What did Prospero Burns Contribute?

[obs0l3te]

Bulwyf said it best.

 

If PB had been named "Fenris" or "The Wolves" and not set up as PB I would only have been upset with the "New Fluff" with the book. Good book, but I wanted Space Wolves, Russ and dead TS as it was promoted as such.

 

Not a good 1st act for the wolves.

[ArsGratiaArtis]

I am a fan of DA but I was disappointed by this novel. On its own it is in fact a good read with Hawser's struggles for remembering who he was and what happened with him and the culture of the Space Wolves at the time of the Heresy. But it falls apart as a piece of the expanded HH collection because it has almost nothing to do with the Heresy at large.

 

As others have stated the only big "reveal" was that Horus or some agent of Chaos had deliberately provoked the situation to have the SW attack the TS even though both were loyal. That is something I wager most long time fans of 40k already surmised simply due to the blatant overtures Tchar has always had with the TS. You knew Chaos had to manipulate the events to force them to join Chaos and drive another wedge in the Imperium.

 

I was hoping for more primarch to primarch interaction with Russ and Magnus and was completely disappointed in that regard. There was zero interaction in this novel between them. If this novel was supposed to be the "other side of the story" from Thousand Sons then it failed completely and utterly in that regard. I have to question why this book was even written in the first place. It offered no new explanations as to why Prospero burned and frankly the "big reveal" could easily have happened in Thousand Sons.

 

If anything if would have been better off telling the story of how the two missing Legions were wiped out or otherwise dismantled and how the SW were involved. This was a major disappointment just like "Legion" was. We learned almost nothing of anything substance of the Alpha Legion in that novel with 90% of the novel dealing with a throwaway character no one frankly cared or would care about since the entire reason a reader would have interest is in the Legion itself. Just as with "Prospero Burns" you get the vast majority of the novel concentrated on one throwaway character no one cared about or would care about and the real meat of why you bought the book in the first place reduced to almost nothing.

 

This is the second time Abnett has gotten away with this in the same series. As much as I am a fan of his I frankly hope he never writes another Heresy novel. I don't need another novel where you can skip 90% of the novel with a throwaway character just to find any real meat that a reader actually cares about.

 

This reader cares about well-developed characters and intriguing stories. Legion and now Prospero Burns are my two favorite Heresy books. The Rout are my favorite of the official chapters, have been since I got into the world of 40K with 3rd Edition and bought Bill King's Space Wolf. I couldn't be more pleased with Prospero Burns. John Grammaticus and Kasper Hauser were new characters that made me give a damn about them. I looked forward to the revelations about Hauser's past and how he ended up on Fenris way more than I did the actual burning of Prospero which I'd already gotten more than enough of in Thousand Sons. The only parts I'm ever tempted to skip are the tedious battle scenes in these books, all bolters and chainblades. That's not what I care about. I care about the character's Abnett introduces and how through their eyes I'm reintroduced to a Legion I've loved and thought I knew, or become enamored with a Legion I previously couldn't care less about as in Legion.

[Aegnor]

Agree largely with the immediately above post. Apart from anything else, an illustration of how much chaos manipulated the situation was interesting - previously it could have been read as happening solely through Horus' twisting of the Emperor's orders for Russ. As for the lack of interaction between Magnus and Russ, I'd argue we got lots of insight into Russ's attitudes towards Magnus, which is the same thing - via Russ's actions at Nikea and in Russ's (attempted) message to Magnus via Hawser.

 

EDIT: I agree the title was a poor fit though. No reason not to call it "The Wolves of Fenris".

[tiberium40k]

But it falls apart as a piece of the expanded HH collection because it has almost nothing to do with the Heresy at large.

 

...

 

This was a major disappointment just like "Legion" was. We learned almost nothing of anything substance of the Alpha Legion in that novel with 90% of the novel dealing with a throwaway character no one frankly cared or would care about since the entire reason a reader would have interest is in the Legion itself. Just as with "Prospero Burns" you get the vast majority of the novel concentrated on one throwaway character no one cared about or would care about and the real meat of why you bought the book in the first place reduced to almost nothing.

 

This is the second time Abnett has gotten away with this in the same series. As much as I am a fan of his I frankly hope he never writes another Heresy novel. I don't need another novel where you can skip 90% of the novel with a throwaway character just to find any real meat that a reader actually cares about.

 

Agreed. What I want from the Horus Heresy is an epic galactic war, and thus far I can honestly say that I find WWI to be more interesting.

