What did Prospero Burns Contribute?

[Chowda]

At the end of the day, the fact that you didn't like the way he told the story does not alter the relevance of the book to the heresy at large.

Which was what? Chaos was working everywhere to manipulate Horus and some legions to their side? You could have fit the things "revealed" about the Space Wolves in a nicely-written short story. I used quotes because I've only read about twenty 40K books and very little was news to me and nothing stood out as things that weren't already known or assumed.

[Ein Windir]

I believe that quite a few people in this thread are missing the point of Prospero Burns entirely.

 

Like all fires, everything starts with a spark. In PB, we see that spark as it falls, knowing that the only thing that said spark could become is a raging inferno. However, we get the chance to watch as the spark of heresy and the death of the Thousand Sons falls; it slowly drifts from side to side, brushing against errant pieces of tinder as gravity works its deadly magic. Here and there, small embers flare, but no flame rises yet from this scion of inferno. The spark of death and flame continues along it's inevitable, inexorable path, guided by the hand of Destiny itself towards it's final resting place; there is only one thing for this glowing spark to do, only one thing that it -MUST- do.

 

The spark lands, and Prospero Burns allows us to slowly trace the path of inevitability; first a flicker and a fickle, fluttering flame, and as tinder timidly touches the tiny torch it bursts and burns and the fire expands, grows, feeds on the various characters of tinder and smaller woods around it. The fires of rebellion, sedition , distrust and politics take light and burn hot, spreading the flame further and further, wrapping each other in self-sustaining conflagurations; even as one bit of wood burns it ignites three more, and then another three, and another three, and in a time as long as it took for the spark to fall, the tinder is ashes and the wood is burning, and the fires burn high and bright and as all fires, those that burn brightest burn quickest; The long buildup is suddenly over, with naught left but the charred, glowing, noxious remains of what once was a proudly-standing wooden structure.

 

Moreover, PB is an examination not of just the fire, but of the various bits of tinder and wood as well; examined in depth in the Wolves, PB seeks to draw out the most combustible elements of the wood of the fire, looking at every bit, every flamable element, every hidden reservoir of burning gas or potential hotspot of conflagratory passion.

 

Prospero Burns is the tale of a fire, an all-consuming fire, starting from the very beginning; a spark. It is told not from the point of view of the spark, nor even truly from the wood, but rather by a camper observing the fire; he may be touched by embers and flame, but largely, the camper is unaffected in the macro scheme of things.

 

Ultimately, Prospero Burns is a thinker's book, one that does not rely on the cheap, cliche'd gimmicks of "MAIM KILL BURN" and "Oh, explosives, spaceships, yay!", but rather on the insight of the spirit, both human and superhuman.

 

Wow... That's the best summary I have heard for this book. That to me, makes so much sense of the events in PB.

[Piousservant]

I believe that quite a few people in this thread are missing the point of Prospero Burns entirely.

 

Like all fires, everything starts with a spark. In PB, we see that spark as it falls, knowing that the only thing that said spark could become is a raging inferno. However, we get the chance to watch as the spark of heresy and the death of the Thousand Sons falls; it slowly drifts from side to side, brushing against errant pieces of tinder as gravity works its deadly magic. Here and there, small embers flare, but no flame rises yet from this scion of inferno. The spark of death and flame continues along it's inevitable, inexorable path, guided by the hand of Destiny itself towards it's final resting place; there is only one thing for this glowing spark to do, only one thing that it -MUST- do.

 

The spark lands, and Prospero Burns allows us to slowly trace the path of inevitability; first a flicker and a fickle, fluttering flame, and as tinder timidly touches the tiny torch it bursts and burns and the fire expands, grows, feeds on the various characters of tinder and smaller woods around it. The fires of rebellion, sedition , distrust and politics take light and burn hot, spreading the flame further and further, wrapping each other in self-sustaining conflagurations; even as one bit of wood burns it ignites three more, and then another three, and another three, and in a time as long as it took for the spark to fall, the tinder is ashes and the wood is burning, and the fires burn high and bright and as all fires, those that burn brightest burn quickest; The long buildup is suddenly over, with naught left but the charred, glowing, noxious remains of what once was a proudly-standing wooden structure.

 

Moreover, PB is an examination not of just the fire, but of the various bits of tinder and wood as well; examined in depth in the Wolves, PB seeks to draw out the most combustible elements of the wood of the fire, looking at every bit, every flamable element, every hidden reservoir of burning gas or potential hotspot of conflagratory passion.

 

Prospero Burns is the tale of a fire, an all-consuming fire, starting from the very beginning; a spark. It is told not from the point of view of the spark, nor even truly from the wood, but rather by a camper observing the fire; he may be touched by embers and flame, but largely, the camper is unaffected in the macro scheme of things.

 

Ultimately, Prospero Burns is a thinker's book, one that does not rely on the cheap, cliche'd gimmicks of "MAIM KILL BURN" and "Oh, explosives, spaceships, yay!", but rather on the insight of the spirit, both human and superhuman.

 

 

So that's just a rather long-winded and pretentious way of deriding all criticism of PB as "me wants bolter porn!11!!!"...? In fact, one could suggest that it does have a lot in common with PB, a long post that though well-written, doesn't actually have any real content, though that's maybe a little unfair to PB.

 

It's not Hawser that I have a problem with, that much (Incidentally, I liked Legion, alot). My problems with Prospero Burns are firstly how wildly inaccurate the title is, that the first part was muddled and far too long and that the "big revelations" were neither - except for the nonsensical retcons about the Lost Legions and how totally awesome the Wolves are.

 

Ultimately, reviewed in a vaccum I'd be a lot more positive about it I think, it's the rather odd fact that the impact the book has on the series (none) is not what was advertised and the impact it has on the Wolves background (big)* is mostly jarring retcons, that I hold against it.

 

 

 

*Edit: Not that I dislike the move away from the beer-quaffing space vikings portrayal, when building SW armies I've never gone with that approach myself either.

[Razhbad]

My main concern with Prospero Burns was not content, thought i felt that was poor. After all i cared little for the plot of the story and had expected more with this being a Space Wolf book.

 

Of course that was not my main beef, i could have forgiven the plot the lack of space wolf stuff, all of it if it had been written well. This was not the case, it flowed badley, it often had poor dialogue and extremely poor character building except on the main character. It was just plain bad, which really shocked me thinking of who wrote it Dan Abnett is the greatest 40K writer and yet i find it hard to believe he wrote this book. I mean the last few pages of the book constantly repeat almost like its a cut and paste job. Sorry to say that i consider this to be the poorest Dan Abnett book and perhaps the poorest HH.

[Captain Tezdal]

*Edit: Not that I dislike the move away from the beer-quaffing space vikings portrayal, when building SW armies I've never gone with that approach myself either.

 

Now they are Jet fuel quaffing Uber-vikings hitmen, that's what I got from the book anyway.

[snorkle]

i consider this to be the poorest Dan Abnett book and perhaps the poorest HH.

 

Have you read the Dark Angels books :fakenopic:

[Jarl Kjaran Coldheart]

i consider this to be the poorest Dan Abnett book and perhaps the poorest HH.

 

Have you read the Dark Angels books :fakenopic:

 

or Battle for the Abyss?

 

WLK

[Razhbad]

i consider this to be the poorest Dan Abnett book and perhaps the poorest HH.

 

Have you read the Dark Angels books ^_^

 

or Battle for the Abyss?

 

WLK

 

I actually liked Fallen Angels (one of my favourates) but yes i would consider Descent of Angels and Battle for the Abyss to either be on the same level or slighlty lower then Prospero Burns

[Grimtooth]

I continue to get the impression from the various critics of Prospero Burns that "Space Wolves 2: Electric Booga-loo" would have been the only acceptable type of book to satisfy them complete with Michael Bay grimdark explosions on every page.

 

This is my quote from another thread regarding Kasper;

 

As for the claims of Kasper being the focal point, many of you are wrong. Kasper is only fleshed out enough to make him the effective literary mechanic used to introduce you to the VI Legion, learn about the VI Legion, become part of the VI Legion, and even die as part of the VI Legion.

