IA: Steel Wardens

[Blacklight]

It is not matter of Administratum. You have this book, which is telling you what is and what not worked throught the millenia of Eternal War and you are like "Nah, nah! I know better than these guys. We will use this organisation/tactic/doctrines, because I think it is going to work. Althought I got this idea just yesterday."

 

Agreed.

 

It is heresy to question the validity of the Codex Astartes.

 

Not as far as I'm aware it's not, though that doesn't mean it's a wise decision by a long shot.

 

I don't think so. It's basically the exact same thing as the current day Bible. Christians view the Bible as holy, but Muslims do not. Muslims view the Koran as holy, but Christians do not. It's a matter of viewpoint. The Ultramarines might view the Codex Astartes as a holy book, but other chapters might only see it as a good tactical doctrine and others still might not even care.

 

No, you're confusing the Codex Astartes with the limitations imposed on the organization of Space Marine armies presented in Codex: Space Marines for the tabletop game.

 

You can't compare the Codex Astartes to the Koran or Bible because they aren't living documents. It's not so much a big damn book as it is a library of historical warfare, strategic treatises, tactical anecdotes from commanders and soldiers from across the history of the Imperium and maybe even before, depending on how far back Guilliman delved.

 

They view it as a holy book because of the backward religious ritualism that the entire Imperium is steeped in within the 40k universe, this is not malleable.

 

Chapters that don't follow the Codex include Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and the Iron Hands.

 

The chapters you've listed are all first founding chapters who have been around as long as the Ultramarines and at this stage in history, there is nothing in the codex they wouldn't have encountered, no intelligent reason they wouldn't have copies of it themselves to reference regardless of the application of it's organizational strictures or not. I'd venture they don't disregard the book at all, even if they don't do exactly as it says you 'should' do. To do so would border on the territory of being undergarment-on-bonce-backward.

 

The comparison is as NightwaranII stated above, but I'll give one of my own as well.

 

Lets say you've just graduated from Basic Training in the Army and are about to go on to Officer Training. You are handed a copy of Sun Tsu's The Art of War and are told that it contains many lessons and examples of how you should organize the forces available to you and is an invaluable resource. He may be a raving lunatic by the fact that his clothes are made up from the cover and front page of dozens of copies of the book, his fervent belief in the book as an almost holy relic in his mind does not divorce the fact that he is right, that it is an invaluable resource.

 

The Art of War (yes I have read it) contains many, many lessons and philosophies that are still in use today because they are timeless in their application. What commander in his right mind would simply throw it out because he was being defeated on the battlefield?

 

Could you associate deification of individuals like Alexander the Great or Sun Tsu because so many people rave on and on about their skill and insight into the nature of warfare? Probably, but that doesn't invalidate their work just because it's taken on a different aspect with a certain group of individuals.

 

There are gray areas here too. Not every commander is smart or cunning enough to use what's given to him properly, you take an anecdote too literally and you can make a total shambles of an easy operation. Likewise if you play too fast and loose with a set of guidelines there to help you, much the same thing can result.

 

 

 

To me it's not so much whether you follow the organization as laid down in the Codex as rigidly as the Ultramarines (even though it's meant to be a flexible deployment and when dealing with special forces and even the military in general, flexibility is key), to dump the entire 'book' is throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

I agree with you on almost all points. I never meant to say that the Wardens would completely throw out the Codex - my apologies if it seemed that way, I might have to go through and rewrite it to clarify. I just meant that they redistributed their forces from the 10 companies the Codex states into 5 crusade forces of 200 marines (ish) each. My thinking being that they want to have a heavier punch when they attack without having to coordinate between more than one company. It's also just a preference of mine, as I said. I like having equal strength forces just because of my IRL OCD and penchant for symmetry.

 

The Wardens most assuredly study the Codex for its tactical doctrines and all of the other useful information it contains. The only huge deviations are in its structuring, and even then its only the change from 10 companies to 5 crusades. There's still a chapter master, chaplains, etc., so its not as if they're completely rewriting the book.

[Ezekial Gravestone]

the codex is veiwed as a set of suggestions, remember there are codex chapters and noncodex chapters, and he is focusing on the fact that his chapter was hit by a new and unknown enemie of man, hell i wouldnt be suprised if they became seen as radicals for this, but while other chapters would avoid them, and adeuptus would wary they still fight all the known enemies, they just seem to jump at shadows, there geneseed be checked for mutation, and there minds for sanity but they arnt insane, they wouldnt be seen as heritics, only the ultramarines and there successors would be offended by there ignoreing of the codex

[Blacklight]

the codex is veiwed as a set of suggestions, remember there are codex chapters and noncodex chapters, and he is focusing on the fact that his chapter was hit by a new and unknown enemie of man, hell i wouldnt be suprised if they became seen as radicals for this, but while other chapters would avoid them, and adeuptus would wary they still fight all the known enemies, they just seem to jump at shadows, there geneseed be checked for mutation, and there minds for sanity but they arnt insane, they wouldnt be seen as heritics, only the ultramarines and there successors would be offended by there ignoreing of the codex

 

The jumping at shadows aspect is what I implied by the Inquisition regarding them with suspicion. They're checked for corruption and mutation more often, but they aren't crazy nor are they corrupted. The Imperium simply doesn't recognize the Necrons as a real threat, or grouped them under Chaos and continued business as usual. That was my assumption as well; the Ultramarines are the only ones that really seem to 'worship' the Codex, because it was their Primarch. The others simply follow it to varying extents.

