IA: Steel Wardens

[Ezekial Gravestone]

i...i think we spirialed into something we should leave, i apologize for mentioning necrons so long ago...can we move on to refering to them as anchint machine men? or something so this can stop...the mention of necron models and socks as a bola kinda has me thinking of bad supersciance and stuff that should not be done

 

thank you and again i apologize

[Blacklight]

If there is some kind of bargain involved, something the Mechanicus and Astartes benefits them more than the other party.. Then yes.

 

Hm. I'll have to think on that more, I want them and the Mechanicus to have a good relationship.

 

- Also term for "shield"

 

Yeah that's why I liked it, it fit the role they (would) need to fill really well.

 

- I wish I was putting this much effort into my own IA ;)

 

Heh, well I'm glad you're helping out! If I can I'll be sure to send some tips your way though it certainly looks like you're well on your way.

 

- Very good. The Why? is all remember, in this case not having to explain Why? cuts down on the work.

 

Good point, it's a whole lot easier to write than a bunch of... what is the word I'm looking for? Green robot aliens? It's on the tip of my tongue but I can't recall it...

 

- It was that or I was going to find a big bag of Necron minis and beat you to death with them.

 

It might be time to update my sig :(

 

Interesting idea, might I suggest considering using the interred Chapter Master etc as a High Council, to which the current leadership reports? I.e. not an active field role unless absolutely necessary?

 

I actually considered that first. Instead of a chapter master I was going to have a Council of Ancients/War, which would consist of several venerable dreads. I'm still up in the air about it. Since I moved the founding to around the 16th, having the first chapter master be killed in battle wouldn't be an issue. After he falls, instead of replacing them they decide to form a Council that will run the chapter. Not sure if I want to have it be only four or five dreads or just every dread in the chapter.

 

i...i think we spirialed into something we should leave, i apologize for mentioning necrons so long ago...can we move on to refering to them as anchint machine men? or something so this can stop...the mention of necron models and socks as a bola kinda has me thinking of bad supersciance and stuff that should not be done

 

thank you and again i apologize

 

Don't worry mate, we're most definitely backing away from that subject :lol:

 

I sat down last night to get stuck into writing the Origins section and found... that I am horrible at summarizing. I'm so used to writing fanfiction novels and the like that I want to draw everything out and go into as much detail as humanly possible instead of only briefly touching on each major subject. That, and I haven't pounded out the 'in between' years of the chapter so once I had the Founding written and a little about their homeworld, I ran into a writer's wall. I'm hoping that'll fix itself as time goes on so I can throw some more material up for you guys to critique.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Don't worry mate, we're most definitely backing away from that subject :lol:

 

We better be.. *hefts anti-Necron Bag of Doom^TM

[Blacklight]

Don't worry mate, we're most definitely backing away from that subject :lol:

 

We better be.. *hefts anti-Necron Bag of Doom^TM

 

:lol: Did I say Necrons? I meant... um... Neurons! Yeah, Neurons! :cuss

[NightrawenII]

Instead of reserve companies they'll have equal force companies (much to the chagrin of Nightrawen, I'm sure :( ) but there will still be 10 of them - like I've said this is really a personal preference thing and I really don't want to drop it.

No, I'm against the idea of 5 companies with 200+ marines each.

 

The chapter master leads a team inside to find out if anything's alive, and upon reaching the lower levels, they find the evolved Orks. Not sure what sort of evolutions they'll have but regardless they'll swarm the small team and bring down the chapter master.

Eh, Why would Chapter Master lead a scout team? It's like U.S. general leading scout team in Afghanistan.

[Telveryon]

No, I'm against the idea of 5 companies with 200+ marines each.

That you are personally against that idea inconsequential. The idea itself plausible enough and he gives a plausible enough reason.

 

We, here in the Liber, should shoot down ideas (unless they go against established fluff, then we have a solemn duty to fill it with more mass reactive rounds then its volume can accommodate) just because we don't like them but to improve them. It's not the author's job to make the chapter that's to everyone's liking (and, frankly, quite impossible), but the one that he like. If others like it, all the better but that's not a benchmark.

[NightrawenII]

[Crafty Joke]Weeeeeell, technically speaking the 5 companies with 200+ each *is* against established fluff. :huh: [/Crafty Joke]

 

Edit: Because some members here don't know what the {{ :ermm: }} stands for. :mellow:

[Ecritter]

Salamanders differ from most if not all other chapters in that each company possesses 120 men as opposed to the standard 100 that the Codex Astartes promotes. Additionally, instead of having 10 companies, the Salamanders have only 6 companies of marines in addition to a small company of about 60 scouts

 

Outside of established fluff ... but not by much and is plausable.

