What did Prospero Burns Contribute?

[Xisor]

Here's some pennies:

 

Agreeing with the OP, I thought the book was very enjoyable and of high quality.

Disagreeing: I thought it added a ton to 40k/30k.

 

Foremost

 

The transition for the space wolves from executioners through to them as unreliable, untrusted mavericks. Everyone's an Astartes-executioner in the 41st Millennium.

 

This also, in my esteem, added some light to the notion solidified in First Heretic of the primarchs being created 'for a purpose'. More than that, it offered up the opportunity that Russ himself was weakly delusional. The firm belief from several of the primarchs that they have a calling (Lorgar's religiosity, Magnus' sorcery, Russ' executioner duties, Night Haunter's obedience-through-terror etc) was almost parodied here, wherein one could argue (without too much of a stretch or reading between the lines) that the persecution of Magnus and the forces arrayed against him weren't just the manipulations of the Amon-daemon, weren't just the hatred of Mortarion and the bias of Russ. Rather: the idea that Russ himself instigated much of this by fostering the idea that he has to be killing Astartes to be doing his job makes it a very complex idea indeed.

 

Sure, it can be rejected rather easily, but even the consideration of the question is an interesting contribution to 30k. Concisely: Russ became too focussed on his legion being 'of a purpose' (much like Sigismund's 'eternal war', the Alpha Legion's 'the Great Crusade is an end, not a means', Abaddon/Typhon's belief that the Astartes are/should soon (to) be ascendant over the primarchs and humanity itself etc) that it blinded him to or perverted the course of the Emperor's will long before Nikaea.

 

Secondly

 

There was an immense look into activity in unification/crusade-era Terra. Where Mechanicum and Blood Games built up some nice detail on the era, Prospero Burns really pushed the boat out. Lemuria, Mu? The flying artificial continents? Hell, I liked that imagery alone, and that's only the (rather noticeable and memorable) tip of the iceberg.

 

Thirdly

 

Continuity & discontinuity to 40k. As already mentioned, at present there's a massive gulf between 40k/30k wolves as presented here (and in ATS, not so much in Battle for the Abyss, but it's safe to say Counter dropped the ball on Brynngar vs Skraal and Mhotep, regardless of other factors), but there's also snippets. The 'cutesy' look at Bear, for instance. A look into the Aett/Fang itself. There was the small point of Enuncia.

 

There was a good deal of it which, if it had dovetailed so completely as others seem to have wished with ATS, could very easily have resulted in 'small galaxy syndrome' with precisely the same characters cropping up again and again. Detachment from Russ, the primarchs, the setup in ATS meant that, in my esteem, we got a much more credible and well-rounded view of the Wolves in companion to ATS. Not one story from two sides, but two very different stories intertwined with each other and with major plot aspects being evident only in light of the other books.

 

Conversely

 

The first fifty pages or so were exceptionally dull, meandering and purposelessly long. I see his intent and I appreciate that a lot of very good writing, very technically impressive wordsmithsmanship (<< unlike this word) but the first fifty pages were so off-kilter with the rest of the otherwise excellent book that the whole thing felt seriously undermined. The meat of what occurred then could've been condensed into ten pages, with forty pages leftover for more pertinent exploration of backstory, a sneaky subplot or what many people (myself not especially included) seem to have wanted: more Russ/action/insight into ATS.

 

That's the major weakness for me. The rest of the book was an outstanding gem that didn't rest on odd plot-twists/lore-nuggets like Legion. The characters were less developed/entertaining than those in Horus Rising, but the ideas and methods used to write the story marked a surprising improvement in Dan's talents.

 

Plenty to consider. Again, the amusing contrast to Valtonis' last point is that, in my reading of it, I'm left with a lingering suspicion that many of the primarchs were deluded to one degree or another regarding their supposed purpose. Did they all have one? What was Vulkan's purpose? Was it different from the Lion's? I can see the belief of being executioners being a massive 'backwards rationalising' for the Wolves to cope with what they do, not a reason for what they do. It's not strictly that, but as mentioned previously, I rather like the notion.

