Missing Legions hidden within the Primogenitors?

[zarnak21]

I'm reading The First Heretic at the moment and without spoiling it. It implies that the deleted Legions were broken up and distributed among the other Legions. I had a quick look at the Ultramarines successors and the Doom Eagles really stood out as Not Very Ultramariney.

 

What do you think?

 

Any other 2nd founding Chapters that stand out?

 

All of creation suffers, young ones. Only in accepting our own mortality can we make a difference. Only in bearing the burden of our failures can we find the strength to go on. Only in detachment from glory, or honour, or jealousy... from life itself can we hope to spare others from grief.

 

We are Doom Eagles. And we are dead already.

+++ Librarian Secundus Thryn of the Doom Eagles +++

 

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Doom_Eagles

 

for reference thats where the quote is from.

[Midgard]

Iron Snakes.

 

Consider this - they are supposed to be 2nd Founding (and implied to be of Ultramarine 2nd Founding), and they seem to revere Guilliman (and they seem to have no gene-seed issues, as demonstrated by their use of Beltcher gland to some effect). But...

 

1) They are about as non-Codex as they come in their organization (preeminence of Apothecaries, squad-based organization as opposed to company-based, the way new aspirants are promoted to squads, etc).

 

2) Their tactics and use of resources are very non-Codex as I understand it (for example the use of what seems like a Greek-style phalanx against the Orks, or sending of a single battle brother to defeat a Dark Eldar incursion)

 

3) Their reverence for Guilliman appears to be more of a respectful nod as opposed to outright worship or the like, usually expected of a Chapter that has special attachment to "it's" Primarch

 

4) They are aware of Codex but choose to ignore it on many points

 

I cannot claim full credit for this, as the above was brought up by one of the posters on my (generally non-40K-related) forum, but there are definite points of interest to consider.

[Brother Styphus]

Iron Snakes.

 

Consider this - they are supposed to be 2nd Founding (and implied to be of Ultramarine 2nd Founding), and they seem to revere Guilliman (and they seem to have no gene-seed issues, as demonstrated by their use of Beltcher gland to some effect). But...

 

 

The Betcher's gland works for Ultramarines, it's only the Imperial Fists that have known issues with that gland. As for the rest of those points, I refer to the author of Iron Snakes fluff, a man who can write interesting stories, but when it comes to Space Marine fluff I would rather rely on the guy I just started teaching Deathwatch to.

 

Now the Doom Angels I could see working. There's an older bit of short story to them called Pestilence where an apothecary succumbs to Nurgle. After just looking that up, I noticed it too was written by Dan Abnett.

 

 

To sum up this post:

Ultramarines movie. Dan Abnett's Norbit.

[zarnak21]

Iron snakes is a good idea. I've read the books. But if it were true I'd be a little disapointed. Although the greek theme fits well with some old greek/persian history

The Ten Thousand were a group of mercenary units, mainly Greek, drawn up by Cyrus the Younger to attempt to wrest the throne of the Persian Empire from his brother

GW like to take inspiration from real history. Cyrus could be a Primarch and the king of Persia his brother primarch (or the Emperor).

All I want is for them to come up with something good.

[Midgard]

Iron Snakes.

 

Consider this - they are supposed to be 2nd Founding (and implied to be of Ultramarine 2nd Founding), and they seem to revere Guilliman (and they seem to have no gene-seed issues, as demonstrated by their use of Beltcher gland to some effect). But...

 

 

The Betcher's gland works for Ultramarines, it's only the Imperial Fists that have known issues with that gland. As for the rest of those points, I refer to the author of Iron Snakes fluff, a man who can write interesting stories, but when it comes to Space Marine fluff I would rather rely on the guy I just started teaching Deathwatch to.

 

What I meant was that they are definitely NOT from Raven Guard, Imperial Fist, or Salamander gene-seed (all of which have very visible gene-seed issues, the latter being their appearance, which for Iron Snakes appears very normal), and the non-degraded state of gene-seed implies either Ultramarine founding, or another Legion with no known defects. Considering some other fluff references to First Founding Legions (not subsequent Chapters) generally having strongest gene-seed (see "Soul Hunter" by ADB), and considering how non-Ultramarine the Iron Snakes are despite their apparently 2nd Founding Ultramarine successor status, there is at least enough cursory evidence to suggest that Iron Snakes MIGHT be the remnant of one of the two Lost Legions absorbed into the Ultras and then allowed to go its own way as its own Chapter.