[Valkyrion]

WWI is more interesting, far more interesting than any science fiction and only slightly less interesting than the most interesting war ever, WWII.

 

Hawser and Grammaticus are two of the best characters in the entire series. Space Marines are starchy, humourless types in the main, with little in the way of character development - they can't have a love interest, they don't feel any human emotions and all you can really get from them is they are killy and fearless.

Thats not to say they are dull, but to get the human element you need a proper character. Abnett is the only one to do this with any real aplomb and that's why his books are, by and large, the best.

[tiberium40k]

WWI is more interesting, far more interesting than any science fiction and only slightly less interesting than the most interesting war ever, WWII.

 

Perhaps interesting is the wrong word, since so much can be learned about WWI and studied from both a historical and alt-historical perspective. Grandeur would be a better word. To me, WWI has far more gradeur then the Horus Heresy, as so far the Heresy does not feel like a galactic war with humnogous ramifications. This is why I liked Mechanicum and Nemesis; they show there is much more going on with the war.

 

Hawser and Grammaticus are two of the best characters in the entire series.

 

I disagree, but that aside, did both of them really need a book dedicated to them? Especially since the books werent supposed to cover them?

 

Space Marines are starchy, humourless types in the main, with little in the way of character development - they can't have a love interest, they don't feel any human emotions and all you can really get from them is they are killy and fearless.

Thats not to say they are dull, but to get the human element you need a proper character.

 

What about the original trilogy or ATS or TFH? They manage to balance the Astartes view and the normal human view, cover what they are supposed to be about AND be good books on top of that. Legion and PB did not achieve this. Fulgrim and FotE give more emphasis on the Astartes, but they arent any worse because of it.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

I have to agree with tiberium40k on this one. The Grammaticus route worked in Legion because it felt proper in the shady nature of the book and the Legion it was supposed to represent; we get to see the surface but virtually nothing of the depth of the Alpha Legion, and I liked that because it leaves everything open to possibility. Repeating the same paradigm with Hawser shortchanged the Space Wolves, IMO, and it didn't feel right at all; if the intent was to pull a Thirteenth Warrior/Eaters of the Dead schtick, it didn't work out so well. I liked the book well enough, but I truly think a better story could have been told from an actual SW perspective, not Abnett's hesitance at writing Astartes characters. We know he's capable, Horus Rising proved that; why he's balked twice in a row now makes me wonder if he only did it that way because he was already putting words into another non-Astartes book at the same time and just didn't want to change tracks.

[Valkyrion]

But through Hawser you learn of the Space Wolves almost melancholic attitude to war. Without the human perspective you wouldn't gain the astartes perspective. Two space wolves talking amongst themselves wouldn't reveal anything, because they don't know or understand what they feel. Hawser learns from them and reinterprets in a human way.

 

I appreciate that Hawser got a lot/too much air time at the expense of characterising an individual space wolf properly but I felt that it added an appropriate measure of human understanding into a space marines psyche.

Grammaticus was something different, he wasn't really a human as such and didn't really learn about the Alpha Legion, rather tried to inveigle them.

Hawser was learning about the space wolves, and in doing so taught the reader about them. In Legion you learned all about the Legion from their own characters.

 

I think we got depth with the space wolves - we learned how they make war, how they view themselves in the bigger picture, how the emperor and other legions view them, we learned of their culture from human to space marine, their organisation and beliefs. Thats quite deep really. It was all just explained from someone elses point of view - there wasn't a Tarvitz or Loken or Argel Tal helping us understand the legion, it was an outsider.

 

I hope I'm making myself clear...

[Bulwyf]

I have to agree with tiberium40k on this one. The Grammaticus route worked in Legion because it felt proper in the shady nature of the book and the Legion it was supposed to represent; we get to see the surface but virtually nothing of the depth of the Alpha Legion, and I liked that because it leaves everything open to possibility. Repeating the same paradigm with Hawser shortchanged the Space Wolves, IMO, and it didn't feel right at all; if the intent was to pull a Thirteenth Warrior/Eaters of the Dead schtick, it didn't work out so well. I liked the book well enough, but I truly think a better story could have been told from an actual SW perspective, not Abnett's hesitance at writing Astartes characters. We know he's capable, Horus Rising proved that; why he's balked twice in a row now makes me wonder if he only did it that way because he was already putting words into another non-Astartes book at the same time and just didn't want to change tracks.