[Hergrmir]

I actually thought it was pretty damn good. I agree that the title was misleading, but hell, I couldn't care less about reading more 'and then this blew up, and then that fell over, and then he punched the other guy'. We all KNOW the wolves sack Prospero, and we got a lot of that sacking happening in A Thousand Sons anyway. But yeah, the title should have been There Are No Wolves or something, because Prospero Burns does suggest it's about something altogether different.

 

I think the whole cultural aspect of the Space Wolves was played up very well. A long time ago someone suggested here that the Space Wolves are the closest thing 40k has to a depiction of certain aboriginal peoples of the Americas - animal spirits, earth-y magic, limited war, etc. etc. Getting further into the legion showed that Dan's aware that if they were ONLY Vikings in space they'd be as dull as the Khan's Mongols in space currently are. Bringing together multiple influences to form a cohesive whole is one way to produce some interesting sci-fi/fantasy.

 

Now, I actually don't like the Gaunt's Ghosts books whatsoever, but I REALLY liked Brothers of the Snake. I think that's probably one of the most interesting depictions of a Space Marine in 40k novels. See, I take it for a given that lots Space Marines ARE emotionally stunted. Imagine a bunch of 12 year olds that are given super powers and immortality, and see how they think, and I think you'd be pretty close to many of the Astartes. So IMHO, they're best shown when you have a human with the full range of emotions alongside. I mean, Space Marines literally do not feel fear. It makes them effective combatants, but it totally removes them from being able to understand humans.

 

So that, to me, sets off what makes chapters like the Salamanders, Crimson Fists or Blood Angels (or for that matter, Space Wolves), and various PH Legions so interesting - that they try, despite it all, to understand who this 'Man' that they're supposed to be defending is. The Abaddon/Typhon school of thought is just self-aggrandising behaviour you'd expect from a self-important bully.

 

If Space Marines are merely humans+, then you might as well call them Elves and be done with it, who are are traditionally just like humans, but better on every given metric. Space Marines need flaws to be interesting, and those flaws are best highlighted in comparison to mundane humans. It's neat, to me, that the folks with the biggest stones in Prospero Burns were the skjald and the Prosperine Spireguard. They felt fear, and yet they stayed to the bitter, bloody end. I also liked the little references to Lemuel Gaumon and the handsome Spireguard captain, who I took as being the one who one of the female remembrancers was seeing at the end of A Thousand Sons.

[Doghouse]

I seriously struggled with most of a Thousand Sons and thought that not enough of the book was given to the actual battle for the planet. Same could be said for Prospero Burns, great insight into Fenrisian culture and a really nice take on the SWs but in the build up to the books being written I thought they'd be telling the two sides of the conflict in greater detail but the battle just felt tacked on at the end of the books to tie them together which was a real shame. :)

[Gunslinger87]

I really liked the book and I think that the development of the wolves beyond just a one-dimensional legion was very much appreciated and needed.

 

However, what I was slightly confused about was the fact that after all that talk about how they cooperated with Graham McNeill, the two books Prospero Burns and Thousand Sons are hardly two accounts of the same event. The overlap is ultimately VERY small. By this I mean that after reading TS you perhaps expected to see more of the trial (the parts that weren't revealed may be in PB... well they weren't... and it is unlikely we will get a third book, so why leave those juicy bits out?) The same with the actual battle... or we never even saw that Psychic shockwave by Leman Russ and how that was from the POV of the SW. Of course you can't just write a mirror image of a novel and I really liked the whole Upplander arc... I just expected (and boy I can't believe I'm saying this) more exposition.

 

I just don't feel that after reading TS and PB I know what I wanted to about the sacking of Prospero... despite having 2 novels about it... Anybody else know what I mean?

 

At least TS gave us an overarching view... PB was very narrow (and while quite appealing as a story) lacking the HH element. The contribution that others were talking about here...

