Might of the Ancients & Monolith

[AyanamiKun]

Do the 2D6 for Armor Penetration work against the Living Metal special rule of Necron Monoliths? :D Hope this question is simple ... I could not find something like this with the search functions (but me and search do not get along :)

 

Thanks in advance!

[dswanick]

The Str 6 portion works just fine, but you will only be rolling 1d6 for Armor Penetration per the Living Metal rule. So, no, you won't be able to penetrate its AV14.

[Orphus]

The Str 6 portion works just fine, but you will only be rolling 1d6 for Armor Penetration per the Living Metal rule. So, no, you won't be able to penetrate its AV14.

Anything under St8 forget about when fighting a Monolith. All weapon destroyed results do is limit the amount of shots that the Gauss flux arc can take. Need Lascannons and other St9 weaponry to deal with it.

[Darkmagi]

Might of the Anchients

The power is used at the start of the Librarian's Assault phase. If successful, the Librarian has Strength 6, and Rolls 2d6 for Armor Penetration for the remainder of the Assault phase.

 

Pg 57 Codex Space Marines

 

The Str 6 portion works just fine, but you will only be rolling 1d6 for Armor Penetration per the Living Metal rule. So, no, you won't be able to penetrate its AV14.

 

Actually as Might of the Ancients does not grant "Bonus Dice" it will work vs the Monolith, Living Metal only protects against "Bonus Dice" such as those granted by a Melta Gun or a Multi-Melta. A Chain Fist will work as well as it also rolls 2d6 for armor penetration.

[Grey Mage]

No, the second die is a bonus die.

[Orphus]

No, the second die is a bonus die.

Also it states in Codex:Necron that any weapon shooting the Monolith does so with no additional D6 other than the first one given due to the living metal rule.

And melee weapons and attacks are subject to this rule as well I'm sure, so no such luck for a Librarian.

[mega_marines]

Honestly, from how I'm reading it, the rule replaces his regular D6 penetration with a standard 2D6 Penetration. Nowhere is it mentioned that it is a bonus die, but is 2D6 flat.

[Algesan]

"Weapons that get additional Armor Penetration dice (such as <some examples>...) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

 

Ordnance weapons get to roll 2d6, but only to keep the higher roll.

 

So, yep, it is giving the Librarian's assault weapon an additional AP die and he loses it against a Monolith.

[mega_marines]

"Weapons that get additional Armor Penetration dice (such as <some examples>...) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith."

 

Ordnance weapons get to roll 2d6, but only to keep the higher roll.

 

So, yep, it is giving the Librarian's assault weapon an additional AP die and he loses it against a Monolith.

 

I do not believe the Librarian himself is an Assault weapon, he is a base unit with 2D6 Armor penetration agains ta vehicle with no modifiers. His standard roll is 2D6 armor penetration. Not a unit with an additional penetration die.

[greatcrusade08]

its the age old argument isnt it?

becuase the rule says bonus dice, any rule that uses a base value of 2D6 can be argued for.. meltabombs, MoA and wahtnot..

tbh we have to use a little common sense and say that if a meltagun doesnt get its extra D6 then nothing is meant to get the extra D6.

 

in my mind MoA wont work nor wil meltabombs

[Grey Mage]

*sighs*.

 

The normal is 2d6. If you get to roll more dice with that its a bonus. Or to put it another way its one of the weapons advantages.

 

Bonus: Noun. Something extra that is good; An extra sum given as a premium, e.g. to an employee; To pay a bonus, premium

 

Getting 2d6 armor penetration is certainly 'something extra' that is 'good' for you.

 

Im sorry, but if all you can do is argue semantics your case isnt strong enough to keep people from calling shenanigans.

[Hellios]

Yer a normal armour pen roll is S+d6 so when you get to roll S+2d6 you are getting an additional or bonus dice over a normal pen role (S+1d6)

 

You also don't get extra rending dice or the benefit of things that give you +1 on your pen roles. Basically if it helps you pen a tank you don't get (lance included but being a marine forum not such an issue... oh wait BAs have it now?).

 

What can you use? You may use 2d6 and choose one rules as you are only picking one dice and applying that as given by weapons such as ordnance weapons. You may double your strength from a power fist and things that work like power fists (for other strength modifying things work it out for yourself).

You can also use things that give you a bonus to the damage roll once you've made a successful role to pen or glance.