 

This defeats the entire purpose of the Horus Heresy novels as I mentioned in my earlier post. We are buying these as readers to finally learn the real secrets and truths of what happened and what these Legions were. By giving us books like Legion and Prospero Burns we are learning almost nothing we did not know before and are given flippant throw away characters that absolutely no one cares about or has any attachment with. You already know on the first page any human is long dead by now. You are reading it to get details on the Alpha Legion and to finally learn about them and their mysterious Primarch. Instead you get a novel that is 90% about a character you don't give a flying pop tart about and only tidbits of anything substantial. The same holds true with Prospero Burns albeit not to that degree. At least here we learn some more of Space Wolf culture.

 

But we are still denied real information and real context around principal characters. Russ was hardly even in the novel, Magnus was not even in the novel at all. We learn one significant detail that easily could have been revealed in Thousand Sons. Quite honestly I feel as a reader that I was cheated out of money by the purchase. I have never seen a more misleading title in Black Library's history.

[tiberium40k]

But through Hawser you learn of the Space Wolves almost melancholic attitude to war. Without the human perspective you wouldn't gain the astartes perspective. Two space wolves talking amongst themselves wouldn't reveal anything, because they don't know or understand what they feel. Hawser learns from them and reinterprets in a human way.

 

But we dont get the Astartes perspective. What we do get is Hawser`s perspective, a rather tiring series of events from his personal history, and his dreams. This book is more about him and it deals more with his plot then it does with the Heresy itself.

 

I think we got depth with the space wolves - we learned how they make war, how they view themselves in the bigger picture, how the emperor and other legions view them, we learned of their culture from human to space marine, their organisation and beliefs. Thats quite deep really. It was all just explained from someone elses point of view - there wasn't a Tarvitz or Loken or Argel Tal helping us understand the legion, it was an outsider.

 

But this - and the fluff changes/additions - makes less then a third of the book, if that much.

[Chowda]

John Grammaticus and Kasper Hauser were new characters that made me give a damn about them.

I finished the book 9 days ago and had to go back to remind me who John Grammaticus was.

 

We get about 3-4 HH books a year tops and this one was delayed. There's really not much you can say to convince the disappointed fans they actually did enjoy this book like they did Horus Rising, A Thousand Sons, and The First Heretic.

[Aegnor]

It was delayed cause Abnett was sick, wasn't it?

 

Personally don't understand how you can read a book and within two weeks not remember the main narrative character. I think the Heresy series would be pretty boring if every book was the same, with just the names and armour colour changing.

[obs0l3te]

WAIT it all makes sense now...

 

Hawser = Grammaticus placed with the wolves via the Cabal (The guys that the alpha Legion met with) Grammaticus was just brain washed yet again to take on Hawser.

 

Every thing we saw, even all the new fluff, was just an illusion from the covenant, because they don't know any thing about wolves they just needed something close.

 

Alpharus/Omega will wake up in book three and blink a few times. Realize how bad this chapter in the horus heresy really was, and thus try to destroy the imperium because they, after seeing "prospero burns" like the rest of us lost our minds because it was a great book with GREAT potential and a good read, but it FAILED to be about what it was supposed to be about.

 

so again.. I blame the Cabal, the Alpha Legion for listening to Xenos scum, and John.

 

 

its kind of like a Steven Segual Movie, every movie is different but basically the same... all of the main characters are "Ninja assassin, x-police, x-special operations military that specialize in Arse kickary, that is so bad it could take out any one, the only man to defeat him was chuck norris, and that was because he punched him with his beard chin creating Seguals massive stomach. in the end, its all the same guy with the same background just different name.....

[tiberium40k]

Personally don't understand how you can read a book and within two weeks not remember the main narrative character.

 

Well, if you dont give a damn about him...

 

I think the Heresy series would be pretty boring if every book was the same, with just the names and armour colour changing.

 

You just explained Legion and PB rather well there. ^_^

[Valkyrion]

Hmmm...I don't think you've read either book properly if you've come to that conclusion.

 

Grammaticus and Hawser are completely different personalities, with different agendas and different stories.

The only similarity between them is that they are human and they spend their time with a legion. Just like Sindermann, Oliton, Keeler and the rest of the remembrancers.

 

People are getting too hung up on the title to form a proper opinion on the actual story.

It's not the best HH book, not by a long way, but it does provide a good insight into the nature of the Space Wolves and their role in the greater scheme of things. It pretty much explains everything - organisation, tactics, culture etc.

 

It doesn't matter from which source that information comes - but Abnett tackled two Legions who don't want to be known or remembered in the traditional sense and he needed a human character to get across who they were.