 

 

Edit: Anybody else think PB could very easily be a regular 40K story? It works better in the 30K setting, but think about it... I mean it isn't like something A D-B said (taking a great setting can be a no miss scenario and a book will appeal even if it is poorly written)... this is written very well. But maybe really well for a standalone story... not as half of a two-parter.

[Valkyrion]

Like with the rest of the books, the real story is in the single sentences and half truths that come out.

 

Thats where the story is. The snippets of (false) information about the missing legions, the void dragon, the nature of chaos and so on. As nice as it is to read about the origins of a legion, most of the interesting parts come out in the dialogue. The battles are the boring bits, for me at least.

[tiberium40k]

It was boring as hell. There, I said it. I know a ton of you will disagree with this, but I FELL ASLEEP three times while reading it. This never happened to me with the supposedly "uninteresting" 40k novels. It was basically "Legion" again: tons and tons of needless, boring filler.

 

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that, by which I dont mean the book has to be all about describing the battle, but that the battle needs to be the central part of the book and not "oh, and they attacked Prospero". Hell, I am a big fan of spy fiction and political thrillers, but its not what I expect from a book named "Prospero Burns". The book should have been named "Kasper Hawser and the Vilka Fenryka", but I guess people wouldn`t buy it then. Dan Abnett should really stop writing Space Marine stuff; look what he did with "Ultramarines".

[Ornestahl]

It was boring as hell. There, I said it. I know a ton of you will disagree with this, but I FELL ASLEEP three times while reading it. This never happened to me with the supposedly "uninteresting" 40k novels. It was basically "Legion" again: tons and tons of needless, boring filler. Just like in "A Thousand Sons", the first hundred and fifty pages have little purpose whatsoever, but unlike ATS it didnt pick things up later in the book.

 

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that, by which I dont mean the book has to be all about describing the battle, but that the battle needs to be the central part of the book and not "oh, and they attacked Prospero". Hell, I am a big fan of spy fiction and political thrillers, but its not what I expect from a book named "Prospero Burns". The book should have been named "Kasper Hawser and the Vilka Fenryka", but I guess people wouldn`t buy it then. Dan Abnett should really stop writing Space Marine stuff; look what he did with "Ultramarines".

 

Well Tiberium40k, guess taste is like :D, everyone got one. You fell asleep, where i found a book i couldnt put down.

Dan has writen awesome SM litterature through his career in my eyes, guess i saw PB as a prelude to ATS and got all the battle stuff in ATS while PB built up to the how and Why of the mater, you see i knew before any of the books was released what the ending would be, to me the ending ie the battle wasnt what was important but the jorney there and Abnett and McNeil really gave me a ride that gave me pause for thought on my perception on 2 legions i have scoffed and dismised as boring, i had an SW army many years ago, when this game was called Rogue Trader and for the first time since 2nd ed came out i really feel like collecting SW again, for once the wolves are more than cartoonish stereotypical vikings in space. But as said to each theirown and im sorry you didnt enjoy this book or Abnetts earlier SM work, guess you cant please em all.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that...

 

The Force is weak within you, young Padawan learner.

 

 

Prospero Burns - whilst detailing the battle in a marginal way - was there to give an insight into the Wolves of Russ but more importantly to show why Prospero burned.

[tiberium40k]

Well Tiberium40k, guess taste is like :cuss, everyone got one.You fell asleep, where i found a book i couldnt put down.

Dan has writen awesome SM litterature through his career in my eyes, guess i saw PB as a prelude to ATS and got all the battle stuff in ATS while PB built up to the how and Why of the mater, you see i knew before any of the books was released what the ending would be, to me the ending ie the battle wasnt what was important but the jorney there and Abnett and McNeil really gave me a ride that gave me pause for thought on my perception on 2 legions i have scoffed and dismised as boring, i had an SW army many years ago, when this game was called Rogue Trader and for the first time since 2nd ed came out i really feel like collecting SW again, for once the wolves are more than cartoonish stereotypical vikings in space. But as said to each theirown and im sorry you didnt enjoy this book or Abnetts earlier SM work, guess you cant please em all.