 

It is, of course, entirely possible that they are non-Ultra successor (and that the reference to Guilliman as the Primarch in the novel might have been misunderstood - nowhere does Abnett say that they are descended from Guilliman, merely that they seem to hold him in some esteem), or even an Ultra successor that drifted far away due to specific needs of the region under their protection, or perhaps even a latter-founding Chapter with its own ideas. I am merely discussing a possibility that, at least, provides for some interesting discussion material.

 

And in the end, it is essentially a discussion on the fictional characters in a fictional universe which tends to be in a state of flux, so there is a good chance I am taking numerous unconnected pieces of information and taking it beyond its logical conclusion. Either way I doubt we will get a canon statement on this matter.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

it has already been stated that the 2nd and 18th legion went missing so fans could create their own chapters aka 1 for chaos and 1 for loyalists, but no ones dares approach it because of the fluff nazi's that would 'cleanse' the forums of their creational belief.

[Ubermensch Commander]

I'm reading The First Heretic at the moment and without spoiling it. It implies that the deleted Legions were broken up and distributed among the other Legions. I had a quick look at the Ultramarines successors and the Doom Eagles really stood out as Not Very Ultramariney.

 

What do you think?

 

Any other 2nd founding Chapters that stand out?

 

All of creation suffers, young ones. Only in accepting our own mortality can we make a difference. Only in bearing the burden of our failures can we find the strength to go on. Only in detachment from glory, or honour, or jealousy... from life itself can we hope to spare others from grief.

 

We are Doom Eagles. And we are dead already.

+++ Librarian Secundus Thryn of the Doom Eagles +++

 

 

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Doom_Eagles

 

for reference thats where the quote is from.

 

 

Meh, Ultarmarines successors actually have a fair bit of leeway in their "interpretation" of the Codex. The Mortifactors, for example, are quite deviant in their practices.

And the First Heretic snippet "hinting" at that is from the Word Bearers. Not only do they have a prejudice against the Ultramarines they are also completely blinkered in their perception of the galaxy around them. Recall Malcador's shock when Lorgar didn't see the chastisement coming. His entire Legion is very good at believing what they want and disregarding all information to the contrary.

[isilvra]

How many of the members of the missing legions survived?

Taking down the thousand sons was apparently not the first time the Wolves of Fenris were used as such. If what Russ said is true there may not have been many left to hide.

[Codicier Lucion]

What, eight posts and no one has mentioned the Rainbow Warriors as being a possible lost legion?

[Vodunius]

Iron Snakes.

 

1) They are about as non-Codex as they come in their organization (preeminence of Apothecaries, squad-based organization as opposed to company-based, the way new aspirants are promoted to squads, etc).

 

2) Their tactics and use of resources are very non-Codex as I understand it (for example the use of what seems like a Greek-style phalanx against the Orks, or sending of a single battle brother to defeat a Dark Eldar incursion)

 

The impression I got was that the deviances might very well be the result of circumstance: the chapter having been tasked with protecting an area far too large for far too long leading to an abandonment of standard doctrine as being largely irrelevant. The spear/phalanx thing I assume to be traditions picked up from the recruitment world.

 

It should be noted that Insignium Astartes does list the Iron Snakes as a Codex chapter complete with company designations.

[NightrawenII]

it has already been stated that the 2nd and 18th legion went missing so fans could create their own chapters aka 1 for chaos and 1 for loyalists, but no ones dares approach it because of the fluff nazi's that would 'cleanse' the forums of their creational belief.

Wrong.

The Missing Legion approach is not supported by Liber, because it doesn't add anything interesting or creative to your work. We had discussion about this topic here.

[Custodian Athiair]

it has already been stated that the 2nd and 18th legion went missing so fans could create their own chapters aka 1 for chaos and 1 for loyalists, but no ones dares approach it because of the fluff nazi's that would 'cleanse' the forums of their creational belief.

