Sanguinary Guard

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

IP are the only upgrade I would consider for armor cracking when you run Sang Guard in low point lists.

[Drachnon]

I think the banner is can be worth its points but only if you add one or more IC to the squad (and lets face it we have plenty of options for IC's in our codex).

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I think a pair of melter pistols are essential - especially if you are playing versus a lot of mech armies. You can destroy a transport in the shooting phase then charge whatever spills out. I always take a power fist because I think it looks cool plus it is a bit of insurance but the power fist is not a must have - my experience everything is dead before the power fist ever gets to swing.

 

G

[VAGABOND]

I agree with Black Orange, I run at least 2 Infernus Pistols per squad and a Power Fist because you never know when you come up against Mech or that pesky Dreadnought in CC.

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

you never know when you come up against Mech or that pesky Dreadnought in CC.

 

The thing is: Yes you do!

Sang Guard have the speed to avoid both of these threats and assault them on their terms, not the other way around.

And when they are supported by 2 JP RAS with 2 meltas and a power fist each, the IP and PF on the Sang Guard is really wasted.

[ancient god]

You can at any rate get better and/or cheaper AT weaponry on most other squads, so it's always worth considering using them without pistols I think.

[Plague Angel]

No love for the death masks?

[ancient god]

I'm using some of the masks on my models because I think they look awesome, but 25 points is a steep price for the bonus they give. For 30 points you get plus 5-6 attacks (banner) or some serious AT weaponry (2x IP), and the viability of that expenditure is already what people are doubting here.

 

Plus you can use the points elsewhere in the army. 25 points gives you a power fist, almost a whole nother assault marine with a special weapon, and so on.

 

I built mine with no extras at all, just 200 points straight. I've got enough boxes lying around to build either another squad or at least a banner bearer but I'm leaving the banner out too, for now.

[ashen]

I've used them in about 5-6 games and I have learnt how to use them effectively. I run 5 with no upgrades (at 1200 points you want to keep them cheap), with a priest nearby. They are guaranteed to cause damage regardless of what they hit, even if only three survive with a priest they will pop tac squads, oblits, guard, eldar squads, etc. I always take the view that if my opponent is concentrating so hard on my sanguard that they ignore the rest of my assault squads (I play DoA) then thats a bonus for me.

Besides, sometimes life is not about pure effectiveness, but what looks good, and sanguard certainly look good.

Cheers,

Ashen

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

You can at any rate get better and/or cheaper AT weaponry on most other squads, so it's always worth considering using them without pistols I think.

 

I disagree. Every jump unit that can take melta should. If you have to rely upon another unit to get the job done then your army has an inherent weakness.

 

G :)

[ancient god]

I think it comes down to your army philosophy (i. e. generalist power squads VS. less expensive mono-task squads). Eldar lists rely very much on specialist squads and seem to fare well, but I see why a more expensive army like BA should put more emphasis on an all-round layout.

 

I play in a much less competitive environment than you, BO, though. We're a mix of beginners, casuals like me and not a lot of tourney players at all, so we generally don't win or lose games because of non-optimised lists but rather because of mistakes made by one or the other. :) So I guess I'm saying that I think you are right but that it doesn't matter on all levels of competitiveness..? Maybe you can add your thoughts to that, I feel it's not really well though-out.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Its only 20 points for a pair of melter pistols. I am constantly amazed how often I see the 'penny wise' philosophy applied to list building. The power fist only costs 10 points - that is a bargain in my mind (if you want one). The Chapter Banner is pricey and I would only field if say the SG are acting as an escort to someone like Dante or Astorath.

 

G :D

[Brother-Captain Devlonir]

Its only 20 points for a pair of melter pistols. I am constantly amazed how often I see the 'penny wise' philosophy applied to list building. The power fist only costs 10 points - that is a bargain in my mind (if you want one). The Chapter Banner is pricey and I would only field if say the SG are acting as an escort to someone like Dante or Astorath.

 

G :D

 

The thing for me is.. you are paying for not only adding to the squad. You are also removing certain effectivity. A power fist trades the Initiative and the reroll for High Str, and the Infernus Pistols trades the best Bolter the Blood Angels have. Not to mention that you add tasks to a squad that otherwise has a very single minded focus: destroy troops in assault with ease.

 

That is why I feel it is a waste of points for this specific unit.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

Think in terms of multi tasking. The more tasks a squad can perform well the more powerful they are. Some squads are inherently one dimensional but its not the case with SG. The power fist is by no means that useful but you do get it at a good bargain cost... and like I said it looks very cool. Angelus bolters are okay... if you are in range to shoot them you are in range to be charged... they are meh versus MEQ. On the other hand there is nothing like cracking open a landraider with a red hot close range melta pistol shot then killing all the occupants on the charge. I play against A LOT of mech - I would never field the squad without those melta pistols.

 

G :)

[Mezkh]

I disagree and think the Sangguard are inherently one-dimensional. You can add more tasks to them, but generally the opportunity cost is too high.

 

Ten points for a melta pistol gets you a superior Meltagun on other units in the list. That's quite a simplification, but there really are other better places to spend the points on in a Blood Angels list, where points are always tight due to the premiums we pay.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

I dont find meltaguns to be superior to melter pistols when you field them in jump infantry. Its not a problem with the precise DoA deepstrike to place the model with the melter pistol on the outer ring and be in half range. If you jumping in over cover you should also generally be able to place these models at 1/2 range as well. The melter pistols are also handy for dropping a couple of wounds on big scary stuff like Trygons before charging them. Points are tight but not that tight - it is all about having the right priorities and optimization. I remember games where my SG flew around dropping wave serpents with their melter pistols... it was very helpful.

 

G :)

[Deus_Sanguinius]

I take my Sanguinary Guard with Chapter Banner (must-have), 1 Fist and 1 Infernus. Main task for them is to deal with infantry but it is good to have the fist/ pistol for just in case. And it looks so cool.^^ With more upgrades they become to expensive for me. Death Masks are not worth there points in my opinion.

[Ebsolom]

I run mine with 1x Powerfist, 1x Infernus pistol and Chapter Banner. Then again I hardly use them being more of a DC type of fellow B)

[Plague Angel]

Having never run them before, I do think that 1 fist, 1 infernus, and banner is what I would try out when I eventually do.

[BLACK BLΠFLY]

That's cool. We all have our own ways that we like for how we play BA. A squad of stripped down basic SG jumping out from behind a rhino wall with a Priest in tow can wreck stuff. We all want to share our thoughts. That is what this forum is all about. I'm passionate about how I play my BA... I think we all are honestly - and that is very cool.

 

: )

 

G

[grazer]

What's the consensus on plasma in the squad? We know the SG are built to drop infantry, and as BO said, taking a wound off a scary unit with shooting before charging is nice. By that logic, the longer range, AP2 St7 plasma pistol would be a nice addition to the squad... but Get's Hot would be a downer on a 50+ point model.

[Plague Angel]

My own personal theory-hammer: if I was using a priest along with the Sanguard squad, I'd trust the FNP to counteract the Get's Hot. The S7 AP2 is still good against infantry, and has a higher range; the infernus pistol would only be more useful against tanks.

 

Without a priest, I'd be more inclined for the infernus juuuuuuust in case.

[Brother Captain Kezef]

I've been gradualy veering away from dropping SG in Deep strike unless it's the squad led by Dante. I put a squad in a stormraven, nail a furiois to the back and go in hard and fast till I'm in strike range. Then you do a nice 12 inch move to target, drop the SG and the dread, charge and smile.

[captain Mungo]

My thoughts on plasma pistols for the Sang guard is that the only things it does better than inferno pistol is the range, and with a vulnerable unit like the sang guard you don't want to be in the 7-12" range just to get a shot off since you cant charge the target and in all likelihood will get charged yourself shortly thereafter. So in my mind plasma is definitely out.

 

But to inferno pistol or not... I'm leaning towards them already being bloated points wise as is and that those 10 points not only gains me a meltashot but looses me a nice bolter, but I also play a lot of mech and being able to open their own cans valuable. Though I know the folly of relying on the 1 meltashot to save the day so if I go inferno Ill be taking two.

[DV8]

Keep in mind also that how many units of Sanguinary Guard - and whether they are accents to a list, or a part of the core list itself - will change how you equip them.

 

A more hybrid or "mixed" Blood Angels army that fields a unit of Sanguinary guard on top of their other units will have less need for some of the more specialized equipment than, say, a pure Sanguinary Guard army as an extreme example.

 

I run a pure Sanguinary Guard army, and so my only option for knocking out tanks and monsters are the IPs, Plasma Pistols, and Fists on my squads. Which means I have no choice but to load up on that equipment. Another player who takes a unit of Sanguinary Guard simply as an accent to an army (for fluff, aesthetics, or actual effectiveness) may have less need for the same equipment.

 

In regards to the original question then, are they worth their weight? I'd give two answers:

 

In a pure Sanguinary Guard army? Yes. Yes they are. Not simply because they're the only unit you have, but when your army is nothing but a wall of 2+ save jump infantry flitting from cover to cover, Sanguinary Guard are intimidating as hell.

 

In a more mixed army? No, they're not. Other units can do what Sanguinary Guard do just as effectively, with other added benefits (ability to absorb casualties, wider variety of gear, etc.). Can Sanguinary Guard be effective in a mixed army? Yes, but they're also much harder to incorporate in and utilize because, without expenditure on points for equipment, they're a very niche unit. Spending the points for Fists or IPs or Plasmas to make the more utilitarian makes them much more expensive than another equivalent unit (say Assault or Vanguard squad) that can probably do that utilitarian role better.

 

 

DV8