 

Dont you mean opinions are like :cuss? BTW, really nice way to start a reply, dude.

 

So what if you knew what the ending would be? I know the ending of the entire Horus Heresy series, and that still doesnt mean the books themselves have to be boring. I can honestly say I like almost every HH book, but the "how" and "why" in Prospero Burns isnt nearly as well laid out as say in The First Heretic. And (strangely enough :D ) The Fist Heretic is actually about the Word Bearers and their fall, and not about the life and times of unimportant characters that only appear in a single book. Dan could have explained the how and why while doing the Sacking of Propsero at the same time, but if didnt want to, then he should not have named this book Prospero Burns.

[tiberium40k]

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that...

 

The Force is weak within you, young Padawan learner.

 

 

Prospero Burns - whilst detailing the battle in a marginal way - was there to give an insight into the Wolves of Russ but more importantly to show why Prospero burned.

 

We dont get to the "why Prospero burns" part until half the book jumping between the history of Kapser Hawser and a radom set of scenes.

 

And I will be seeing you in SWTOR, Jedi. :D

[Captain Juan Juarez]

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that...

 

The Force is weak within you, young Padawan learner.

 

 

Prospero Burns - whilst detailing the battle in a marginal way - was there to give an insight into the Wolves of Russ but more importantly to show why Prospero burned.

 

We dont get to the "why Prospero burns" part until half the book jumping between the history of Kapser Hawser and a radom set of scenes.

 

And I will be seeing you in SWTOR, Jedi. :D

 

They are random because you don't see a pattern to them, doesn't mean they actually are random.. Anger is clouding your thoughts :cuss

 

You have your opinion, which is cool.. But my take is that the book is there to show the culture of the Wolves of Fenris - as I said - but more importantly the subtle poison that prompted the Prospero action; it was more than just "Daddy said don't do this, but you did it..."

 

Prospero burned for a number of reasons, all of which you get in a book laced with Crusade era Wolves data.

[Xisor]

You see, when I buy a book called "Prospero Burns", I expect the book to be about that.

 

With words like that, and the sentiments expressed about the place, it seems that when you buy a book you don't expect to have to think about it. Not to mention that the above quote is a pretty silly sentiment.

 

I mean: You do actually see the role that Kasper Hawser has in the sacking of Prospero, right? You actually have read and understood the book?

 

That is: He's a spy. Russ is convinced he's Magnus' spy (without much in the way of evidence). Russ firmly believes his legion is a legion of anti-Legion troops. That's their purpose. He justifies this repeatedly, really pressing it. Really believes it. Evidence? Again, not much. There's a quite plausible notion that Russ invented the whole thing without even realising, concocting and persecuting Magnus whilst believing he was doing it out of love for his brother...

 

It's very easy to see the horrific flaws in Russ and his Wolves simmering under the surface. Their self-belief (I'd be inclined to argue self-delusion) of discipline blinds them and allowed them to effectively set up their own "Burn Prospero!" agenda (on the cue of Chaos).

 

It's not the only agenda, but it is a pretty strong contender for displaying Dan's actual motive for doing stuff the way he did.

 

That said, I heartily concur on the thought that there's a lot more of a story to tell. Or rather: there are other aspects to the Sacking of Prospero which haven't actually been told. I don't think they're integral parts though. We can now see why the Wolves did what they did and why the Thousand Sons did what they did. But there's more stories there, more interesting stuff surely happened. But two fine, intertwined and mutually informing books have been published on it for now. Will they forbid people from writing stories on Prospero? No, I don't think they will. Just as how "Fulgrim" didn't tell the only story of the Dropsite Massacre.

[ANCIENT FALOR]

I don't think PB was a horrible book. However with the title. I just expected it to have a good portion dedicated to the battle. it gave the wolves more character. Which is good. Well there's more novels to come. Hopefully we get a short story someday. From the view of a 1k sons squad amonst the war in prospero.

[Brother Captain Gladius]

I think most people are getting bogged down with the title, its not a Prospero book, its a SW book that happens to involve the battle at Prospero. Had they have called it something else, I am sure we would all be raving about what an amazing SW novel it is............which it is!!