[NightrawenII]

I don't think so. It's basically the exact same thing as the current day Bible. Christians view the Bible as holy, but Muslims do not. Muslims view the Koran as holy, but Christians do not. It's a matter of viewpoint.

This argument is flawed. 1st, your Chapter is christian from the start. Second, there is no Talmud, Koran or Tora, there *is* only Bible. You can differ in some minor points, but you will be largely following the outline, because it's foolish to do otherwise.

 

The Ultramarines might view the Codex Astartes as a holy book, but other chapters might only see it as a good tactical doctrine and others still might not even care. The Space Wolves certainly don't, and neither do the Black Templars. The Wardens don't view the Codex as useless - it is chock full of sound tactical doctrine - but as for the organization and such, it is up to the chapter. Chapters that don't follow the Codex include Black Templars, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, and the Iron Hands.

Ehm, only the Space Wolves and Black Templars are *true* non-codex Chapters, the others are more or less codex Chapters.

 

They're constantly crusading against the Necrons, and as such need each 'wing' of their Crusade to be as strong as the other. To do so they spread their strength equally over five Crusades, with a small number from each one serving as the homeworld's guards for a time.

There is several mistakes in this argument, so let see:

#A You are the Chapter of Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines and your duty is fight any kind of enemy in any kind of environment or situation.

#B Crusade doesn't require change in the organisation nor each crusade needs to be equally strong. In fact, it's crippling your flexibility and adaptability on the battlefield. With addition of #A a certain no-go.

#C Your Chapter is homeworld-based, so the crusading is out of question. If the chapter has a homeworld, it means there is reason for them to be in this area.

#D Crusade against Necrons is logical fallacy. There is no proof that the *Necrons* you have encountered are galaxy-wide threat.

#E Avoiding your duties and pursuing your own agendas has its own limits, be wary of that.

 

And according to the definition of a chapter, there is no leader over the Chapter Master of a particular chapter.

No, there is Inquistion, High Lord of Terra and Masters of other Chapters. All of them have the right to intervene in your Chapter business, especially if you are doing something wrong.

 

The High Lords of Terra or the Emperor didn't write the Codex, so it's impossible to call it heresy.

Heh, :lol: :

The Codex Astartes further defines the tactical roles, equipment specifications and uniform identification markings of the Space Marines. These guidelines have evolved over the centuries, and the Codex Astartes of the forty first millennium is a highly developed treatise combining the wisdom of hundreds of military thinkers throughout history. Some of its contents seem petty and restrictive, hardly worthy of the great mind of the Primarch. Others describe actual battles together with comments on the tactics employed and the decisions of the commanders of the day. As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

 

I just meant that they redistributed their forces from the 10 companies the Codex states into 5 crusade forces of 200 marines (ish) each. My thinking being that they want to have a heavier punch when they attack without having to coordinate between more than one company. It's also just a preference of mine, as I said. I like having equal strength forces just because of my IRL OCD and penchant for symmetry.

 

The Wardens most assuredly study the Codex for its tactical doctrines and all of the other useful information it contains. The only huge deviations are in its structuring, and even then its only the change from 10 companies to 5 crusades. There's still a chapter master, chaplains, etc., so its not as if they're completely rewriting the book.

All of these reasons you have stated doesn't make any sense from the Military POV, and therefore doesn't matter. They are elite supersoldiers not artists.

[SpecialIssue]

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Key words there are many and recommendations. Meaning that some chapters do not place as much importance on it as others, and that it is not a book of rules to be followed.

 

I just meant that they redistributed their forces from the 10 companies the Codex states into 5 crusade forces of 200 marines (ish) each. My thinking being that they want to have a heavier punch when they attack without having to coordinate between more than one company. It's also just a preference of mine, as I said. I like having equal strength forces just because of my IRL OCD and penchant for symmetry.

 

The Wardens most assuredly study the Codex for its tactical doctrines and all of the other useful information it contains. The only huge deviations are in its structuring, and even then its only the change from 10 companies to 5 crusades. There's still a chapter master, chaplains, etc., so its not as if they're completely rewriting the book.

All of these reasons you have stated doesn't make any sense from the Military POV, and therefore doesn't matter. They are elite supersoldiers not artists.

Tell that to the BA... ^_^

Anyway, if it doesn't matter, then he is free to do it, right? Plus, how does his reasons of not conforming to standard organisation not make sense? If his chapter are going to be split up into seperate crusade fleets for extended periods of time, then it makes sense to me to streamline the command structure in each one of them for easier coordination...

[NightrawenII]

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Key words there are *is revered as a holy text* and *many*. Meaning that vast majority of Chapters holds the Codex in great esteem and that it is a book of rules to be followed.

Corrected for you. ^_^

 

Tell that to the BA... :P

Black Templars for sure? Otherwise Matt Ward lies to us even in such fundamental question. :mellow:

 

Anyway, if it doesn't matter, then he is free to do it, right? Plus, how does his reasons of not conforming to standard organisation not make sense? If his chapter are going to be split up into seperate crusade fleets for extended periods of time, then it makes sense to me to streamline the command structure in each one of them for easier coordination...

Because the "split into 5 separate Crusade fleets" doesn't make sense in the first place. ;)

[Telveryon]

And according to the definition of a chapter, there is no leader over the Chapter Master of a particular chapter.

No, there is Inquistion, High Lord of Terra and Masters of other Chapters. All of them have the right to intervene in your Chapter business, especially if you are doing something wrong.