[Telveryon]

Weeeeeell, technically speaking the 5 companies with 200+ each *is* against established fluff. :ermm: :mellow:

Do please point me where it says that all chapters have 10 companies?

 

On the other hand I remember quite distinctly that the Eye of Terror campaign book named a chapter that had at least 11 companies and it wasn't a Chapter of Legend.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Alright lets keep things easy.

 

On the one hand codex organization is something that has been well established over the years and to break from it needlessly doesn't make sense since it has been proven umpteenth times that it works and works well.

 

Also, doing what GW does is not always a good thing, as we all know. More than a few of their official and most venerated first founding chapters are either badly themed, written or even languishing in almost complete anonymity (Iron Hands).

 

On the other hand, sticking to the codex organization rigidly isn't necessary for the chapter to function or make sense, being like the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists (boring as hell in other words) isn't a good thing either.

 

At the end of the day Blacklight, you need to do this in order to justify it:

 

1] Give an example of a situation in the chapters history where the standard codex organization didn't work for them.

 

2] Have the chapters officers at the time devise and then test the new system and find it to be a positive result.

 

3] Have it all make sense logically. I mean make the 200 marines do their job in a way 100 marines couldn't in a logical fashion.

 

The Liber aren't able to mind read (yet), so we need you to properly explain in full the way it makes sense to you in your head in a way that you think will make sense to us, even the most stubborn of your critics, so that we may understand better and help you all the more.

 

This doesn't have to be an essay, a short summation will do, but it does need to make sense. I don't think there's anything wrong with having 5 companies, even though I do personally think it's like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, especially considering the Astartes role as the Imperium's premier special forces.

 

Special forces by definition strike hard and fast but not in numbers, their training and elite nature are supposed to mitigate this, in the situations where it has to.

 

That said, maybe taking a look at the original special forces like the Sturmtruppen of the first world war or the British Commandos of WW2 (specifically their raids on Nazi held Norway, large numbers used there) would help.

[Blacklight]

No, I'm against the idea of 5 companies with 200+ marines each.

 

Ah. Well I'm not drastically opposed to having 10 Companies. Basically I keep getting drawn away from what this chapter should really be about, and that is dreadnoughts. In trying to come up with plausible reasons for having them be dreadnought oriented, I get distracted. Basically the 5 Crusade setup was because they were off hunting Necrons because their chapter master was killed by them, yada yada yada. Having done away with the Necron idea completely there's no real reason for them to have the Crusade setup. My next plan is to have them go on a purge of the planet trying to eradicate the Ork infestation beneath the surface, and in that sort of situation 5 Crusades wouldn't work as well as the 10 Companies.

 

Eh, Why would Chapter Master lead a scout team? It's like U.S. general leading scout team in Afghanistan.

 

Well my original thought is that since it's a Mechanicus facility, and they are Iron Hands descendants, the chapter master doesn't want anything disturbed if they can help it and decides to lead the team personally. Though I can see how it's a bit off, might be they send a team down that gets taken out and the chapter master gets killed some time later while they're attempting to purge the place.

 

On the one hand codex organization is something that has been well established over the years and to break from it needlessly doesn't make sense since it has been proven umpteenth times that it works and works well.

 

Also, doing what GW does is not always a good thing, as we all know. More than a few of their official and most venerated first founding chapters are either badly themed, written or even languishing in almost complete anonymity (Iron Hands).

 

On the other hand, sticking to the codex organization rigidly isn't necessary for the chapter to function or make sense, being like the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists (boring as hell in other words) isn't a good thing either.

 

At the end of the day Blacklight, you need to do this in order to justify it:

 

1] Give an example of a situation in the chapters history where the standard codex organization didn't work for them.

 

2] Have the chapters officers at the time devise and then test the new system and find it to be a positive result.

 

3] Have it all make sense logically. I mean make the 200 marines do their job in a way 100 marines couldn't in a logical fashion.

 

The Liber aren't able to mind read (yet), so we need you to properly explain in full the way it makes sense to you in your head in a way that you think will make sense to us, even the most stubborn of your critics, so that we may understand better and help you all the more.

 

This doesn't have to be an essay, a short summation will do, but it does need to make sense. I don't think there's anything wrong with having 5 companies, even though I do personally think it's like cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, especially considering the Astartes role as the Imperium's premier special forces.

 

Thanks for the advice, GHY. Like I said I'm back to the 10 Company setup - the 5 Crusades were going to be because if the Wardens were off searching for Necrons, and they ran into a Tomb World, they needed numbers on their side to make sure they could stand their ground. But again, since we're not talking Necrons anymore (for fear of the Anti-Necron Bag of Doom), there's really no reason for them to bulk up their forces like that. It makes more sense for them to be in 10 now since they're going to be trying to purge their homeworld of Orks, and with the tunnels beneath Masada as elaborate as they are, it's going to take more than 5 divisions to do it.

 

I'm off snowboarding today, but hopefully I'll get past this writer's block soon and be able to start going into more detail on their homeworld and such. My plan for now is to just write like I'm comfortable doing - semi-novel form - and then trim it down from there. I'm horrible at writing in IA style, I've found. Hopefully starting with a lot and paring it down will be a bit easier than just writing straight to IA format.

[Blacklight]

Another (relatively) big update. I went on a writing spree last night and got around 2,900 words of fluff for the Wardens. I didn't touch on their history at all, mostly because I just wasn't feeling it at the time and didn't want to write something sub-par. I did - in my opinion - hit a sweet spot with the rest of the writing though, but I'm sure you guys are lining up with the bowling balls :D If anyone's up for reading through it all, I would appreciate feedback on anything.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Eh, Why would Chapter Master lead a scout team? It's like U.S. general leading scout team in Afghanistan.

 

Because Marines are more of a lead from the front army. You see Captains, the equivalent of a Colonel in my opinion, leading forces in relatively minor engagements, often times being stuck in the middle of the combat. I can see the Chapter Master doing this.

 

I really like this IA and where it's going, and hope to see this in the Librarium one day.

[Blacklight]

Eh, Why would Chapter Master lead a scout team? It's like U.S. general leading scout team in Afghanistan.

 

Because Marines are more of a lead from the front army. You see Captains, the equivalent of a Colonel in my opinion, leading forces in relatively minor engagements, often times being stuck in the middle of the combat. I can see the Chapter Master doing this.

 

I really like this IA and where it's going, and hope to see this in the Librarium one day.

 

My feelings exactly, Ignis. In my mind I see Captains and Chapter Masters leading from the front. The Ultramarines movie is a prime example of this, where Severus leads a squad when a sergeant could have done adequately well.

 

And thank you very much for the encouragement. I would love nothing more than to be included in the Librarium, though I know full well that will take a lot of work.

[NightrawenII]

Because Marines are more of a lead from the front army. You see Captains, the equivalent of a Colonel in my opinion, leading forces in relatively minor engagements, often times being stuck in the middle of the combat. I can see the Chapter Master doing this.

My feelings exactly, Ignis. In my mind I see Captains and Chapter Masters leading from the front. The Ultramarines movie is a prime example of this, where Severus leads a squad when a sergeant could have done adequately well.

Leading your troops from the front in actual combat is different than leading scout team in the caves under your house, guys. It is matter of priorities.

 

 

P.S. It is amusing how people are using the Ultramarines: The movie as the argument, while everyone and their momma complains about stupidity of the plot in reviews topics. :P

[Blacklight]

I had no problem with the plot of the movie. I really enjoyed it and I'm glad I got the special edition. Is it the strongest plot in the world? No, but I liked it nonetheless.

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

I don't really want to derail the thread but since everyone is talking about the movie....

 

 

 

 

The plot was pretty average, in the most boring, almost offensive use of the word. It was just, well, nothing.

 

One of my problems with it was the characterization of the marines was... annoying and cliched and had zero depth.

 

One of the most annoying little niggling bits was the fact that they kept saying "This is your first battle as Ultramarines!" They were all in power armour, surely you are an Ultramarine when you are inducted into the 10th (scout) company? The focus on them being raw recruits was a bit odd considering no one but the Space Wolves puts their neophyte initiates into power armour. Also, an entire Strike Cruiser and only TEN Marines?

 

An entire shrine world is gone along with an entire company of Imperial Fists is lost and one squad is sent to investigate, from a completely different chapter!? Seriously?

 

I won't say more for people who haven't seen the movie but, honestly, it's all really amateur stuff. I'm sure there are many people here on the B&C and in the Liber and Librarium particularly who could have written a better script even with the fact of a tight budget for 3d animation.

 

Oh and one last thing. Bloody ULTRAMARINES!

 

You couldn't have picked a more boring subject chapter. At least the Imperial Fists have some character.

 

 

 

*Deep breath*

 

Ok I'm done.

 

In summation it was alright.

 

On the plus side the animation was fairly good and the movement of the Marines looked pretty good to my eyes.

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I don't really want to derail the thread but...

 

...I'm going to.