[tiberium40k]

With words like that, and the sentiments expressed about the place, it seems that when you buy a book you don't expect to have to think about it. Not to mention that the above quote is a pretty silly sentiment.

 

And what was so thought-provoking and cerebral about this book? Kasper`s background? Fenrisian culture? The dreams that keep repeating and are ultimately solved by (yet again) a daemon? The firefight in Nikaea that somehow nobody in the gigantic ampitheatre noticed? The demonic revelation that was pretty obvious? The notion that knowing someone`s name gives you power over them? I guess you mean the connections between these events, but they are pretty obvoius to me. So we get a few interesting snapshots of Terra and Fenrisian culture, an obvious revelation about Chaos and Enuncia is mentioned. Thats Prospero Burns in a nutshell. All these aspects would fit well in a book that focuses on the Space Wolf side of the Battle of Prospero.

 

If the book was called "Sons of Fenris" and advertised as a stand alone Space Wolf book and not a counterpart to ATS, I would probably have accepted the book better. Even if I would still be annoyed by how much emphasis Kasper got. Im sorry if I come off as a whiner, but I expected much more from this book.

 

I mean: You do actually see the role that Kasper Hawser has in the sacking of Prospero, right?

 

What, Russ thinking he was a TS spy? Yes, I saw it. It was an interesting point, giving Russ another reason to dislike Magnus, but it was also very transparent he wasnt a TS spy if you have read ATS, which made the daemon`s reveal all the less shocking. I did like Russ`s plea to Magnus though.

[Hergrmir]

If the book was called "Sons of Fenris" and advertised as a stand alone Space Wolf book and not a counterpart to ATS, I would probably have accepted the book better.

 

This I can agree with. It was rather poorly titled and advertised, even if was supposed to be 'Why Prospero Burns'. Still a good book IMHO, but terribly misleading title.

[Chowda]

I have been ignoring this thread until I completed it, I wanted to make some untainted comments.

 

This book makes me want to cry from HH reader perspective, here is why:

 

* The "big reveal" 300 pages in was a reveal about the book's story, not the Heresy.

 

* The "holy crap wow!!!!!!" reveal with the dream turned out to be Chaos. Not any specific god or daemon, just the primordial annihilator. Yawn.

 

* A "spy" who wasn't really necessary. Pretty much everyone who mattered acknowledged there are spies everywhere, even chapters watching other chapters. If Hawser had slipped on the ice and cracked open his head at any time, it wouldn't have mattered.

 

* Wouldn't Russ have distrusted Magnus more if he knew he had spies among him, but had no idea who? Having a card like he did would be something Russ would have used as a means for reconciliation, in my opinion, not elimination.

 

* I have to go back and look at A Thousand Sons. Did the incident on Nikea even matter in the judgment? I thought the whole point of it was the emperor knew going in he was going to sanction Magnus. I get the whole point of creating distrust between the legions, but on a galactic scale did it really matter?

[Chowda]

Prospero Burns - whilst detailing the battle in a marginal way - was there to give an insight into the Wolves of Russ but more importantly to show why Prospero burned.

Did the worlds of The Quietude burn? Yep

 

Would the emperor still have ordered the attack on the 15th if the events exclusive to Prospero Burns did not occur? Yep

[Ju'kosian]

Well the novel gave some more insight in the lives of the space wolves.

I don't really understand why the World eaters & Nightlords were sanctioned (or at least proposed to be sanctioned) by other legions if you get

to see what the Space wolves are about.

They're the best in what they do, and what they do isn't too nice.. :o

 

Seriously the Wolves are called to be the executioners of the Emperor, but I don't really see what they can do more then other legions could..

Allright I don't see guilliman and sanguinius rushing in with their legion like that..

But given the chance/command I can see the World eaters/Nightlords/Sons of Horus be used as executioners too..

 

There's also a little hint that the wolves were called upon before to destroy another astartes legion..