 

I may have missed stuff out but that is basically it...

 

You will hear people say that meltabombs works but I do not agree ^_^ I guess that depends on how you read the rules.

[Grey Mage]

actually static numbers do work- tank hunters for example.

[Cedric]

You also don't get extra rending dice or the benefit of things that give you +1 on your pen roles. Basically if it helps you pen a tank you don't get (lance included but being a marine forum not such an issue... oh wait BAs have it now?).

 

You're wrong.

The living metal rule only mentions bonus dice (which would affect meltas, monstrous creatures, chainfists rending and the odd psychic power).

There isn't a word in the rule about fixed bonuses such as the +1 to penetrate from tank hunters.

You're right about lances, however.

 

Edit.

Bah, beaten to the punch. ^_^

Happy new year!

[Hellios]

actually static numbers do work- tank hunters for example.

 

Actually it says any weapon will use its unaugmented strength and 1d6 when attacking a monolith... Now we could argue that literal meaning of augmented wouldn't apply in the case of tank hunters as it is giving you +1 on your pen roll and not +1 strength however it says you may use unaugmented strength and 1d6 and I could argue that tank hunters is neither unaugmented strength or 1d6 and so in practise isn't used. I would also site the 4th ed necron FAQ which states specifically that tank hunters will not give you a bonus and as tank hunters and living metal do not interact differently because of the transition of 4th to 5th I see no reason to invalidate the ruling of that FAQ. The new FAQ being less helpful only goes into powerfists... which shouldn't be an issue to anyone who has read the rules for powerfists and living metal. Yay for GWs great FAQs...

 

So actually I'm not wrong and the only place I am unsure about is melta-bombs.

[Cedric]

@ Helios

 

I suggest you actually read the "Living Metal" rule in the Necron codex.

There's nothing about unaugmented strenght there, just a list of bonuses that doesn't work when penetrating. (of which TH isn'n included.

I can't speak of the previous FAQ as it has been made obsolete and replaced with a new one.

However; an old FAQ is no more valid than an old codex, when a new one is released to replace it.

[Orphus]

Monolith Living Metal rule:

attacks that lessen the AV of a target have no effect

Weapons that get additional AP dice, ( chainfists ,monstrous creatures and meltaweapons* are given examples)don't.

the exeption are ordinance, still getting their 2d6.

Any weapon attacking monolith does so at unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what.

 

*on the melta bomb issue aren't they counted as melta weapons?

 

Hopefully this will be wrapped up soon or someone might start handing out brooms calling for shenanigans.

[Cedric]

Are there different, revised versions of the Necron 3rd ed codex?

That would explain a lot, as my copy is distinctively lacking in that crucial formulation of unaugmented strength.

 

Here's a pic of the relevant rule, taken from the codex. (in no way meant to violate GM's intellectual property but to claryfy the incongruence above. All rights belonging to GW, and so on and forth).

 

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z178/the_lord34/Nybitmappsbild.jpg

[dswanick]

@Orpheus - can you site where your quote comes from. I've checked my Necron Codex (dated 2002) and do not find the Living Metal as you quote it.

Living Metal: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only se!f-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks.

Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons

that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as Chainfists, monstrous creatures, or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance

weapons still roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score.

I have also checked the FAQ, and find nothing there either.

On your other question, melta bombs are do not have the Melta rule.

[Hellios]

@ Helios

 

I suggest you actually read the "Living Metal" rule in the Necron codex.

There's nothing about unaugmented strenght there, just a list of bonuses that doesn't work when penetrating. (of which TH isn'n included.

I can't speak of the previous FAQ as it has been made obsolete and replaced with a new one.

However; an old FAQ is no more valid than an old codex, when a new one is released to replace it.

I have read the living metal rules and it is a good tip for anyone who plans to play with or against necrons.... Another good tip is to have the updated version of the Necron codex. I would also point you to the 4th edition necron FAQ which was released with the new printing on the necron codex and has the modifications. The 5th edition FAQ is not so useful... maybe they assumed everyone would have the new version of the codex by now I don't know or that they would have the 4th ed FAQ but you can find the 4th ed FAQ if you want online... or try looking for a new codex at your local store and see if you can spot the difference.

 

@Orpheus - can you site where your quote comes from. I've checked my Necron Codex (dated 2002) and do not find the Living Metal as you quote it.

Living Metal: The Monolith is made of living Necron metal which is not only se!f-repairing but is capable of adapting its structure to resist incoming attacks.

Attacks which count the target's Armour Value as being less than it really is (such as bright lances and blasters) do not do so against the Monolith. Similarly, weapons

that get additional Armour Penetration dice (such as Chainfists, monstrous creatures, or melta weapons) do not get the extra dice against the Monolith. Ordnance

weapons still roll 2d6 for Armour Penetration and select the highest score.

I have also checked the FAQ, and find nothing there either.

On your other question, melta bombs are do not have the Melta rule.

 

The rule as he quoted can be found in newer versions of the necron codex and in the 4th edition faq and errata. The 5th edition faq helpfully manages to miss a few of the rule updates between the different versions of the necron codex...

[Cedric]

Gah!

They really should print version numbers on their coices in that case.

Well, I guess Monoliths just got a bit tougher.

[dswanick]

@Hellios - OK, thanks for the quick response. I'll have to try and hunt down the version so I can check it out.

 

Back to the question at hand :

TANK HUNTERS

Tank hunters are especially skilled at finding and exploiting weaknesses in the armour of enemy vehicles. They add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (both at range and in close combat).

In addition, they automatically pass Morale checks caused by tank shock.

So the Living Metal won't negate the +1 because the hit is using the unaugmented strength, and the +1 is not an additional die. The +1 is a modifier to the die roll.

[Hellios]

@Hellios - OK, thanks for the quick response. I'll have to try and hunt down the version so I can check it out.

 

Back to the question at hand :

TANK HUNTERS

Tank hunters are especially skilled at finding and exploiting weaknesses in the armour of enemy vehicles. They add +1 to their armour penetration rolls whenever they hit a vehicle (both at range and in close combat).

In addition, they automatically pass Morale checks caused by tank shock.

So the Living Metal won't negate the +1 because the hit is using the unaugmented strength, and the +1 is not an additional die. The +1 is a modifier to the die roll.

 

I know that and I did mention that... and the FAQ specifically states that tank hunters is not applicable....

 

+ how I read the rule is that when trying to get a pen you may use 1d6 and the unaugmented strength of the weapon and nothing else when deciding if you have manged to glance/pen... since +1 to your pen roll is neither unaugmented strength or 1d6 it is not applicable.

 

Basically the only time this is an issue is when something tells you you must do XX when trying to pen then you will have that weapon/attacks rules saying you must do X while living metal says you can never do X and only use the weapons strength + 1d6... in that case which rule would take preference...

[Algesan]

I've also evidently got the newer version of the Necron codex. The last sentence says: "In practice, any weapon attacking the Monolith will roll for armour penetration using its unaugmented strength and a single d6 no matter what."

 

Note that the current Necron FAQ does allow for the PF and CF to double the user's base STR, so by extension that should cover any weapon that enhances a user's STR stat.

 

I really don't care what weapon the Librarian is using, be it a PF, CCW, his little pinkie or harsh language, he normally gets STR (double STR if using PF) + d6 Penetration roll. With his psychic power, he gets a bonus die roll so he gets STR + 2d6. It isn't something "innate" it is something added onto the normal Librarian, like adding a chainsaw blade to a power fist gives a +2d6, instead of +1d6. If anything a MC has a whole lot better claim to keeping its extra d6 than some Librarian using a psyker power and it still has to roll 1d6 for Penetration.

 

On the Tank Hunters, unless there is a current FAQ somewhere prohibiting it, then Living Metal does nothing about reducing that +1 to the d6 Penetration roll.

 

Meltabombs only roll 1d6 for Penetration, if someone wants to somehow argue that a meltabomb isn't a melta weapon (maybe because it is codex armories under "Wargear" instead of "Weapons"?), I'm cool with that, because it is irrelevant, since the meltabomb like a MC which also has an "innate" 2d6 Penetration roll, it still gets reduced to 1d6 Penetration by the Living Metal rule.

[Frosty the Pyro]

The bit with the unaugmented strength is a little confusing but not in conflict. The powerfist does not augment the strength of the user. It has its own strength wich is based on the users. for marines The powerfist itself attacks with strength 8, the person using the powerfist does not become strength 8, he is still strength 4, his weapon is strength 8, in the same manner that a lascannon is strength 9. Furios charge however does augment strength, and as such is ignored.