 

:)

[Grey Hunter Ydalir]

Nooo that's YOUR job! :)

[Blacklight]

You've got totally valid points and I agree with them, but the biggest problem was trying to make a movie for the fans, but also make it accessible to new people. What's the most easily recognized chapter? Ultramarines. They're everywhere. Would it have been awesome to see Blood Angels, Black Templars, or one of the more awesome chapters in it? Oh most definitely. But because those chapters are so unique it would be nearly impossible to cover their backstory in the timeframe of a movie. I would have loved to see more vehicles and dreadnoughts and the like, but again, it needed to be a really isolated view - like they discussed in the special features - because of the target audience. Keeping it to the most popular chapter, on the squad level, meant they could focus in on each character and all of that. If they made the force was larger, it would have been next to impossible to get the detail.

 

That being said, I do think they could have done better, but it was good for what it was. It showed a Warhammer 40,000 movie could be done, and I'm almost positive it got a good enough reception to get another one with a bigger budget. Here's hoping it covers a better chapter, too

 

But anyway, in an attempt to try and re-rail the thread, anyone got comments on the new material?

[Blacklight]

Added the Beliefs section, goes over their views on dreadnoughts and the like. Any comments?

[Blacklight]

Hey all. Been about a week since I last updated, and I'm still hoping to get some feedback on the sections I have up before I continue on. Anything you can add is appreciated!

 

No history yet, I want to get their 'core' down solid and build their history off of that, so getting their organization, combat doctrine, beliefs system, etc. in a believable state is my priority.

 

Also, apologies for the bump of a bump - I don't like doing it but I got buried on page 3 and I decided it was time to do it.

[Madwolf Shadowmane]

I like it. It seems that Terminator honors are almost discounted in your belief section. Maybe make that as a stage on their road to internment. Also maybe describe a visual display on those who have earned the honor of becoming a Dreadnought. Some type of heraldry of something like the Crux. Those are the only things I noticed at this point.

 

Madwolf

[Plague Angel]

I like it. I like it a lot. It's not perfect, but there's a lot of good stuff here. It's all very imaginative, but believable — I feel like I can see the Fortress Monastery in my mind's eye. Great job.

 

That said, here are my issues.

 

"The mind of the indolent becomes undone, but the mind of the diligent becomes keen." - Chapter Master Dacien Septimus, first Chapter Master of the Steel Wardens, the Codex Eternum.

 

I read the IA twice and I can't see what this quote has to do with anything.

 

Intended to defend against Chaos and Ork incursions in the Segmentum Ultima, they were given the relatively unknown world of Masada as both their homeworld and staging area for attacks against their enemies.

 

I know you're not finished, but so far I see Orks but no Chaos.

 

A dry and mountainous world, Masada is officially labeled a Dead World

 

Rathe sloppy on the Imperium's part.

 

One of the questions the chapter had about the planet’s strange tunnel network was simple – where did they come from?

 

Too casual for an IA. Could easily be The origin of the tunnels was unknown, until... or something else as an easy fix.

 

The barbarians generally know how to avoid the tunnel Orks – they aren’t generally stealthy and the learned clansmen can hear them long before the Orks are upon them. The Orks themselves have split into a number of tribes, each led by a Warboss, that continually wage war upon each other for territory. The Wardens and barbarians are almost completely safe on the surface, as the Orks cannot venture into the sun, and the night cycle of Masada generally lasts for only a few hours depending on the location.

 

 

Inside the walls are the chapter’s assembly grounds. Marines often spend time sparring here, when they seek to hone their close combat skills, and it also is home to the firing ranges.

 

The two independent clauses have different subjects. It'd be better as two sentences.

 

Within the chapter keep is the majority of the fortress-monastery.

 

Awkwardly passive. The majority of the fortress-monastery is within the chapter keep.

 

Steel Wardens are primarily a ranged fighting force, as dictated by their time fighting in the tunnels of Masada.

 

Aren't tunnels rather enclosed quarters? Dwarfs in Warhammer Fantasy are melee specialists for the same reason your Marines are ranged specialists. Oh wait, look here:

 

Close combat in the tunnels is a dangerous thing, and due to the sheer size of the caverns fighting at range is actually the better tactical decision.

 

But why? You say "this is better" but you don't explain why it's better.

 

 

The chapter’s terminators typically are used in a similar fashion to the assault squads, which is one of close-combat. Though the terminators can field assault cannons, using thunder hammers, lightning claws, and power fists at close range is the more useful tactic considering the rest of the chapter has the ranged superiority.

 

Your average Marines are better shots than the veterans? Or are heavy bolters better than assault cannons somehow? I don't see why the shooty chapter doesn't have shooty Termies.

[Captain Forcystus]

"The mind of the indolent becomes undone, but the mind of the diligent becomes keen." - Chapter Master Dacien Septimus, first Chapter Master of the Steel Wardens, the Codex Eternum.

 

I think it has something to do with the chapter's methods of keeping it's Dreadnoughts sane or something