Actually, you are wrong here. Only two things can order a Space Marine around, a higher ranked Space Marine of the same chapter or the Emperor. Other institutions can make request of a Chapter, which it isn't compelled to honor (though they mostly do). Codex: Space Marines states that Space Marines have as much, if not slightly more, freedom then then the Mechanicus, they are nigh on completely autonomous.

 

If a Chapter is doing something wrong, they usually get another Chapter to talk to the offender and only if they don't back down do the sanctions start.

 

EDIT:

 

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

Key words there are *is revered as a holy text* and *many*. Meaning that vast majority of Chapters holds the Codex in great esteem and that it is a book of rules to be followed.

Corrected for you. :P

But the Codex: Space Marines does state that there are some Chapter that view the Codex Astartes as more of a set of Guide Lines rather then a set in stone holy tome. It's true that the majority are adhere to it to the letter or very closely but there are exceptions. Claiming that he cannot have a chapter that does not follow the Codex Astartes to the letter is a falsity.

[Blacklight]

Tell that to the BA... :ph34r:

Anyway, if it doesn't matter, then he is free to do it, right? Plus, how does his reasons of not conforming to standard organisation not make sense? If his chapter are going to be split up into seperate crusade fleets for extended periods of time, then it makes sense to me to streamline the command structure in each one of them for easier coordination...

 

That was my thinking as well. Basically they have their five Crusades head out in opposite directions, kill what needs to be killed, and then return after a time to cycle their homeworld guard contingent and rearm. My thought was that if they were going to be going and crusading, why wouldn't they want to have more people at their disposal in case they need reinforcements? Instead of having 4 fighting companies and 4 reserve, they simply mixed them all together and distributed them out equally. No need to call for reinforcements, because you've got two standard companies worth of marines at your disposal right off. If they need reinforcements, another crusade can come to their aid. They're not crippling themselves in any way that I can see.

 

Because the "split into 5 separate Crusade fleets" doesn't make sense in the first place. :lol:

 

I fail to see how it doesn't make sense. 10 companies, mix them all together and split them equally into 5 parts. Instead of calling the 5 new units companies, they call them Crusades. Each Crusade goes off on its own to fight. They've got more than enough manpower to handle basically any situation, and because there are no reserve companies, they don't need to worry about calling for reinforcements or any of those shenanigans if they need more Devastators or Assault marines. They've already got them. If need be, they can call for another Crusade to come help, but more of then than not, 200 marines is plenty.

 

There is several mistakes in this argument, so let see:

#A You are the Chapter of Adeptus Astartes, the Space Marines and your duty is fight any kind of enemy in any kind of environment or situation.

#B Crusade doesn't require change in the organisation nor each crusade needs to be equally strong. In fact, it's crippling your flexibility and adaptability on the battlefield. With addition of #A a certain no-go.

#C Your Chapter is homeworld-based, so the crusading is out of question. If the chapter has a homeworld, it means there is reason for them to be in this area.

#D Crusade against Necrons is logical fallacy. There is no proof that the *Necrons* you have encountered are galaxy-wide threat.

#E Avoiding your duties and pursuing your own agendas has its own limits, be wary of that.

 

A: I didn't mean to imply they exclusively fight Necrons. They're their 'favored enemy', if you will, but they do still fight Chaos and Tau and Tyranids and Orks and whoever else they might run into while searching for Necrons.

B: No, it doesn't require it. I fully realize that. But I have to disagree on your saying that it cripples their flexibility. If you have a force that has every type of unit it could possibly need, how does that in any way hamper their flexibility? Instead of having the 2nd Company call to the 1st Company to say they need Terminators, the 1st Crusade would already have a number of Terminators in their unit. Instead of having to call one of the reserve companies for more Devastators for enhanced fire support, they've already been added. It cuts out an unnecessary link by skipping the whole reinforcement stage. If you already have your reinforcements, you don't have to vox for additional ones. And as I said, 200 marines is plenty. If need be they can combine with the other Crusades.

C: I fail to see how it's out of the question. They leave a contingent on their home world to defend relics there, train Initiates, and search for recruits. It's the home of their Necropolis, and base of their crusade. That's their reason for defending it. I don't understand why they can't crusade against an enemy and return to a planet once every so often to restock and cycle troops.

D: I can see your point here. My plan is, since they don't know what the Necrons are immediately, that they group the Necrons under the banner of Chaos, which they know are a galaxy wide threat already. Later on they find the Necrons are a separate entity.

E: As I said before, they're still fighting anything that needs to be fought - their crusade is one of vengeance against the creatures that killed 200 of their fellows. The Necrons are their favored enemies for that reason, but they will still aid Imperium worlds that need assistance or report the taint of Chaos.

 

No, there is Inquistion, High Lord of Terra and Masters of other Chapters. All of them have the right to intervene in your Chapter business, especially if you are doing something wrong.

 

As was said before, the Chapters are not under the command of the High Lords or the Inquisition. They can be sanctioned, but what they do is their prerogative. So long as it's not heretical or something like that and they aren't neglecting their duties as marines.

 

As such the Codex Astartes is revered as a holy text, and many Chapters regard its recommendations as sanctified by the Emperor himself.

 

And once again there's the many word. Not all. Granted they are a younger chapter, but as was said it does not say that all chapters revere it as if the Emperor wrote it. The Wardens are perfectly within rights to not follow it to the letter and change things to their liking. So long as they don't breach the 1,000 marine maximum and don't give the Inquisition or the Adeptus Mechanicus a reason to think they're mutating uncontrollably or becoming tainted. And as I said, the Wardens do study the tactical doctrines put forward in the Codex. Literally the only thing different is their reorganization, they still use tactical, devastator, and assault squads.