 

Nothing was revealed or brought into the book about Kasper that was not in direct relation to his role with the VI Legion. From his childhood fear of wolves to the revelation of his orchestrated life by the Thousand Sons, it all tied into the revelations of the Legion and the eventual demise of Prospero.

 

I for one am glad that Prospero Burns was a thinking man's book versus a rock'em, sock'em, robots book.

[Chowda]

I continue to get the impression from the various critics of Prospero Burns that "Space Wolves 2: Electric Booga-loo" would have been the only acceptable type of book to satisfy them complete with Michael Bay grimdark explosions on every page.

Sure, insult those who thought this was a poor contribution to the HH series as simpletons. :P

 

Personally, I don't like reading the actual action sequences. It's the tension leading up to altercations with important ramifications, and the aftermath of those battles is what hooked me on the HH series. There was very little of that in Prospero Burns.

[Grimtooth]

I continue to get the impression from the various critics of Prospero Burns that "Space Wolves 2: Electric Booga-loo" would have been the only acceptable type of book to satisfy them complete with Michael Bay grimdark explosions on every page.

Sure, insult those who thought this was a poor contribution to the HH series as simpletons.

 

Personally, I don't like reading the actual action sequences. It's the tension leading up to altercations with important ramifications, and the aftermath of those battles is what hooked me on the HH series. There was very little of that in Prospero Burns.

 

I am not trying to insult anyone.

 

Having followed almost every single Prospero Burns thread posted up here since before the book was ever released the common vibe has been apparent.

 

Before the book was out, most of the speculation was on which Space Wolve character the stroy was going to be told from. Bjorn, Russ, Wyrndrake, Skarl, etc, etc. That the book did not go first person POV from a Space Wolf has now arisen as being one of the chief complaints. I have mentioned this in another thread; that has already been done. We had the first person POV from the Ragbnar series and from A Thousand Sons.

 

People are complaining about the pace of the book. That it was too slow ans that there was not enough action which does indeed translate to what I call the Michael Bay Syndrome. You can't carry a book that is only full of battles, blood, and explosions. That is the tool of weak writers and only appeals to a minority of an audience. Without the meat and potatoes of a story, flavored with the above spices, you have just a spicy wreck of a meal, ie, no substance.

 

I question how many people actually followed what Abnett said about this book prior to the release.

[Zynk Kaladin]

People are complaining about the pace of the book. That it was too slow ans that there was not enough action which does indeed translate to what I call the Michael Bay Syndrome. You can't carry a book that is only full of battles, blood, and explosions. That is the tool of weak writers and only appeals to a minority of an audience. Without the meat and potatoes of a story, flavored with the above spices, you have just a spicy wreck of a meal, ie, no substance.

 

While I agree the "meat and potatoes" part of any story is very important, a novel without "spice" is pretty bland and what I like to call One Giant Talking Session. Now I haven't read PB yet so I can not comment on it specifically. However, I've noticed the more recent HH novels have the characters barking at each other for longer than I care to read about. It goes back to the argument where people get bored of explosions if they've seen them a lot. The same goes for dialogue, imo. I've been fed freakin meat and potatoes for too long now (though I love meat and potatoes in reality) that some spice would go a long way to improve the quality of the meal. Hell, I've stopped going to this restaurant because that's all they serve now.

 

Actual battle scenes show a unique view of story and if written correctly (with proper "explosions" to keep it spicy), can make a pretty darn good story. Conflict is a very big theme in WH40K that people like me enjoy to hear tales of. Now I'm not advocating explosions on every page which would also get pretty boring, but I think people who advocate more (or perhaps better) fight scenes just want a balance between well written talky talky and well written killy killy. I would think people who want this balance are actually a majority.

[Grimtooth]

The battles in Prospero Burns serve a purpose other then to just put battles in a book which some people feel they should only be used. By your post, you seem like you will understand why the battles were presented and learn from them as what it appears Abnett was trying to do for the reader.

[Razhbad]

The thing is this is a Horus Heresy book a tale about the greatest war humanity fights. It is about one of the major battles fought in that war. It is about the Emperor's most Savage Legion a legion we are told that will quite easily rip apart anyone on orders.