[tiberium40k]

Grammaticus and Hawser are completely different personalities, with different agendas and different stories.

 

I guess it was a bit unfair, since Gramatticus didnt get a quarter of the book dealing with his own background so he gets a +1 modifier.

 

The only similarity between them is that they are human and they spend their time with a legion. Just like Sindermann, Oliton, Keeler and the rest of the remembrancers.

 

Except Keeler, Oilton and Sindermann didnt get a book dedicated to their view, and they had a far larger effect on the Horus Heresy. Ironically, these characters will be more memorable then Grammaticus and Hawser; a photo taken by Keeler gets an upcoming Eisenhorn short dedicated to it while these two will probably never get mentioned again.

[Clewz]

Legion needed to told from the point of view of someone outside the legion for it to work. The whole secret and lies thing would of been lame otherwise.

 

Prospero burns is a bit more intriguing one. I think he wrote from hawsers point of view because there wouldnt of been much depth if just done from the astartes view. I do believe he should of made more use of Fith though, perhaps going back on some of his memories as he is inducted into the spacewolves.

[Valkyrion]

Except Keeler, Oilton and Sindermann didnt get a book dedicated to their view, and they had a far larger effect on the Horus Heresy. Ironically, these characters will be more memorable then Grammaticus and Hawser; a photo taken by Keeler gets an upcoming Eisenhorn short dedicated to it while these two will probably never get mentioned again.

 

I know, but Oliton and the rest were able to sit down and talk to high ranking members of the legions they were remembering (remembrancing?). The Space Wolves had no remembrancers and Hawsers back story is about the collection of knowledge, his meeting with a Thousand Son and his friends daemonic possession, all of which tie in with the Space Wolves/Thousand Sons conflict and that he was a thousand son spy.

 

I have agreed that perhaps too much of the book is given over to him, but due to the nature of the legion otherwise regarded as beer fuelled space vikings, his role had to be fairly prominent to pull away from that stereotype.

[tiberium40k]

I know, but Oliton and the rest were able to sit down and talk to high ranking members of the legions they were remembering (remembrancing?). The Space Wolves had no remembrancers

 

The point is that while they were able to sit down and talk to Luna Wolves, we had Loken`s insight as well. We also had numerous Luna Wolves/Sons of Horus characters contributing to the story. In PB, the Space Wolves are just the dudes Kasper happens to be with.

 

and Hawsers back story is about the collection of knowledge, his meeting with a Thousand Son and his friends daemonic possession, all of which tie in with the Space Wolves/Thousand Sons conflict and that he was a thousand son spy

 

Kaper`s contribution to the Space Wolf/Thousand Sons conflict is irrelevant! They had a feud long bofore he came along. Indeed, you could throw him out alltogether and it wouldnt change a thing! Would Prospero burn if he wasnt a spy? Yes. Would the Emperor rule against the use of psyker powers in the Legions without that firefight? Yes again. His story added nothing to the Heresy whatsoever.

 

I admit the intrigue around the archeology on Terra is a good story, but it would be far better placed in the upcoming anthology of short stories, not here.

 

I have agreed that perhaps too much of the book is given over to him, but due to the nature of the legion otherwise regarded as beer fuelled space vikings, his role had to be fairly prominent to pull away from that stereotype.

 

An equally well written Space Wolf could have done the same. If he wanted to, Dan could have achieved just that.

[Morollan]

Whilst I agree that the title of the book is a little misleading, the content was very well written, in my humble opinion. I appreciate that to some, there weren't enough explosions or primarchs but that stuff gets very old, very quick. You need the human perspective and I think the character of Hawser achieved what Abnett set out to do perfectly. As someone who has never liked the Space Wolves I found myself enjoying the book and emphasising with them, which tells me that it was a good book.

[obs0l3te]

I was be sarcastic in my previous post....

 

and Hawser wasn't a thousand sons spy.... he was some one elses spy....

 

Also i'm curious as to if what we saw through Hawsers eyes was really the truth.. I mean if Russ knew he was a spy... why let him in on things. And not just manipulate the situation.

 

The book was just a re-written version of Legion.

[Decoy]

I believe that quite a few people in this thread are missing the point of Prospero Burns entirely.

 

Like all fires, everything starts with a spark. In PB, we see that spark as it falls, knowing that the only thing that said spark could become is a raging inferno. However, we get the chance to watch as the spark of heresy and the death of the Thousand Sons falls; it slowly drifts from side to side, brushing against errant pieces of tinder as gravity works its deadly magic. Here and there, small embers flare, but no flame rises yet from this scion of inferno. The spark of death and flame continues along it's inevitable, inexorable path, guided by the hand of Destiny itself towards it's final resting place; there is only one thing for this glowing spark to do, only one thing that it -MUST- do.

