Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Furios charge however does augment strength, and as such is ignored. Furious Charge augments Strength in general, not just for armor penetration. I am not sure how it is exactly worded in the current codex/FAQ combination, but that is what we should focus on here as well. And does that whole unaugmented statement also take into account possible reductions to someone's Str? Do they hit the Monolith at their old, higher Str then? That would also be the logical rules conclusion. To get this discussion back on track: in this whole discussion we should not care about old prints or old FAQs of a rule. What we should care about is the current codex and current FAQ. So what does that combination specifically say? This is not clear from the information presented here so that is why I ask this now as I believe that is what we should focus on to answer this problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The FAQ no longer mentions Tank Hunters as ignored. Does a new printing of the codex negate Tank Hunters on the Monolith? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 My gut reaction is that Might stays at 2 D6. Why? Because that is effectively its 'base' unaugmented operating strength. It is not getting an 'extra armour penetration dice' or 'bonus dice' per se as that would mean throwing 3D6 surely? . Plus, what is the alternative as there is no option in the Might rule to use less than 2D6 ?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Does it specify Chainfists in it's exampe of what doesn't get an extra dice? If it does then that is pretty conclusive to me. It is the same mechanic as Might of Ancients (both don't receive an extra dice but a flat 2 Dice). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Does it specify Chainfists in it's exampe of what doesn't get an extra dice? If it does then that is pretty conclusive to me. It is the same mechanic as Might of Ancients (both don't receive an extra dice but a flat 2 Dice). Yes it does specify, as an example. My gut reaction is that Might stays at 2 D6. Why? Because that is effectively its 'base' unaugmented operating strength. It is not getting an 'extra armour penetration dice' or 'bonus dice' per se as that would mean throwing 3D6 surely? ;). Plus, what is the alternative as there is no option in the Might rule to use less than 2D6 ?? No, it doesn't. You only EVER get more than one D6 if you use Ordinance. Not sure on the tank hunters thing but I doubt it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 My gut reaction is that Might stays at 2 D6. Why? Because that is effectively its 'base' unaugmented operating strength. It is not getting an 'extra armour penetration dice' or 'bonus dice' per se as that would mean throwing 3D6 surely? B). Plus, what is the alternative as there is no option in the Might rule to use less than 2D6 ?? No, it doesn't. You only EVER get more than one D6 if you use Ordinance. Not sure on the tank hunters thing but I doubt it. thats not what the rule says though, it says that you dont get "bonus dice", it makes no mention of limiting to a single D6. the argument here is that anything which has a base pen value of 2D6 isnt getting a bonus dice in the same way as melta weapons and whatnot.. tbh im not sure which side of the fence to dismount on the MoA argument. generally i say nay to meltabombs and chainfists getting the second D6, so i really should say the same for might, but sometimes i often wonder whether or not im getting it right Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Mage Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The argument that getting 2d6 is not a bonus compared to 1d6 is.... well... awful. Bonus: Noun. Something extra that is good; An extra sum given as a premium, e.g. to an employee; To pay a bonus, premium First definition of a bonus sums it up nicely I think. 2d6 doesnt work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Commander Sasha Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 I'm not generally a fan of RAI, but to me it seems obvious that the "living metal" rule was designed to nerf all special tin openers. To argue that Meltabombs, MoA or any others can ignore it because of semantics does come across to me as cheeky. The Monolith is a slow, short-ranged and expensive vehicle; it's value lies in the fact that it is very tough to crack. Punch it with Dreadnaughts or ignore it and run away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 To mods: can we please have a this sorted and whatever conclusion is set upon put on the end of this by then locked thread in HUGE blood red letters and in simple terms so any 'what ifs', 'what abouts' and 'i thinks' can be put to rest. To everyone else + mods: For me and perhaps any other people who have been unfortunate enough to be regularly versing a monolith, or just lots of necrons frequently, this is getting ridiculous. It has been stated multiple times that no additional D6s are given...just take the answer, if not, just hold on to your deluded hopes till the next Codex: Necron comes around and crushes you with it's redefined living metal rules stating what 6-8 people with actual experience have been telling you. Then what will you do? Just let it go now and go back to lascannon spam or ignoring it...save yourselves. 'Tis just a game, and no amount of indecision should take away from the fact that the aim is to have fun. If you want to continually doubt someone's POV then become a barrister. If already in the legal profession aim to keep it at work. If you can't simply take the fact that the librarian is not a Monolith popping tool go outside and get a life. Do something constructive-like building a bridge, people will take notice and thank you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 @Orphus, I agree the d6 part is very much clear. My personal issue is with the 'unaugmented strength' part. Where is that? Latest version of rules? 4th of 5th edition FAQ? As this limits the possibilities even more. Example: One could make a case Power Fists actually augment Strength. One could also say Sanguine Sword (Librarian power that increases Str to 10) actually augment Strength. One could even make a case that weapons that always strike at Str X still augment the Strength of the model wielding it. And, as done before, one could make a case Furious Charge augments Strength. So, my question here is again: Which version of the Monolith rules or FAQ talk about unaugmented Strength? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 What I think is funny about all this, is people trying to game the system to get an advantage on Necrons of all things, they're necrons, ignore the monolith and kill the necrons. That said I play Necrons, have the codex in front of me and there is no possible way you could argue for MOA getting 2D6, the rules states that weapons that get additional (no bonus) penetration dice (then it lists chain fists, melta weapons, and Monstrous creatures as examples) do not get the extra dice against the monolith. The argument for not having an extra dice, because the attack normally has 2 dice is ridiculous given the examples. Monstrous creatures always get 2d6 it is not a "bonus" but they only get 1D6. In addition the end of the entry in the codex says Unmodified Strength + 1d6 no matter what. (Though it previously states ordinance get 2D6 take the highest). IMO RAW this means no attack can get more than 1d6. No 2D6, no +1d3 from rending no +1 form tank hunters. (1d6+1 does not equal 1d6) This is from the second printing of the Necron codex from 2002. The one quoted by most people (likely found online, scribed) is the first printing (as it does not state an edition on the cover page.) The edition of the codex is found above the addresses printed on the bottom of the cover page. The FAQ addresses power fists and such and says they do double the users ST for attacking the monolith, as such I would say that powers such as sanguine sword would also work (and MOA would count as S6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 The FAQ addresses power fists and such and says they do double the users ST for attacking the monolith, as such I would say that powers such as sanguine sword would also work (and MOA would count as S6). And what about Furious Charge then? Does that add as well? I understand the reasoning though, it is unmodified for the fact that they are hitting a tank. I think they key they try to get through is that stuff specifically designed to work good vs Armor values is negated their special rules on the Monolith, but things that increase Str on anything regardless if they are Armor values or not; like double Str Power Fists, Weapons with specific Str values, Psychic Powers that increase Str for an Assault Phase and Furious Charge, will still increase the user's Strength against Monoliths. The Tank Hunters debate is answered then as well, although this is NOT how it is worded but the RAI I take out of the FAQ ruling concerning Power Fists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
greatcrusade08 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 IIRC furuous charge is ignored when hitting a monolith Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 10, 2011 Share Posted January 10, 2011 Furious charge is modified strength and not mentioned in the FAQ, so no it would not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Furious charge is modified strength and not mentioned in the FAQ, so no it would not work. Right, just read the exact FAQ entry and I agree. The specifically state a few examples that are all weapons a model can take and add a 'and the like'. So it basicly boils down to: unmodified Strength (unless when given by weapons) + 1d6. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 maybe its me, but I'm looking at the Necron FAQ and see nothing about "unmodified strength". I know the 4th edition FAQ made furious charge and tank hunters not work on monoliths, but I nothing in the rules now seems to preclude them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 the unmodified St is in the codex not the FAQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 maybe its me, but I'm looking at the Necron FAQ and see nothing about "unmodified strength". I know the 4th edition FAQ made furious charge and tank hunters not work on monoliths, but I nothing in the rules now seems to preclude them. Do you have the 1st print of the codex? If so that could be the issue... the 5th ed FAQ lacks a number of the rules updates and clarifications made in the 4th ed FAQ which were put in the second printing of the necron dex... Personally I think the 4th ed faq was far better and since a number of the rules haven't changed and people might still be using the old dex they should have kept that stuff... You can still find the 4th ed FAQ on the GW website but you will need to google it as it isn't linked in the normal site navigation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesI Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 yeah, I think I have an old printing of the codex. I probably still have my 4th FAQ somewhere, just think its stupid of them not to keep those updates in the FAQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphus Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 yeah, I think I have an old printing of the codex. I probably still have my 4th FAQ somewhere, just think its stupid of them not to keep those updates in the FAQ. ..... The one quoted by most people (likely found online, scribed) is the first printing (as it does not state an edition on the cover page.) The edition of the codex is found above the addresses printed on the bottom of the cover page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 I'm not really clear on the result here? I agree that 2d6 armor pen is reduced to 1d6 in all cases. However, the unaugmented strength bit confuses me. It's the last line of the rule, as if a summary of the rule itself. All of the preceding lines refer to number of penetration dice...no mention of the base strength stat? Perhaps I'm mistaken? An example of rushing it to press perhaps; anyway, there it is. PFs and THs are in the FAQ as still modifying the Str, but no direct mention of psychic power or special rule effects. Sanguine Sword is I think written as "the attacks are resolved at Str 10"...so perhaps the caster's str isn't modified at all (or I'm misremembering entirely); what of MotA? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 15, 2011 Share Posted February 15, 2011 The rule says unmodified Strength of the weapon. So I think that Sanguine sword probably works, though it has not been made clear. The necron FAQ says power fists work so I would say Sword works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thade Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 So, I finally got home and to my BA dex...and it's pretty clear to me that it does work vs a lith. The writing of the Sanguine Sword rule pretty clearly says it's the weapon that is affected (not the Librarian) and that his attacks are made at Strength 10, not that *he* becomes Strength 10. Semantics are the bane of this game; so annoying. Anyway, thanks all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
breng77 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Actually if the weapon is affected it would not work. But as it does not say that his CCW counts as S 10, I would say that it operates like a power fist which does work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techmarine Data007 Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 If I had to weigh in, I'd say Sanguine Sword 'creates' a weapon for the Librarian that strikes at S10, much like Might does. I would, however, rule against the 2D6 pen in the case of Might. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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