 

Now though i do not want a book to suffer from Michael Bay syndrome nor would i want to read a book with all the qualities above to have barely any fight involved at all. Its not that people want more action its that fans could not believe how little the book had, now this is very uniquely written in many ways but when it comes to character driven, fast flowing war stories that the HH are this does not fill the category.

[Decoy]

While I agree the "meat and potatoes" part of any story is very important, a novel without "spice" is pretty bland and what I like to call One Giant Talking Session. Now I haven't read PB yet so I can not comment on it specifically. However, I've noticed the more recent HH novels have the characters barking at each other for longer than I care to read about. It goes back to the argument where people get bored of explosions if they've seen them a lot. The same goes for dialogue, imo. I've been fed freakin meat and potatoes for too long now (though I love meat and potatoes in reality) that some spice would go a long way to improve the quality of the meal. Hell, I've stopped going to this restaurant because that's all they serve now.

 

Actual battle scenes show a unique view of story and if written correctly (with proper "explosions" to keep it spicy), can make a pretty darn good story. Conflict is a very big theme in WH40K that people like me enjoy to hear tales of. Now I'm not advocating explosions on every page which would also get pretty boring, but I think people who advocate more (or perhaps better) fight scenes just want a balance between well written talky talky and well written killy killy. I would think people who want this balance are actually a majority.

 

 

I had quite a long response typed up, but realized that it was largely irrelevant given the content of your quote. :D

 

Anyways, you're right that in a universe where warfare is the galactic constant, there should be at least some balance between warfare and exposition. However, I think what people are failing to realize is that even during the Heresy, there was a -lot- of downtime. There is a huge amount of time spent not fighting, far more than there is spent fighting, in the 40K universe. Yes, "In the... future, there is only war", but there is a crapton of blank, unexciting space in said war. Like all wars, every conflict has it's beginning, middle and end. Prospero Burns is largely a tale of the "Beginning", with only mild focus on the middle and end. This, I think, is telling of both the writer, and those who seek to criticize him.

 

The beginnings of tales are hardly ever the most exciting parts. For instance, I sincerely doubt that many people could tell me much of anything on the Eastern Front during World War One, simply because it was relatively unremarkable (except, perhaps, the rout of the Russians at Tannenberg.) However, that single failing moment defined the entire rest of the war for the entire Eastern front, paving the way for great gains (and losses). What people seem to fail to remember is that for every story of great accomplishment or conflict (Prospero, in this case), there is as much of a story about what -caused- that conflict. We, as readers, already know that Prospero fell and that the Thousand Sons were routed. Yes, there may be a few people who wish to see what happened during the battle (myself included) but especially in a case like this, what came before is far more important, and really needed to be discussed. The "spice" of the killy-killy bits would only take away from the exposition of the story, and under no circumstances should the "killy killy" parts overshadow the exposition in any well-written story. Thankfully, PB avoided that pitfall, delivering a quality fluff expansion to the Wolves and giving readers a better insight into the inner workings of not only the Wolves, but interactions between factions in the 40K universe as well.

 

Ironically, I've found PB to be one of the better Horus Heresy novels, if only because it does what so many people condemn it for; avoiding the bolter-porn issue. I can most accurately portray the respective books by offering up a comparative analogy. The Horus Heresy series as a whole is largely akin to playing Tekken: Cheap, violent, fun, but with very little plot or critical thought. P.B. is more like playing Final Fantasy, where the fighting is largely a secondary thing, only used for leveling up and to progress the story, with the story being the main hook.

 

Going back to your quoted selection... I agree that a balance needs to be struck to maintain a solid base. However, that balance is most definitely not a 1:1 ratio, or even 1:3. Conflicts should serve to drive the narrative, not support the book.

 

Relating to your meat and potatoes statement... Both meat and potatoes require very little spice if the base materials are quality. In the case of P.B., the material is quality, and so it simply doesn't need much spice.

 

ON EDIT:

 

Deleted, because it contributed nothing to the conversation and only served as something of an insult.

[Marshal Rohr]

I would gladly read a book that deals with the culture of a chapter over battles any day.

[Dinks]

I would gladly read a book that deals with the culture of a chapter over battles any day.

Depends if it is written well.

[Marshal Rohr]

Prospero Burns was.