 

The spark lands, and Prospero Burns allows us to slowly trace the path of inevitability; first a flicker and a fickle, fluttering flame, and as tinder timidly touches the tiny torch it bursts and burns and the fire expands, grows, feeds on the various characters of tinder and smaller woods around it. The fires of rebellion, sedition , distrust and politics take light and burn hot, spreading the flame further and further, wrapping each other in self-sustaining conflagurations; even as one bit of wood burns it ignites three more, and then another three, and another three, and in a time as long as it took for the spark to fall, the tinder is ashes and the wood is burning, and the fires burn high and bright and as all fires, those that burn brightest burn quickest; The long buildup is suddenly over, with naught left but the charred, glowing, noxious remains of what once was a proudly-standing wooden structure.

 

Moreover, PB is an examination not of just the fire, but of the various bits of tinder and wood as well; examined in depth in the Wolves, PB seeks to draw out the most combustible elements of the wood of the fire, looking at every bit, every flamable element, every hidden reservoir of burning gas or potential hotspot of conflagratory passion.

 

Prospero Burns is the tale of a fire, an all-consuming fire, starting from the very beginning; a spark. It is told not from the point of view of the spark, nor even truly from the wood, but rather by a camper observing the fire; he may be touched by embers and flame, but largely, the camper is unaffected in the macro scheme of things.

 

Ultimately, Prospero Burns is a thinker's book, one that does not rely on the cheap, cliche'd gimmicks of "MAIM KILL BURN" and "Oh, explosives, spaceships, yay!", but rather on the insight of the spirit, both human and superhuman.

[tiberium40k]

Whilst I agree that the title of the book is a little misleading, the content was very well written, in my humble opinion. I appreciate that to some, there weren't enough explosions or primarchs but that stuff gets very old, very quick. You need the human perspective and I think the character of Hawser achieved what Abnett set out to do perfectly. As someone who has never liked the Space Wolves I found myself enjoying the book and emphasising with them, which tells me that it was a good book.

 

Weather or not it has explosions is failry unimportant; what is important is its relevance and connection to the Heresy at large.

 

Take two films for example; Peral Harbour and Tora! Tora! Tora!.

 

Both claim to be about the Japanese assault, but one is about a love triangle utterly unimportant to the event (and much of the film is given over to stuff that simply dont contribute to the theme of the film); and the other is a historicaly accurate film depicting one of the most important events in WWII.

 

Dan said he would give us Tora! Tora! Tora!, but he gave us a non-vomit inducing Peral Harbour instead.

[Morollan]

Your own expectations from the book are not necessarily what was promised by the author. I don't recall Abnett telling us exactly what the book would be like, although I may well have missed something in the past as the book was delayed for a long time due to his illness.

 

At the end of the day, the fact that you didn't like the way he told the story does not alter the relevance of the book to the heresy at large. There is a connection, there is a relevance. All you can really argue about is whether you enjoyed it. You didn't like Legion and you didn't like Prospero Burns. I liked both. One man's meat etc...

[Cactus]

This defeats the entire purpose of the Horus Heresy novels as I mentioned in my earlier post. We are buying these as readers to finally learn the real secrets and truths of what happened and what these Legions were. By giving us books like Legion and Prospero Burns we are learning almost nothing we did not know before and are given flippant throw away characters that absolutely no one cares about or has any attachment with. You already know on the first page any human is long dead by now. You are reading it to get details on the Alpha Legion and to finally learn about them and their mysterious Primarch. Instead you get a novel that is 90% about a character you don't give a flying pop tart about and only tidbits of anything substantial. The same holds true with Prospero Burns albeit not to that degree. At least here we learn some more of Space Wolf culture.

I have to point out that this is not true for all readers. I don't expect everybody to enjoy the same books, or to read them for the same reasons, but if you think that the Horus Heresy is only about the Legiones Astartes and that the rest of humanity doesn't matter in these events you're really missing out on a lot.

 

That said, I do agree with the main thrust of the criticisms: the early parts were too disjointed for too long, the 'big reveal' was neither very big nor very revealing and the marketing was poor. I do wonder if the title and blurb were based on the original brief and that Dan changed things extensively as he got into it, but nobody thought to update these. :unsure: