance or it does not trump/over-rule the BRB.

Look at ATSKNF for an example of what it takes to trump Sweeping Advance .

WWB does not have this and therefore does not work.

[Dan VK]

personally i think your grasping at straws..

 

And I think you are arguing with RAI and not RAW, but I would prefer we discuss the issues and not contributors.

 

casualties from shooting and assault etc..

 

I did not find this anywhere my copy of Codex: Necrons.

 

the BRB states take the model off immediately for sweeping advance...

 

Immediately is subjective to the situation and other applicable rules. Page 24 of the BRB states ... for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the able as a casualty. but one could not successfully argue that the use of the word ‘immediately’ denies the use of the We’ll Be Back! special rule. As evidenced by discussions regarding the rules for Pinning weapons, the word 'immediately' can reference varying levels of immediacy.

 

Also the Codex in this case Has to mention Sweeping Advance or it does not trump/over-rule the BRB.

Look at ATSKNF for an example of what it takes to trump Sweeping Advance .

WWB does not have this and therefore does not work.

 

We’ll Be Back! references models being removed, which occurs when a Sweeping Advance is made. I find this sufficient to qualify as “otherwise specified.” For example, the Feel No Pain special rule does not specifically mention the REMOVING CASUALTIES section. Instead it references the same set of circumstances and makes an adjustment to the rules as normal.

 

Okay, WWB is a rule that effects models.

Sweeping Advance is a rule that effects Units

Its a subtle difference, we are not talking about wounds or casualties.

The Sweeping Advance removes the Unit.

 

That is something I did not consider. My final conclusion was incorrect. Thank you. :P

[greatcrusade08]

personally i think your grasping at straws..

 

And I think you are arguing with RAI and not RAW, but I would prefer we discuss the issues and not contributors.

 

Ill think youll find mate.. i nwas giving you RAW.... your the one trying to argue RAI here not me.. nowhere does it say the downed necrons are seperate of the unit.. without it there is no RAW basis for youir argument..

 

casualties from shooting and assault etc..

 

I did not find this anywhere my copy of Codex: Necrons.

thats becuase its in the BRB.. under casualties.. how else does one cause casualties...

 

the BRB states take the model off immediately for sweeping advance...

 

Immediately is subjective to the situation and other applicable rules. Page 24 of the BRB states ... for each unsaved wound one model is immediately removed from the able as a casualty. but one could not successfully argue that the use of the word ‘immediately’ denies the use of the We’ll Be Back! special rule. As evidenced by discussions regarding the rules for Pinning weapons, the word 'immediately' can reference varying levels of immediacy.

 

WHAT????

what are you trying to argue here.. seems like your arguing for arguments sake...

listen carfeully., the WBB supercedes the rulebook for immediately taking off casualties.. (codex trumps rulebook and all that), but the WBB doesnt cover sweeping advance (only casualties) and therefore cannot trump the rulebook on that front, so SA does remove models

 

That is something I did not consider. My final conclusion was incorrect. Thank you. :P

 

i dont get it, why continue to argue with me, when youve accepted that i was right... that really bothers me.

[thade]

Damn, GC08. I hate to say it, but I agree with you.

 

As it doesn't explicitly state they leave the unit, they must still be a part of the unit. Derp. I'm embarrassed. I read the WBB rule a dozen times during this discussion and never thought to cite it directly in this post; nor did I get out of it what you did. Thisgamehassomanyruuullees. >_<

 

Well, my buddy will be upset; but he's still very new to the WH scene. Hopefully he adapts. =) He's pretty lethal with Necrons already.

 

Dammitall!!!!!! You win this round, GC08!

 

lol