[Dinks]

If you say so. :)

[Grimtooth]

While I agree the "meat and potatoes" part of any story is very important, a novel without "spice" is pretty bland and what I like to call One Giant Talking Session. Now I haven't read PB yet so I can not comment on it specifically. However, I've noticed the more recent HH novels have the characters barking at each other for longer than I care to read about. It goes back to the argument where people get bored of explosions if they've seen them a lot. The same goes for dialogue, imo. I've been fed freakin meat and potatoes for too long now (though I love meat and potatoes in reality) that some spice would go a long way to improve the quality of the meal. Hell, I've stopped going to this restaurant because that's all they serve now.

 

Actual battle scenes show a unique view of story and if written correctly (with proper "explosions" to keep it spicy), can make a pretty darn good story. Conflict is a very big theme in WH40K that people like me enjoy to hear tales of. Now I'm not advocating explosions on every page which would also get pretty boring, but I think people who advocate more (or perhaps better) fight scenes just want a balance between well written talky talky and well written killy killy. I would think people who want this balance are actually a majority.

 

 

I had quite a long response typed up, but realized that it was largely irrelevant given the content of your quote. :)

 

Anyways, you're right that in a universe where warfare is the galactic constant, there should be at least some balance between warfare and exposition. However, I think what people are failing to realize is that even during the Heresy, there was a -lot- of downtime. There is a huge amount of time spent not fighting, far more than there is spent fighting, in the 40K universe. Yes, "In the... future, there is only war", but there is a crapton of blank, unexciting space in said war. Like all wars, every conflict has it's beginning, middle and end. Prospero Burns is largely a tale of the "Beginning", with only mild focus on the middle and end. This, I think, is telling of both the writer, and those who seek to criticize him.

 

The beginnings of tales are hardly ever the most exciting parts. For instance, I sincerely doubt that many people could tell me much of anything on the Eastern Front during World War One, simply because it was relatively unremarkable (except, perhaps, the rout of the Russians at Tannenberg.) However, that single failing moment defined the entire rest of the war for the entire Eastern front, paving the way for great gains (and losses). What people seem to fail to remember is that for every story of great accomplishment or conflict (Prospero, in this case), there is as much of a story about what -caused- that conflict. We, as readers, already know that Prospero fell and that the Thousand Sons were routed. Yes, there may be a few people who wish to see what happened during the battle (myself included) but especially in a case like this, what came before is far more important, and really needed to be discussed. The "spice" of the killy-killy bits would only take away from the exposition of the story, and under no circumstances should the "killy killy" parts overshadow the exposition in any well-written story. Thankfully, PB avoided that pitfall, delivering a quality fluff expansion to the Wolves and giving readers a better insight into the inner workings of not only the Wolves, but interactions between factions in the 40K universe as well.

 

Ironically, I've found PB to be one of the better Horus Heresy novels, if only because it does what so many people condemn it for; avoiding the bolter-porn issue. I can most accurately portray the respective books by offering up a comparative analogy. The Horus Heresy series as a whole is largely akin to playing Tekken: Cheap, violent, fun, but with very little plot or critical thought. P.B. is more like playing Final Fantasy, where the fighting is largely a secondary thing, only used for leveling up and to progress the story, with the story being the main hook.

 

Going back to your quoted selection... I agree that a balance needs to be struck to maintain a solid base. However, that balance is most definitely not a 1:1 ratio, or even 1:3. Conflicts should serve to drive the narrative, not support the book.

 

Relating to your meat and potatoes statement... Both meat and potatoes require very little spice if the base materials are quality. In the case of P.B., the material is quality, and so it simply doesn't need much spice.

 

ON EDIT:

 

Deleted, because it contributed nothing to the conversation and only served as something of an insult.

 

Well put Decoy.

 

I tend to go off a bit when the lack of action in Prospero Burns is brought up as a complaint because it shows a lack of appreciation for what was presented by the book.

 

As many people point out that Prospero Burns did not have enough of Prospero Burning, it was balanced out with more then enough of why Prospero Burned. That they only craved seeing the battle recreated from a different POV kind of insults me....LOL!

 

To each their own I guess.