 

first of all the 18th legion is the salamanders so i hope they aren't a lost legion...

otherwise there's a whole legion people have forgotten about... (the 11th)

 

sorry for being like that, but it was my chapter concerned :tu:

 

anyway the iron snakes sounds plausible.

 

but going back to the wolves thing, i would like to reference "The First Heretic", where the Word Bearers say that the Ultramarines got a large boost in numbers at the point the other two legions were 'forgotten/destroyed'. So "Prospero Burns" may say the wolves destroyed them, but maybe they just destroyed the command structure so that then the other marines were inducted into the legion that could deal with the numbers (eg. one that had an empire of worlds to store the extra marines). just and idea...

 

 

Athiair :angry:

[Trel]

My take on the missing Legions is not that they were absorbed into another Legion but expunged before they even left Terra.

 

Since the events of the expungement are spoken of in the past at a time when there are plenty of Terrans still in most of the Legions it's entirely plausible that:

- something in those Legions' gene-seed was unstable, worse still than the Wolves, Raven Guard, Thousand Sons, etc.

- the primarchs of those Legions were either never found, were killed, or were somehow corrupted and in conflict with the Emperor, so the Primarchs were destroyed and their Legions with them just to tie off the loose ends.

 

I can't believe, however, that a Legion managed to fly under the radar without a Primarch for any length of time. Someone would have noticed that.

[cosmo438]

What about the Custodian Guard? They have been present on Terra as the Imperial Palaces 'Praetorian' guard long before the Heresy took place, could it be that the one, or both missing legions were brought together to form this elite cohort? I don't know much about them, so it's possible/probable that someone will blast my speculation out of the water with some cannon (pun only slightly intended), on where the Custodians came from.

What is odd is that all other Space Marine Legions had active solo careas before their Primarchs were found, but the missing two are never spoken of. If the Primarchs simply hadn't been found yet, you would expect the Marines made with their gene-seed to still be active, seeking out their lost masters. So it's not only the Primarchs who are missing, but their whole legions, who should have been active in the early years of the Great Crusade like all the others were.

 

Since it's often suggested in HH books that the Emperor knew alot more about Chaos than he (perhapse foolishly) let on to his Sons, I think one or both missing legions were put aside for a secret war the Emperor knew would come when the time came to face the Chaos Gods openly. It was to protect humanity that he decided not to tell anyone about the forces at work within the warp. Even the Primarchs only had basic, simplistic knowledge of Chaos.

 

On a side note of pure fluff, it would be pretty cool if it turned out that the missing legions had been lost in the warp long before the Great Crusade even began (maybe during the Emperor's first attempt at battling chaos). Then those legions could reapear (probobly one loyal, one fallen). Imagin being lost in the warp for 10,000 odd years... :lol:

[Lazarine]

I must admit, I see a certain logic in the Doom Eagles and the Mortifactors, as unlikely as it is. Their obsessions with death and doom seem odd for an Ultramarines successor, but somehow logical for the descendants of a legion who were wiped out for some reason, maybe the doom and death motiffs come from some racial memory inherited from their primarchs, similar to the Blood Angels.

 

Whether or not it is true, it does sound like a cool idea for a later founding chapter with Doom Eagle geneseed, who have decided that they are descended from a lost founding (they have found evidence that is either true or planted by a conspiracy - Inquisition meddling or Alpha Legion) and are now less than cordial to the Ultramarines and their successors.

[Hengist Ironfang]

I dont believe the ultramarines company and captain in first heretic is from the missing legions quite simply because the book states that his name comes from a mythical beast of Macragge, if he were of another legion originally this would be a highly unlikely coincidence (it does state that their symbol was of a horse with a flaming mane so i would suggest that they didnt become the mortifactors or doom eagles either.

[Sons of Horus]

The Doom Eagles sound plausible but I really don't think we'll ever know for sure anyway. Maybe we're over thinking. Either way the missing legions are supposed to be free space for DIYs

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Here's a thought:

 

There are 20-odd Primogenitors of the Ultramarines, each of a thousand or so Marines, but from a Legion that numbered 250,000.. Where did the others go?