 

All of these reasons you have stated doesn't make any sense from the Military POV, and therefore doesn't matter. They are elite supersoldiers not artists.

 

I very much think they do make sense. If you're going to be behind enemy lines or cut off for extended periods, you want to bring everything with you. Hence the reorganization. They have twice the numbers of a normal company, in addition to having a number of Terminator veterans, devastators, assault marines, etc. Instead of getting in a pickle and realizing they need Termies or something and have to vox back to the homeworld to request backup, they already have the means to deal with the situation. Saying that doesn't make any sense doesn't make any sense. It's cutting out the middleman.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Actually, you are wrong here. Only two things can order a Space Marine around, a higher ranked Space Marine of the same chapter or the Emperor.

 

Technically, yeah that's true.

 

However, the threat of repercussions if not performing the request of a powerful individual within the Imperium. Inquisitors wield that power and so do the High Lords of Terra.

 

As long as whatever is being asked isn't terribly important or something that knowingly takes them away from a crisis point, which they would naturally be in, wouldn't garner that much backlash.

 

However, if there is a problem which has reached a critical point at which time an Inquisitor or even more critically, the High Lords themselves request the chapters aid and they refuse, it is definitely grounds for severe consequences.

 

Technical rank aside, having the power to declare a chapter Excommunicate Traitorus and/or punish them in other ways are not the sort of powers you go against 'just because'.

 

 

Now I'm not against being non-codex at all, just to be clear. I do however believe that it needs to make sense and be well justified.

 

It's cutting out the middleman.

 

What middle-man? Space Marines aren't a centralized organization. A single company usually consists of a flexible number of troops and troop types, along with some attached first company veterans. The captain determines the course of the company unless overriding orders are given from the Chapter Master, who does not sit at home in the chapter keep. In any case communications are too unreliable in the Imperium to have it work any other way.

 

Also, you don't vox across worlds, astropaths send messages across the warp, hence the unreliable nature of long range communication.

 

So long as they don't breach the 1,000 marine maximum

 

You (and everyone else for that matter) should read this: The Thousand Marine Myth.

[Blacklight]

Actually, you are wrong here. Only two things can order a Space Marine around, a higher ranked Space Marine of the same chapter or the Emperor.

 

Technically, yeah that's true.

 

However, the threat of repercussions if not performing the request of a powerful individual within the Imperium. Inquisitors wield that power and so do the High Lords of Terra.

 

As long as whatever is being asked isn't terribly important or something that knowingly takes them away from a crisis point, which they would naturally be in, wouldn't garner that much backlash.

 

However, if there is a problem which has reached a critical point at which time an Inquisitor or even more critically, the High Lords themselves request the chapters aid and they refuse, it is definitely grounds for severe consequences.

 

Technical rank aside, having the power to declare a chapter Excommunicate Traitorus and/or punish them in other ways are not the sort of powers you go against 'just because'.

 

 

Now I'm not against being non-codex at all, just to be clear. I do however believe that it needs to make sense and be well justified.

 

I agree. While they can't directly order them around they do have the power to sanction them. Sort of like the UN, I guess :lol:

In having them reorganize, I didn't mean to imply they would explicitly fight Necrons. Like I mentioned, they would be their favored enemy, but they wouldn't neglect their other duties.

 

What middle-man? Space Marines aren't a centralized organization. A single company usually consists of a flexible number of troops and troop types, along with some attached first company veterans. The captain determines the course of the company unless overriding orders are given from the Chapter Master, who does not sit at home in the chapter keep. In any case communications are too unreliable in the Imperium to have it work any other way.

 

Middle-man referring to possibly needing to reinforce a company while off on another world. If you have two companies worth of marines and a variety of weapons and tactics at your disposal, you don't need to worry about making a communication across the warp to reach the rest of the chapter and get reinforcements. I realize that the fighting companies already have this same sort of setup, but I just made it so that you mix in the reserve companies as well and spread the veterans across them. Fewer companies, more streamlined command, easier to manage. IMO.

 

Also, you don't vox across worlds, astropaths send messages across the warp, hence the unreliable nature of long range communication.

 

Heh, my bad :D

 

You (and everyone else for that matter) should read this: The Thousand Marine Myth.

 

I actually read that a couple of days ago - great read by the way. I just say 1,000 marines simply because it's the generalized number.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I realize that the fighting companies already have this same sort of setup, but I just made it so that you mix in the reserve companies as well and spread the veterans across them. Fewer companies, more streamlined command, easier to manage. IMO.

 

No that's fine and dandy, but still needs to be well justified.

 

For example, if your chapter has been raised with the codex in it's infancy, breaking from tradition here will likely be hard to do, something you haven't touched upon and something that could well cause unrest with the more conservative brethren in a chapter.

 

For the record, I've done a similar thing with my Blazing Sons, however I don't specifically state the size or disposition of the companies, I just declare that the nature of the chapter has lead them to mobilize and organize all companies as fully fledged battle companies, and have all the elements needed to make them as such.

 

This includes veterans, vehicles, scouts, serfs, you name it. This is explained as a part of their character, it is something that has lead from their stubborn, determined-beyond-reason attitude and works well (or so I think) as a result, though there are some areas I need to look at.

 

The point is don't just think of the chapter like something to be easily chopped and changed as needed. While it is flexible, it is still an organization of individuals with their own society and culture and should be treated as such in your IA.

[Blacklight]

Ah, I see what you mean now. I'm shooting to make it more of a gradual transition, not a sudden one. Once they lose to the Necrons, they declare their war against them and start trying to track them down. Over time they decide to reorganize into the 5 Crusade system so that they can cover more ground. Very short summary considering I haven't detailed that particular section yet, but you get the gist. Instead of having to make sure they balance each company before deployment, they merge them so that they can venture farther without having to worry about reinforcements and can deal with larger threats on their own.

 

Whether or not they've been raised with the Codex, I'm not sure yet. I don't know to what extent the Iron Hands follow it, and they were their training cadre. It would all depend on how the Iron Hands view the Codex. I don't plan to have the Wardens ever really worship the Codex or uphold it to the letter, but just use it as a tactical guide or a handbook.

[NightrawenII]

No, there is Inquistion, High Lords of Terra and Masters of other Chapters. All of them have the right to intervene in your Chapter business, especially if you are doing something wrong.

Actually, you are wrong here.

Actually no, I'm not. I said right to intervene, not order around. :P

 

But the Codex: Space Marines does state that there are some Chapter that view the Codex Astartes as more of a set of Guide Lines rather then a set in stone holy tome. It's true that the majority are adhere to it to the letter or very closely but there are exceptions. Claiming that he cannot have a chapter that does not follow the Codex Astartes to the letter is a falsity.

I'm not saying he cannot have a non-codex Chapter. What I'm trying to say here is that his total reordering is very very unlikely, because of the significance of Codex's teachings.

 

His explanation "Okey lads, because of this nasty enemy we fought yesterday lets toss this doctrines out of window." is illogical and unfeasible.

 

Because the "split into 5 separate Crusade fleets" doesn't make sense in the first place. :(

 

I fail to see how it doesn't make sense. 10 companies, mix them all together and split them equally into 5 parts. Instead of calling the 5 new units companies, they call them Crusades. Each Crusade goes off on its own to fight. They've got more than enough manpower to handle basically any situation, and because there are no reserve companies, they don't need to worry about calling for reinforcements or any of those shenanigans if they need more Devastators or Assault marines. They've already got them. If need be, they can call for another Crusade to come help, but more of then than not, 200 marines is plenty.

Another post full of logical fallancies:

#A Why are you sending these crusades in the first place? All other Chapters sent Battle Company + support and they seems to carry on well.

#B Why 5 of them? Why not 4, 6, 7 etc. etc.?

#C What if there is a situation, where you need to fight in >5 places at a time?

#D 200 Astartes in one formation is actually too much. It is overkill in the most cases.

 

A: I didn't mean to imply they exclusively fight Necrons. They're their 'favored enemy', if you will, but they do still fight Chaos and Tau and Tyranids and Orks and whoever else they might run into while searching for Necrons.

At this point non-existant.

 

B: No, it doesn't require it. I fully realize that.

Then the dreaded question is in the place: WHY?

 

But I have to disagree on your saying that it cripples their flexibility. If you have a force that has every type of unit it could possibly need, how does that in any way hamper their flexibility? Instead of having the 2nd Company call to the 1st Company to say they need Terminators, the 1st Crusade would already have a number of Terminators in their unit. Instead of having to call one of the reserve companies for more Devastators for enhanced fire support, they've already been added. It cuts out an unnecessary link by skipping the whole reinforcement stage. If you already have your reinforcements, you don't have to vox for additional ones. And as I said, 200 marines is plenty. If need be they can combine with the other Crusades.

See above. The 200 Astartes is overkill in most case and it's crippling your ability to lead the war in more than 5 places.

 

C: I fail to see how it's out of the question. They leave a contingent on their home world to defend relics there, train Initiates, and search for recruits. It's the home of their Necropolis, and base of their crusade. That's their reason for defending it. I don't understand why they can't crusade against an enemy and return to a planet once every so often to restock and cycle troops.

Crusades are roaming across entire Imperium. If the Chapter has homeworld, it means in most cases that the Chapter was assigned to defend this particular sector. Wandering abroad =/= defending you assigned sector.

 

I very much think they do make sense. If you're going to be behind enemy lines or cut off for extended periods, you want to bring everything with you. Hence the reorganization. They have twice the numbers of a normal company, in addition to having a number of Terminator veterans, devastators, assault marines, etc. Instead of getting in a pickle and realizing they need Termies or something and have to vox back to the homeworld to request backup, they already have the means to deal with the situation. Saying that doesn't make any sense doesn't make any sense. It's cutting out the middleman.

So in order to be ready for every situtation:

- You deny yourself any means of reinforcements.

- You are restricted to use the sledge-hammer even in situations when it is not required.

- You have no means to tailor your forces for more special situation.

[Blacklight]

Another post full of logical fallancies:

#A Why are you sending these crusades in the first place? All other Chapters sent Battle Company + support and they seems to carry on well.

#B Why 5 of them? Why not 4, 6, 7 etc. etc.?

#C What if there is a situation, where you need to fight in >5 places at a time?

#D 200 Astartes in one formation is actually too much. It is overkill in the most cases.

 

A: They swore a crusade of vengeance on the creatures that wiped out their brothers. They don't know where they live, and for a long while think they're Chaos in nature, so they crusade in the area in order to find either Necrons or Chaos. Or Orks. Or anything that needs killed for the Emperor.

B: Why not 2? Why not one big crusade? It's just a preference. 10 original companies split nicely into five Crusades. I just halved the number.

C: Then they might have a problem. But odds are they won't have to. And if it comes down to it one of the Crusades can divide their forces depending on the enemy strength. And this argument could really go on forever - what if they have to fight in more than 10? 20? 30?

D: I never said that there was one button to deploy the Astartes and it's all 200 or none. There's 200 in the Crusade - does that mean all 200 deploy at the same time? No. If the situation calls for only ten, then they can deploy only ten. If it requires all 200, they can deploy all 200. It depends on the situation. Yes, 200 is most assuredly overkill, but that's to ensure they always have enough firepower regardless of what they run into.

 

At this point non-existant.

 

Not non-existent. Not discovered/accepted by the Imperium. First contact happened in 666.M40 according to the Time Line here. Which means someone ran into a Necron at that time. Did the Imperium see them as a threat? No, they most likely dismissed it as nothing. Which is what happens in what I wrote - the Inquisition brushes it off or just groups it under Chaos and continues business. The Wardens also see it as a Chaos threat and try to hunt it down even though the Inquisition thinks it's nothing.

 

Then the dreaded question is in the place: WHY?

 

It's called being prepared. If you don't need 200 marines right away, but you have the capability, it's being prepared. They're out looking for a force that wiped out a company of Astartes. They want to be ready to run into the same situation again. Most of the time they're not going to need the full force of a Crusade, but if they do need them they'll have them. It also lets them mix and match deployments on the fly. Where a regular chapter would have to deploy a battle company plus support, a Crusade has support already there. If they need 50 marines for a mission that requires long range fire support, they can put in X number of devastators because they have a large number of them already in the force. They don't have to coordinate with another company like a Codex chapter would, which is useful in their situation because they are often in completely different areas than the rest of the chapter.

 

See above. The 200 Astartes is overkill in most case and it's crippling your ability to lead the war in more than 5 places.

 

Same, see above. Yes 200 is overkill, but they're not always deploying that many. It's just the number they have available in the fleet for rapid deployment. If a situation starts out relatively small and explodes, they have the capacity to crush most anything. And like I said, that argument could be used for a Codex chapter as well. It's pointless to argue it.

 

Crusades are roaming across entire Imperium. If the Chapter has homeworld, it means in most cases that the Chapter was assigned to defend this particular sector. Wandering abroad =/= defending you assigned sector.

 

When I said Crusade I meant isolated to the relative area they found the Necrons. It's not a Black Templar crusade where they just wander all over and kill what needs to be killed. It's a crusade of vengeance against the Necrons. They're in their Segmentum, searching for this elusive threat, and they're fully able to return to defend their homeworld if the need arises.

 

So in order to be ready for every situtation:

- You deny yourself any means of reinforcements.

- You are restricted to use the sledge-hammer even in situations when it is not required.

- You have no means to tailor your forces for more special situation.

 

- They always have reinforcements at the ready. Like I said they don't always deploy all 200 marines. They might have 20 deployed but have the capacity to drop the almighty hammer of the Emperor on the heads of anyone that dares escalate the situation.

- Not at all. They always have the sledge-hammer on board, in case they need it, but they can deploy a scalpel if the mission requires it. The chapter master doesn't have two buttons, one saying DEPLOY ALL the other saying DEPLOY NONE.

- They absolutely can. They have a wide variety of marines aboard at all times and they can deploy certain numbers of each depending on the situation.

[Ezekial Gravestone]

ok simple fix, not enough ships, for a 10 companie brake up, most marine ships are large enough to hold multiple companies, but with 2 captains onbored things get confussing i would guess, so for simplisity they removed the second captain, so they have a small fleet

 

so yeah

[Blacklight]

Working on Homeworld a bit now, tossing some names out there:

 

- Styx

- Pyrax

- Masada (I know it's a real-life place, but I rather like it :P )

- Lastrati

- Ariel

- Anachronos

- Boralis

- Charadon

- Golgotha

- Helios

 

Let me know what y'all like best! Planning on it being a death world, having the chapter pull its recruits from the inhabitants, but I'm open to suggestions.

[NightrawenII]

At this point non-existant.

Not non-existent. Not discovered/accepted by the Imperium. First contact happened in 666.M40 according to the Time Line here. Which means someone ran into a Necron at that time. Did the Imperium see them as a threat? No, they most likely dismissed it as nothing. Which is what happens in what I wrote - the Inquisition brushes it off or just groups it under Chaos and continues business. The Wardens also see it as a Chaos threat and try to hunt it down even though the Inquisition thinks it's nothing.

Yes, non-existant. The Necrons at this point don't exists, it simple like that. Why is your Chapter swearing mighty oath to destroy something which doesn't exists? Where you get the confidence that this is galaxy-wide threat? What lead them to believe that this is NOT exception like others and go on rampage around looking for ghosts? :)

 

My point here is that most of your reasoning is based on foresight. Your marine don't have such advantage. They will cleanse the Tomb World in fury of vengeance and then continue with their normal duties. Because, in their belief, they destroyed every single trace of this threat. You have to give me plausible explanation, why would they insists on otherwise. :)

 

And btw, the first contact you keep insisting on is the encounter with Necron's ships, not the Necrons itself.

 

C: Then they might have a problem. But odds are they won't have to. And if it comes down to it one of the Crusades can divide their forces depending on the enemy strength. And this argument could really go on forever - what if they have to fight in more than 10? 20? 30?

D: I never said that there was one button to deploy the Astartes and it's all 200 or none. There's 200 in the Crusade - does that mean all 200 deploy at the same time? No. If the situation calls for only ten, then they can deploy only ten. If it requires all 200, they can deploy all 200. It depends on the situation. Yes, 200 is most assuredly overkill, but that's to ensure they always have enough firepower regardless of what they run into.

Having your 'crusades' divided into smaller deployments for the most of time, somewhat defeats the purpose of creating these superformations in the first place. :P

 

It's called being prepared. If you don't need 200 marines right away, but you have the capability, it's being prepared. They're out looking for a force that wiped out a company of Astartes. They want to be ready to run into the same situation again.

If so, another hundred marines doesn't cut it. It would require entire Chapter to actually make a difference.

 

Where a regular chapter would have to deploy a battle company plus support, a Crusade has support already there.

Ehm, where is difference?

 

Same, see above. Yes 200 is overkill, but they're not always deploying that many. It's just the number they have available in the fleet for rapid deployment. If a situation starts out relatively small and explodes, they have the capacity to crush most anything. And like I said, that argument could be used for a Codex chapter as well. It's pointless to argue it.

Actually no.

The 'normal' Chapters, unlike yours, operate in close proximity to their Homeworld or Fleet, which means that they could be reinforced in very little time. You crusades are rampaging across the entire Imperium or Segmentum, with low to zero means to call for reinforcements or help.

 

When I said Crusade I meant isolated to the relative area they found the Necrons. It's not a Black Templar crusade where they just wander all over and kill what needs to be killed. It's a crusade of vengeance against the Necrons. They're in their Segmentum, searching for this elusive threat...

Yeah, and they will not find anything for millenium... rather embarrassing don't you think?

 

Edit:

- Styx

- Charadon

- Golgotha

- Helios

are already taken or used. I will look up "Lastrati", but I have bad feeling that it's been used too.

 

Edit Edit:

Yep, Codex: Black Templars, Second Purging of Lastrati.

[Blacklight]

Yes, non-existant. The Necrons at this point don't exists, it simple like that. Why is your Chapter swearing mighty oath to destroy something which doesn't exists? Where you get the confidence that this is galaxy-wide threat? What lead them to believe that this is NOT exception like others and go on rampage around looking for ghosts? ;)

 

My point here is that most of your reasoning is based on foresight. Your marine don't have such advantage. They will cleanse the Tomb World in fury of vengeance and then continue with their normal duties. Because, in their belief, they destroyed every single trace of this threat. You have to give me plausible explanation, why would they insists on otherwise. :D

 

And btw, the first contact you keep insisting on is the encounter with Necron's ships, not the Necrons itself.

 

If the Necrons have been around for umpteen millions of years since they ran into the C'tan, they do exist. They don't exist to the Imperium, but they are there. And you're right, they don't know it's a galaxy wide threat. Crusade isn't the best term for it, probably. It might be better to have them Crusade later. When they get wiped out at first, they swear an oath of vengeance on their foes and return later to wipe them out. Then they go back to business as usual for a time until they find another Tomb World, which tips them off to the fact that the threat is bigger than just a single planet. It's at that point they go on Crusade.

 

Having your 'crusades' divided into smaller deployments for the most of time, somewhat defeats the purpose of creating these superformations in the first place. :o

 

Not at all. The US Army deploys more than they need all the time, for example. An Army base might have 1,000 troops in it at all times, but a simple road patrol only requires 10-15 of them. Having the rest there isn't a waste, it's being prepared. If you deploy a small number, and something happens, you need to ensure you have backup close at hand.

 

If so, another hundred marines doesn't cut it. It would require entire Chapter to actually make a difference.

 

It certainly wouldn't hurt. If they run into an active Tomb World, yeah they'll need more backup. They'll send a message to the other Crusades that they've found a Tomb World and require assistance and do what they can until others arrive.

 

Ehm, where is difference?

 

A company with support tacked on has two chains of command. A captain of the battle company, and a captain of the support company. They have to coordinate together which naturally slows results. A Crusade has everything included in one command chain, with one captain, which makes getting things done easier.

 

Actually no.

The 'normal' Chapters, unlike yours, operate in close proximity to their Homeworld or Fleet, which means that they could be reinforced in very little time. You crusades are rampaging across the entire Imperium or Segmentum, with low to zero means to call for reinforcements or help.

 

With the Warp what it is, even if a normal Chapter was off relatively close to its homeworld, there's still a chance the message will never make it through the Warp. It's a risk that comes with Warp travel. For what their mission type is I think doubling up works relatively well towards being prepared. I can think of only a few occasions that an entire Company has been deployed and those are things like Abaddon's Crusades and what have you.

 

Yeah, and they will not find anything for millenium... rather embarrassing don't you think?

 

True. Well, they could find things, though it would go against the timeline and I don't want to change that which is why I had the Imperium/Inquisition dismiss their claims. My new thought is that they wipe out the enemies that attacked them originally and continue on fighting Chaos, Eldar, Orks, whoever. Years later they stumble upon another Tomb World which sparks their Crusade now that they realize the threat is larger than just a single world.

 

Edit:

- Styx

- Charadon

- Golgotha

- Helios

are already taken or used. I will look up "Lastrati", but I have bad feeling that it's been used too.

 

Edit Edit:

Yep, Codex: Black Templars, Second Purging of Lastrati.

 

Cool, Masada isn't taken. For some reason I'm just attracted to that name. Is it unheard of for a Space Marine chapter's homeworld to be a Forge world? I had the idea that Masada (or whatever it ends up getting called) is a Forge World, and adds to the chapter's attraction to dreadnoughts. But again, I'm not sure how often that happens.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Is it unheard of for a Space Marine chapter's homeworld to be a Forge world? I had the idea that Masada (or whatever it ends up getting called) is a Forge World, and adds to the chapter's attraction to dreadnoughts. But again, I'm not sure how often that happens.

 

Forge Worlds are the province of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the don't play nice or share willingly.

 

Also, most - if not all? - Forge Worlds have at least some Titan Legion presence; what is the power of the Astartes compared to a walking bastion of hatred and doom?

 

Dreadnoughts are not simple to manufacture and I can't imagine many but the most high profile/oldest Forge Worlds ebing able to do so; if they were easy to make, why so few?

[Ecritter]

Hey, I read that some of the AdMech's forgeworlds were lost to them during the warp heavy era before the crusade ... is it possible that the Chapter found one of these long lost (and long forgotten) forgeworlds and made it their homeworld before they even realised what it was?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Hey, I read that some of the AdMech's forgeworlds were lost to them during the warp heavy era before the crusade ... is it possible that the Chapter found one of these long lost (and long forgotten) forgeworlds and made it their homeworld before they even realised what it was?

 

It's possible, but still highly unlikely.. That world would still consider itself as part of the AdMech however distant in time and space, plus the "true" Adeptus Mechanicus would quite rightly - and with no recourse from the Chapter - demand that world back into their fold.

 

Remember, the Emperor granted them monopoly on technology and with that the "internal sovereignty" of their own worlds - much in the way that an Astartes homeworld is inviolate territory.

[Ecritter]

Hey, I read that some of the AdMech's forgeworlds were lost to them during the warp heavy era before the crusade ... is it possible that the Chapter found one of these long lost (and long forgotten) forgeworlds and made it their homeworld before they even realised what it was?

 

It's possible, but still highly unlikely.. That world would still consider itself as part of the AdMech however distant in time and space, plus the "true" Adeptus Mechanicus would quite rightly - and with no recourse from the Chapter - demand that world back into their fold.

 

Remember, the Emperor granted them monopoly on technology and with that the "internal sovereignty" of their own worlds - much in the way that an Astartes homeworld is inviolate territory.

 

But what if, and hear me out on this, all the AdMech on the planet were long dead and the population has devolved to a barbaric state. Now the Chapter would find it and consider it ripe with acceptable youths ... only later to find the long lost and buried AdMech facilities. Also it would have to be that the AdMech proper had no real records of the planet ... would that work?

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Hey, I read that some of the AdMech's forgeworlds were lost to them during the warp heavy era before the crusade ... is it possible that the Chapter found one of these long lost (and long forgotten) forgeworlds and made it their homeworld before they even realised what it was?

 

It's possible, but still highly unlikely.. That world would still consider itself as part of the AdMech however distant in time and space, plus the "true" Adeptus Mechanicus would quite rightly - and with no recourse from the Chapter - demand that world back into their fold.

 

Remember, the Emperor granted them monopoly on technology and with that the "internal sovereignty" of their own worlds - much in the way that an Astartes homeworld is inviolate territory.

 

But what if, and hear me out on this, all the AdMech on the planet were long dead and the population has devolved to a barbaric state. Now the Chapter would find it and consider it ripe with acceptable youths ... only later to find the long lost and buried AdMech facilities. Also it would have to be that the AdMech proper had no real records of the planet ... would that work?

 

You strengthen your case, but again, once the AdMech learn of it - and they will, they have fleets that hunt lost tech remember - they would demand at the very least all the equipment on the planet.

 

And given the scope of equipment on even a minor Forge World, it's almost a certainty they could point ot this world historically belonging to them- even without actual records.

 

On the point of records; there is no such thing as "lost records" in the 40k universe - someone, somewhere, always knows.

[Ecritter]

Not true, from what I read they sent out ships and never heard from them again. This could be where one of those ships crashed and set up factories. Its not perfect, but its a start.

 

Blacklight would still have to write it up just right. Small facilities, little tech salvagable, no remaining records .... and the Chapter never found out for centuries or longer after they took control of the planet.

[Blacklight]

Forge Worlds are the province of the Adeptus Mechanicus and the don't play nice or share willingly.

 

Also, most - if not all? - Forge Worlds have at least some Titan Legion presence; what is the power of the Astartes compared to a walking bastion of hatred and doom?

 

Dreadnoughts are not simple to manufacture and I can't imagine many but the most high profile/oldest Forge Worlds ebing able to do so; if they were easy to make, why so few?

 

Oh you misunderstood. I didn't mean it would be a way for them to get more dreadnoughts, I just meant it would explain part of their fascination with them - because they're from an AdMech homeworld, they're more open to technology and such. I know the STC for dreadnoughts is long gone, I didn't mean to say they would be able to get more dreadnoughts because of it. :pinch:

 

But what if, and hear me out on this, all the AdMech on the planet were long dead and the population has devolved to a barbaric state. Now the Chapter would find it and consider it ripe with acceptable youths ... only later to find the long lost and buried AdMech facilities. Also it would have to be that the AdMech proper had no real records of the planet ... would that work?

 

That... that's... that's pretty epic, actually. Could be that after they discovered the AdMech facilities they told the Mechanicus and they reached an agreement that would let the Mechanicus come and recover their forges but would let the Wardens continue to recruit from there, in exchange for protection - at least initially, until the Adeptus Titanicus arrived to take over defense. With the Titanicus there, the Wardens would be more able to explore farther from the homeworld because the Titans have the defenses under control while the majority of the chapter is off searching for Necrons.

 

Bloody great idea! Might not work, but I still like it :ermm: