DoA/DS Army - Tips & Tricks

[daboarder]

Better yet drop Dante, pop transport the. Assault with a VV squad that is also within range of the sanguinary priest, remember measurement is done after assault moves as per the faq

[syypher]

To assure an assault on the turn you drop down where do you find is the best place to put your Vanguard Vets when rolling for the scatter? How far from the enemy? Etc.

 

Any tips or advice on that? To assure assault first turn you drop.

 

Another one brought up in another thread here on B&C is how to deal with TWC+HQ with those baby wolves. There were some nice suggestions on there but none I feel comfortable enough with. Rate of fire is usually the way to deal with termy-esque units but seeing as how DoA/JP armies don't really have that...

[igotsmeakabob!!]

To assure an assault on the turn you drop down where do you find is the best place to put your Vanguard Vets when rolling for the scatter? How far from the enemy? Etc.

 

Any tips or advice on that? To assure assault first turn you drop.

Basically, you want to position your HI as if you're assuming you're going to hit. With 1d6" scatter, I like to stick my boys so that the outer ring is 4-5" from the charge target.

[shatter]

That's a really hard thing to quantify.

 

Speaking specifically for VV HI.

 

The shape of the enemy unit has a little to do with it. If it's a single model or the corner of a tank you're aiming at, you can risk going slightly closer. The center of an enemy concave, slightly further away as more scatter dice directions will bring you into mishap.

 

Sometimes placing them risky close is better to be able to multicharge with appropriate models when a multicharge could break the opponents back or save the rest of your army by pulling them out of position.

Sometimes it will give you the ability get more models into an assault position with an intention to eliminate the unit and then consolidate after in a direction that blocks LOS.

 

You have to take it all into account and balance the risk/benefit.

 

As a rough guide, 6.4" from target on the 1st model's center, 6.8" if it's 2 rings. (More for termies, but they aint part of this discussion). But, like any HI DS, this is already in the risk range... which is fairly similar to igotsmeakabob!!'s 4-5" from outer ring edge... which is a bit hard to measure when one is kinda limited to 1st model placement at the start.

 

2 ring patterns have a couple of advantages. They can rotate the outer ring slightly to increase/reduce the total footprint of the unit as well as simply placing models on the enemy side of the first ring or placing them at the far side... which is why I suggest a guide of 6.8" for 2 ring units instead of around 7.4.

[daboarder]

About 4-5 away, with a squad of six you can "lean" the sqaud away or towards the target in order to compensate for scatter in all but the most extreme cases.

[syypher]

Updated! Thanks again for all the tips guys!

 

These are awesome.

 

 

I recently ran a full DoA list and it was pretty funny. It's around a 77% chance with DoA that your squads come in on your turn 2 (your first turn to roll for reserves). Guess what? NONE of my guys came in! It was hilarious. When they finally did though it was mucho fun! :devil:

 

No AV threats anywhere so I Deepstriked my HG Meltax4 squad and popped a few Terminators and then a couple RAS deepstrikers killed a bunch of others with pistols!

 

---

 

 

New question. If a good enough answer is found then I will add this to the list. I'm sure a few others have this as well and there was even a separate topic started on this.

 

When do you deepstrike? I usually deepstrike everything. Including my RAS squads. From the other topic that was started regarding this question it seems that quite a few people, a majority even, do not deepstrike the RAS and instead they put them on board. Really? I know they are pie plate happy targets after they land but is that really what people do? If you keep them on the field, in my limited experience and opinion, they will just get torn up and shot to death before anything even gets to deep strike in.

 

Thoughts?

[Leksington]

When do you deepstrike? I usually deepstrike everything. Including my RAS squads. From the other topic that was started regarding this question it seems that quite a few people, a majority even, do not deepstrike the RAS and instead they put them on board. Really? I know they are pie plate happy targets after they land but is that really what people do? If you keep them on the field, in my limited experience and opinion, they will just get torn up and shot to death before anything even gets to deep strike in.

 

Thoughts?

I was wondering the same thing. Is it really a Decent of Angels list if only 5 angels are decending? :P

 

If you weren't deepstriking everything, then wouldn't you want squads of devastators in every DoA list to open things up, and whittle the enemy down as you fly across the field?

 

I thought the conventional wisdom was the the VV were so important because they were to tie up the biggest threats to the troops you just deep striked. If you are going to fly your army accross the field, why even bother DSing 1-2 units of VV (they are fairly expensive at 30 points a model with just chainsword and pistol)?

[WarpWalker]

Either way deep striking or flying across the board, The vanguard are great for tying up enemy heavy weapons.

 

Changing up tactics is a great way of throwing off people you play regularly. Some people deep strike all but one or two units. Bring them from reserves as normal to catch enemy units in their deployment zone off guard.

[shatter]

Deep Striking Pods and SRs have some (IC) target finding advantages I seldom see used.

 

An IC disembarking from a pod or a SR can be placed more then 2" from the rest of the cargo and be considered a separate unit in the shoot phase. Ie, 5 infantry and 5 combi/special pistol priests, should there be room to do this (I doubt there is), could target 6 different units.