[Decoy]

If you say so. :)

 

We do. :(

[Paradill]

Okay, so I've read the majority of posts in this thread now and I can see that there are two distinct camps, mainly the "Prospero Burns sucks" camp and the "Prospero Burns is awesome" camp. I am in the latter, but I empathise with the former. With a title like 'Prospero Burns' we are expecting a recount of the apocalyptic battle that was the assault on Prospero, the first time a legion homeworld had been condemned to orbital assault. As a result I feel people were disappointed by what they got, the evocative title and awe inspiring cover art bring to mind the sort of battle theme that simply was not in the book.

 

But let's look at what we did get in Prospero Burns and why I love it. The Space Wolves have, for the majority of time, been portrayed as gun toting viking from space. This isn't a completely unfair description given that battles are where we see the space wolves in action, but PB lets us see beyond that in some surprisingly good ways. Kaspar Hawser is an outsider, an old man on his final voyage for glory, in the twilight of his life he sets course for the end. He is brought to Fenris by an unknown compulsion and gets shot out of the sky only to waste time with savages as he lays broken on the ice, but then he is awakened.

 

When Kaspar wakes up in the fang he is born again, he is a child amongst savage gods and he has to learn everything from scratch. His perspective as an outsider becoming part of the legion gives us an insight into the Space Wolves on an intimate level, what they do when they aren't fighting, what they drink and eat, how deep rooted and spiritual their traditions are, how important their own culture is to them. This is something we haven't really seen before, most of the outsider opinions are from other legions who consider them feral or worse and to follow Kaspar on his journey and become a Skjarl gives us what was missing.

 

Kaspars journey itself, is a well thought out and positively spine tingling tale, littered with symbolism and significance in every syllable. He starts out completely on the outside, looking in and falls through the window. He becomes part of the very fabric of the story and through his eyes we see our dreams, to become one with these noble savages, culminating in the final pages where he calls the space wolves "brothers". Without the outsiders perspective, what are we to know about the legion? They love to fight and drink? We all ready knew that, it's the drive of brotherhood and life that we hadn't even touched on.

 

This is not a book for those who wanted a battle til the end, though not all it's detractors are such people, and it is certainly not a book for those who take things on face value, for Kaspar is anything but two dimensional. It is a book for those who wanted something more, those who wanted to know there is more than the fight, more than the action, it is for those who wanted the reasons. There are no great revelations and no great continuation into what awaits beyond the book, it is what it is, in all it's magnificence. As for those who say it wasn't well written, tell me, honestly, that you weren't either devouring each word with the hunger of a ripper swarm or skipping Kaspar's memories so as to continue your journey with the wolves. That is not the sign of poor writing, that's the sign of a great story, well told and filled to the brim with controversy as to the perspective.

 

If you have read this far I applaud you and reward you with a sentence of thanks.

 

Refute/debate/ignore.

 

Paradill

[Grimtooth]

Kasper's inclusion and journey is only to really introduce you to the VI Legion, become part of the VI Legion, fight with the VI Legion, and eventually die with the VI Legion.

 

As many people complain that Kasper was the main character of Prospero Burns, they miss the point completely that it is the VI Legion in its entirety is the main character of Prospero Burns. All we learn about Kasper is related directly to the VI Legion and in the end we end up really learning about the Legion and barely even knowing Kasper.

 

I stand by my statement that Kasper was an ingenious literary device used to bring us into the worlf of the VI Legion.

[Paradill]

Kasper's inclusion and journey is only to really introduce you to the VI Legion, become part of the VI Legion, fight with the VI Legion, and eventually die with the VI Legion.

 

As many people complain that Kasper was the main character of Prospero Burns, they miss the point completely that it is the VI Legion in its entirety is the main character of Prospero Burns. All we learn about Kasper is related directly to the VI Legion and in the end we end up really learning about the Legion and barely even knowing Kasper

.

 

 

That's exactly my point, Kaspar is the VI. We become him and through his life and his eyes we become the wolves of Fenris.

 

 

I stand by my statement that Kasper was an ingenious literary device used to bring us into the worlf of the VI Legion.

 

Please tell me that's intentional because I love it.

 

Paradill

[Captain Tezdal]

If you say so. :)

 

We do. ;)

 

Well...not all of us.