Combining this with the hint from 'First heretic" that the Ultramarines got so large in numbers when the 2 mysterious missing legions actually were gone..

 

could it be, (hypothetical) that If Magnus would have surrendered.. he would be uesed for the Golden throne, (mentioned before in fluff) but that his legion would have been incorperated in other legions ??

[ProtoClone]

Came back to this site after a while away because I have started reading this book...and about half way through I am already feeling like I was not going to get what I wanted from it. Glad to know I shouldn't expect what I had hoped and enjoy what the ride is about.

[tiberium40k]

There's also a little hint that the wolves were called upon before to destroy another astartes legion..

Combining this with the hint from 'First heretic" that the Ultramarines got so large in numbers when the 2 mysterious missing legions actually were gone..

 

could it be, (hypothetical) that If Magnus would have surrendered.. he would be uesed for the Golden throne, (mentioned before in fluff) but that his legion would have been incorperated in other legions ??

 

I dont see how you can possibly combine the SW`s assertion and the WB rumour. If the purged legions were destroyed, what could have possibly been left for the Ultramarines to absorb? The Space Wolves ouright claim they have "sanctioned" other legions before, so logically it could be concluded it was about the purged legions. The other claim is a conspiracy theory brought forth by members of a legion that hate the Ultras, so its nowhere near the certanty as the Space Wolf claim is.

 

And Magnus did surrender, it was his legion that resisted. If the Thousand Sons have surrendered, Emperor knows (literally) what would have happened to them.

[Ju'kosian]

maybe because all the horus heresy novels together form the Horus heresy ??

If the Emperor would have intervened the wolves would not have destroyed an entire legion.. good puppies as they are ;-)

[tiberium40k]

maybe because all the horus heresy novels together form the Horus heresy ??

 

So EVERYTHING in them is true? No room for lies, deceptions and whatnot? Sure, the claims cover the same subject, but the SW claim and WB claim invalidate each other.

 

If the Emperor would have intervened the wolves would not have destroyed an entire legion.. good puppies as they are ;-)

 

Well, the Emperor did only send them there to pick Magnus up. Horus gave the "exterminate" order.

[Bulwyf]

I am a fan of DA but I was disappointed by this novel. On its own it is in fact a good read with Hawser's struggles for remembering who he was and what happened with him and the culture of the Space Wolves at the time of the Heresy. But it falls apart as a piece of the expanded HH collection because it has almost nothing to do with the Heresy at large.

 

As others have stated the only big "reveal" was that Horus or some agent of Chaos had deliberately provoked the situation to have the SW attack the TS even though both were loyal. That is something I wager most long time fans of 40k already surmised simply due to the blatant overtures Tchar has always had with the TS. You knew Chaos had to manipulate the events to force them to join Chaos and drive another wedge in the Imperium.

 

I was hoping for more primarch to primarch interaction with Russ and Magnus and was completely disappointed in that regard. There was zero interaction in this novel between them. If this novel was supposed to be the "other side of the story" from Thousand Sons then it failed completely and utterly in that regard. I have to question why this book was even written in the first place. It offered no new explanations as to why Prospero burned and frankly the "big reveal" could easily have happened in Thousand Sons.

 

If anything if would have been better off telling the story of how the two missing Legions were wiped out or otherwise dismantled and how the SW were involved. This was a major disappointment just like "Legion" was. We learned almost nothing of anything substance of the Alpha Legion in that novel with 90% of the novel dealing with a throwaway character no one frankly cared or would care about since the entire reason a reader would have interest is in the Legion itself. Just as with "Prospero Burns" you get the vast majority of the novel concentrated on one throwaway character no one cared about or would care about and the real meat of why you bought the book in the first place reduced to almost nothing.

 

This is the second time Abnett has gotten away with this in the same series. As much as I am a fan of his I frankly hope he never writes another Heresy novel. I don't need another novel where you can skip 90% of the novel with a throwaway character just to find any real meat that a reader actually cares about.

[JamesI]

Everyone, lets watch the language. There is no need to swear in getting our opinions across.