 

3 infantry DC, a dread and 7 priests from a SR could be responsible for 10 different target solutions. Again, there isn't actually enough room, but the theory is sound.

[spec.ops]

Here’s something I don’t understand about DOA lists - Objectives.

 

How do DOA lists secure Objectives?

 

If the normal DOA list is RAS heavy with other sparse elements such as VV or Baal Preds who is in the rear holding home base?

 

Do DOA list rock that much that they drop in, pop B), roll some heads, pillage the enemy objectives all while catching the next wind current back to their rear objective before the game ends to watch some Monday Night Football?

[shatter]

I think it's more about how can the enemy score if the DoA attack contained/contest/killed their scoring units? Only need one troop squad to win, then... which aint too hard to work with jump infantry.

[WarpWalker]

spec.ops -

...to watch some Monday Night Football?

 

Bloodbowl actually. :P

[spec.ops]

sounds like a bunch of theory hog-wash to me, shater.

 

From my perspective I see DOA as interference. They don't win the game single handedly as much as I would like, but cause enough chaos for the enemy that they have to divert all resources on them. While, a select few supporting units remain in the back holding the rear objective for the glory hogers down range.

[shatter]

Sounds more like hybrid by list or deployment to me.

 

And theory is all we have on this thread, buddy.

[spec.ops]

Let’s go back to my question. How can DOA hold objectives, especially the rear objective.

 

Answer:

I think it's more about how can the enemy score if the DoA attack contained/contest/killed their scoring units? Only need one troop squad to win, then... which aint too hard to work with jump infantry.

 

So, while our boys are containing/ contesting/ killing the enemies scoring units our scouring units are scoring what objective...or do we wipe the field down to the last man and vehicle? So, why then worry about any objective, because this is a DOA not Death Co?

 

maybe I am coming off a little strong. I just find pure DOA to have trouble in this area, and with such a great thread going on about DOA tactics maybe a tactic or explanation for my question can addressed.

 

Sounds more like hybrid by list or deployment to me.

 

Question, what is a DOA list? Does having a squad in the rear or some vehicles negates the theme of DOA? So, all lists with SR are Mech lists?

 

theory + experience (batrep), buddy.

[Kurb]

Let’s go back to my question. How can DOA hold objectives, especially the rear objective.

 

Answer:

I think it's more about how can the enemy score if the DoA attack contained/contest/killed their scoring units? Only need one troop squad to win, then... which aint too hard to work with jump infantry.

 

So, while our boys are containing/ contesting/ killing the enemies scoring units our scouring units are scoring what objective...or do we wipe the field down to the last man and vehicle? So, why then worry about any objective, because this is a DOA not Death Co?

 

maybe I am coming off a little strong. I just find pure DOA to have trouble in this area, and with such a great thread going on about DOA tactics maybe a tactic or explanation for my question can addressed.

 

Sounds more like hybrid by list or deployment to me.

 

Question, what is a DOA list? Does having a squad in the rear or some vehicles negates the theme of DOA? So, all lists with SR are Mech lists?

 

theory + experience (batrep), buddy.

 

I think DOA objective holding and taking starts before the game.

Perhaps trying to keep the objectives central and/or as close to one another as possible.

I see what you are trying to say, and have experienced the same decision making questions.

[Jorre]

It's true assault squads realy are not suited to holding objectives, and if they are you are loosing a lot of attack potential. This can be countered by using combat squads half holding and half attacking, but both halves really loose all there bite when you do this. I usualy run a tactical squad to hold rear objectives but then it's not really a pure doa list anymore.

 

I would also like to know what pure doa players do

[JamesI]

I play close to pure jump pack (some devs and attack bikes for support) and I just put objectives as far forward as I can. Most games I try to hold the objectives in my opponent's deployment zone and either contest or kill off the squads holding the stuff in my zone.

 

Tonight I played nids and at the end of turn 5, my objective was uncontrolled and I held his objective.

[shatter]

I think it's more about how can the enemy score if the DoA attack contained/contest/killed their scoring units? Only need one troop squad to win, then... which aint too hard to work with jump infantry.

 

Looks like I have to expand or spell out what I said initially.

 

I think it's (commited DoA lists) more (higher probability than non commited DoA lists) about how can the enemy score (in their table half)... blahblahblah.

 

If you're not committed to DoA list-wise, the concentration of forces in their table half is reduced, thereby reducing the probability of success of the above enemy troop containment. I'm sorry you couldn't or chose not to extrapolate that from what I said, spec'. Yes it is just theory. Hog wash? No, well, not to me. To me it seems quite obvious. If you dilute the DoA ability with other units, you'll pay for it by not having concentrated forces and the DoA aspect becomes more counter-centric. You've noticed this, hence you asked the question. I answered the why. Not the what to do about it other than what the theory infers. I'm sorry you felt frustrated with that enough to become a little combative and mildly insulting. With that, I can't help you.