[Valkyrion]

My take on the missing Legions is not that they were absorbed into another Legion but expunged before they even left Terra.

 

Since the events of the expungement are spoken of in the past at a time when there are plenty of Terrans still in most of the Legions it's entirely plausible that:

- something in those Legions' gene-seed was unstable, worse still than the Wolves, Raven Guard, Thousand Sons, etc.

- the primarchs of those Legions were either never found, were killed, or were somehow corrupted and in conflict with the Emperor, so the Primarchs were destroyed and their Legions with them just to tie off the loose ends.

 

I can't believe, however, that a Legion managed to fly under the radar without a Primarch for any length of time. Someone would have noticed that.

 

All 20 Primarchs were found and all 20 legions fought in the Great Crusade. The two missing legions went missing prior to Ullanor but after Alpharius was found.

 

Only the Emperor's Children and Thousand Sons had unstable geneseed at the time of the GC/HH. These flaws were both 'fixed' in one way or another.

 

It is strongly implied that the two missing legions were inducted into the Ultramarines, albeit from a very biased source. The missing legions are also remembered with a degree of melancholy by those Primarchs encountered so far, and Dorn implied in Mechanicum that would have been loyal legions.

 

It is not unreasonable to assume that anything short of devastating mutation or old school firing squad type executions could end up with the marines of the legions being absorbed into other legions. It depends what the primarchs did.

Why waste good soldiers? It's the primarchs that have been punished/lost/sent on a secret mission/are otherwise engaged somewhere, not so much the legions.

[Corsair]

It'll probably be something fairly bland in the end, like the two primarchs decided to quit the Imperium and strike out on their own due to their dad being a colossal tosser.

 

You'd have to assume they were found fairly early on in the GC, as it's hard to imagine a Primarch being found, leading a legion, then having the smack laid down on them could be a speedy process.

[Legatus]

Here's a thought:

 

There are 20-odd Primogenitors of the Ultramarines, each of a thousand or so Marines, but from a Legion that numbered 250,000.. Where did the others go?

The Ultramarines Legion was divided into 24 Chapters. But that comes from a time when an average legion was 10,000 warriors strong and the Ultramarines apparently closer to 25,000. If GW is truly implementing the 100,000 figures from Black Library into the studio fluff, then apparently the Ultramarines suffered 90% casualties during the scouring.

 

 

It is strongly implied that the two missing legions were inducted into the Ultramarines

It is thrown in to tease the readers, without any intention from the author to actually retcon that into the fluff. That is not "strongly implied".

[Valkyrion]

If you are going to quote then at least quote the entire sentence.

 

It is strongly implied, by the Word Bearers, which are the biased source. I know it's not a retcon.

It is also a not altogether unreasonable implication, which was the point.

 

There is little information implying anything, from any source. As far as I can tell, that was the first mention of the missing legions by a standard marine in any of the books hinting at where they went.

[Solid Zaku]

The conversation was between Magnus and Lorgar over the latter's failings in their father's eyes. The conversation briefly hinted that Lorgar may end up expunged from Imperial records as was the Lost Primarchs. One of them also state that the dissolution of the Lost Primarch's forces were largely seconded to the Ultramarines, increasing their galactic holdings. The fact is that this is in there. Now, whether it gets retconned is something that remains to be seen, but as it stands, it is in there.

[Legatus]

One of them also state that the dissolution of the Lost Primarch's forces were largely seconded to the Ultramarines, increasing their galactic holdings. The fact is that this is in there. Now, whether it gets retconned is something that remains to be seen, but as it stands, it is in there.

It is not really a statement. It is just some wild conspiracy theory a few Word Bearers made up. Two of the Legions disappear + the Ultramarines become the largest of the Legions + the Word Bearers' dislike of the Ultramarines = Conspiracy theory.

 

The Author of that book was so kind as to respond to that issue. And he had also done so earlier. I would be mad at A D-B for putting such stuff like in "The First Heretic" out there, since obvioulsy a lot of readers will just take it at face value, but his continuing participation in the discussion about the issues and the background make it difficult to stay angry.

[Solid Zaku]

*Reads links.

 

I sheathe my sabre and drop the issue.