[Simpsonia]

I think you have to think of some of the psychological aspects from the opponent's perspective against a DoA list in an objective game. They can either castle and protect their own objective, but hurting any offensive they launch to seize yours. They can split their force to seize yours and protect theirs, but leaves them vulnerable since they have no idea where your forces are coming down at. Or they can leave a minimal rear guard and advance the majority of their forces across the board. But the biggest aspect is the fear that the have no idea where you're going to be coming down so they will most likely make mistakes.

 

I find that they usually do a 2/3-3/4 split either rear guard and advance, or castle on objective and advance a small force. I've found that 1 vanguard and one RAS can usually take on the smaller section, while the majority of my forces hit their larger forces. At the very least, the smaller section can contest, while the larger portion of my forces can clear their forces usually by the time turn 5-6 comes around. Typically I've never really had to worry about RAS holding an objective too long since it's usually near the end of the game when I've cleared everything around it.

[DV8]

Let’s go back to my question. How can DOA hold objectives, especially the rear objective.

 

You don't.

 

Question, what is a DOA list? Does having a squad in the rear or some vehicles negates the theme of DOA? So, all lists with SR are Mech lists?

 

theory + experience (batrep), buddy.

 

DoA stands for Descent of Angels. That is to say, the special rule that Blood Angels Jump Infantry get to take advantage of. So a DoA list is an army built PURELY of units that have the Descent of Angels rule.

 

Characters with Jump Packs (Dante, Sanguinor, Astorath, anything generic with a Jump Pack)

Priests with Jump Packs

Chaplains with Jump Packs

Sanguinary Guard

Death Company with Jump Packs

Assault Marines with Jump Packs

Vanguard Veterans with Jump Packs

 

You get the picture. Not to put too fine a point on it, a DoA list has NOTHING that is not equipped with a jump pack. Which means you have no vehicles, and nothing stationary holding down the fort in your deployment zone. The army is pure aggression, and diluting it with "mechanized" units or stationary fire support or with armored support reduces that aggression, as already mentioned before.

 

So to answer your question of how one takes objectives, especially one in your deployment/rear zone, with a DoA army? Well I've already answered in regards to rear objectives. I'll explain why.

 

A unit in a DoA army that is held back to "secure" an objective is a unit that isn't being played aggressively to harass/waylay/disrupt/kill the enemy. It's a jump infantry unit that you're paying a premium in points for to simply sit back and do nothing. Blood Angels DoA units have no long range (certainly almost nothing beyond 12"...heck half of my army has nothing more than a 6" range! Oh Nipple Wing), and lack numbers to weather and survive torrents of incoming fire. And again, splitting your army up to this degree dilutes the aggression of the army.

 

So what do you do? You either put your own objective as far forward as possible, or you ignore it, and take the enemy's objective. It's not about how many objectives you control at the end of the game. It's all about controlling just one more than your opponent. By blitzing forward and taking your opponent's objective, while at the same time denying him the opportunity and the ability to take yours (by any number of ways, all situational and impossible to postulate at this point), means that at the end of the game, you win because you control one objective (the one in your enemy's end zone) to your opponent's zero (because they were unable to score or contest theirs or yours).

 

If, in some situations you are unable to "not" focus on objectives (meaning a scenario where you pretty much HAVE to take and hold an objective), then what you can do is to bunch all the objectives close together. So doing means you don't need to spread your forces thin to contest multiple objectives to guarantee you have that "one-up" on your opponent. By grouping them all together you can keep your army close and hammer the opponent with everything, without fear of having to waste precious turns trying to contest distant objectives.

 

Remember: Annihilation is ALWAYS an objective.

 

EDIT - mispelt Sanguinor's name! :S

 

DV8

[Leksington]

Question, what is a DOA list? Does having a squad in the rear or some vehicles negates the theme of DOA? So, all lists with SR are Mech lists?

 

theory + experience (batrep), buddy.

There are some decent Hybrid lists that are predominantly DoA but have devastator squads in the rear. You could substitute vehicles I suppose.

 

The problem with these lists is twofold.

-Your Drop Assault has lost some of its teeth. Subsequently, a larger percentage of drop assault will die on the turn they drop, and you have less troops making attacks in combat.

-The troops/vehicles in the rear are unlikely to survive the first round, since your opponent has an entire army gunning for just a handful of units. If you make your rearguard big enough to survive that round (complete with SPs back there) you have even further diminished the effectiveness of your drop assault. You can't have them hiding or reserved because you need them to be 'can opening' and and dropping template attacks before your drop assault lands.

 

These lists can be successful, but they are hybrid lists rather than DoA lists.

[JamesI]

DV8 explains it very well.

 

I always put objectives as far forward as possible (and I don't play pure DoA, but all my scoring units are jump infantry). I rarely control my own objective, but often win by controlling my opponents and making sure mine is contested or completely left alone.

[syypher]

@Dv8: Overdoing yourself man! Excellent information! That is definitely going up on the OP. Wow, couldn't have said it any better myself! Woo!

 

For purposes of this thread and what it was designed for and the specific DoA lists it was made to help (pure DoA) I will include a description on the army in the OP. Thanks DV8 again!

[Morticon]

DV8 hits the nail on the head. Its one of the reasons tacticals still have uses - failing that, scouts.