2000AD Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Hi all..... first time poster, very, very long time fan of the genre (still got my Lost and the Damned and Slaves to Darkness!) My thoughts on the HH series so far... 1) Very good overall 2) Fulgrim is the best so far 3) Largely disappointed by 'Prospero Burns' 4) 'Legion' was a real 'read it the 1st time - not all that'...... 'read it the second time - absolutely loved it' kinda book!! I could go on but the one major thing that has been disappointing so far is the lack of information about the contact between the Chaos gods themselves and the Primarchs. In the fluff it says that Magnus swore loyalty to Tzeentch and was whisked away...... but this wasnt mentioned in 'Thousand Sons'. It wouldve been good to hear about Mortarion's and Angron's actual first contact with Nurgle and Khorne - where they swore their loyalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 Mortarion doesn't even know about Nurgle yet as far as I'm aware. The DG connection for Nurgle is Typhon and he hasn't sworn allegiance yet. I don't think Angry Ron knows about Khorne either. Personally I found Legion to be more like Sixth Sense or Unbreakable. It relies on the twist at the end, after that the surprise is gone and it needs to stand up on its own for repeat reads/viewings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypher441 Posted January 20, 2011 Share Posted January 20, 2011 1. Yeah, overall the series is a good read, not a challenging one but good if you know what to expect, at least from my point of view, 2. I personally rank Fulgrim lower down my list, I'm just not a fan of GM, Horus Rising is still my favourite. 3. So was I, sort of. More like I found it difficult to read, it wasn't that it was confusing, I just found it odd in some places and the dialogue between characters (especially the SW) was just a bit straightforward and simplistic. The liberty taken with the established fluff and the existing HH timeline irked me a bit. Honestly the book would have been better if it hadn't been called 'Prospero Burns' and marketed as the other side to the story of 'A Thousand Sons', since the interactions between each novel were brief at best. Things like the Primarch's loyalty to their associated Chaos Powers will liekly be explored in time. Like Ashe said, some of them do not accept the powers until later on in the Heresy, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 1) Agreed, overall the series has been excellent. 2) Best? Don't know about best, I have enjoyed nearly all of them for the different viewpoints they offer. 3) Have not yet acquired Prospero Burns. 4) Ugh, Legion. Did not find the twists believable or relevant in any way, shape, or form. Writing ambiguously to try and play up the "mysterious" aspect is just painful. Besides, unless alot of fluff gets altered the Alpha Legion are quite solidly traitors. You don't ally with Chaos and fight the Imperium for 10'000 years and then claim "we were on your side the whole time!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Besides, unless alot of fluff gets altered the Alpha Legion are quite solidly traitors. You don't ally with Chaos and fight the Imperium for 10'000 years and then claim "we were on your side the whole time!" When did they ever claim that outside of the Heresy? Besides, having (one of) your Primarch(s) murdered would probably have altered their motive significantly in any event. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
randian Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The DG connection for Nurgle is Typhon and he hasn't sworn allegiance yet. Are you sure? I thought Typhon was Nurgle's plaything for years or decades before he stranded Mortarion's flagship in the warp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Disagree with the thoughts in this thread re: Legion. Along with Horus Rising, it's the book I enjoyed the most in the series so far. Also utterly disagree that it was completely dependent on the 'twist'. Grammaticus was a cracking character, and the stuff regarding the Imperial Army was really interesting as well. And the Alpha Legionnaires were undeniably cool, interesting and well executed IMO. I don't really see anywhere where Abnett tried to use a "mysterious style" as a substitute for a solid and interesting plot. I mean the ending was ambiguous, deliberately, which I know some people hate in a story, but the book, and the Legion's fluff is much better for it. What are the other bits where he is meant to have fudged it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I could go on but the one major thing that has been disappointing so far is the lack of information about the contact between the Chaos gods themselves and the Primarchs. In the fluff it says that Magnus swore loyalty to Tzeentch and was whisked away...... but this wasnt mentioned in 'Thousand Sons'. It wouldve been good to hear about Mortarion's and Angron's actual first contact with Nurgle and Khorne - where they swore their loyalty. Hmmm really? When I read a Thousand Sons I read a being that manipulated Magnus. Does not Tzeentch have many names, it could indeed be the Changer of Ways. As for Motarion he falls to Nurgle when Typhon convinces Motarion to kill all the Navigators and then Typhon himself directs the ships through the warp. Now of course Typhon is a secret Nurgle follower and he sets up his legion. By the time the Death Guard return from the warp they are all diseased freaks. As for Angron I do not know, hopefully it will adress more in his own story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I could go on but the one major thing that has been disappointing so far is the lack of information about the contact between the Chaos gods themselves and the Primarchs. In the fluff it says that Magnus swore loyalty to Tzeentch and was whisked away...... but this wasnt mentioned in 'Thousand Sons'. It wouldve been good to hear about Mortarion's and Angron's actual first contact with Nurgle and Khorne - where they swore their loyalty. Hmmm really? When I read a Thousand Sons I read a being that manipulated Magnus. Does not Tzeentch have many names, it could indeed be the Changer of Ways. Yeah even though he doesnt specifically say his name its heavily implied that the entity he bargained with to stop the flesh change, then helped him break through to the Emperor and then offers him salvation from the Wolves is Tzeentch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashe Darke Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 The DG connection for Nurgle is Typhon and he hasn't sworn allegiance yet. Are you sure? I thought Typhon was Nurgle's plaything for years or decades before he stranded Mortarion's flagship in the warp. As far as I remember Typhon knew about Nurgle back on Barbarus. As far as play thing goes I don't know, I just know that he was the first DG to follow Nurgle. The rest is as Rahzbad said. Regarding the Alpha Legion, there is a possibility that the time went as followed; they failed, they just couldn't do enough to see Horus kill the Emperor. So now the Horus is defeated and the Imperium isn't crushed and what is left of the Imperium just saw what they did. There is no way they're going to believe they were loyal and that some aliens told them to help Horus kill the Emperor to avoid 10,000 years of bad times for the Imperium. They're stuck with what they did now, so whether this then starts their turn to chaos or whether they're stuck in a kinda limbo where they don't follow chaos and the Imperium that won't let them back in, I don't know. But they didn't return to the Eye, they don't live there, they are rarely seen and I don't think I've ever heard them being involved in a Black Crusade. For someone who allegedly follows Chaos they certainly don't seem to be doing a lot of Chaosy stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ubermensch Commander Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Disagree with the thoughts in this thread re: Legion. Along with Horus Rising, it's the book I enjoyed the most in the series so far. Also utterly disagree that it was completely dependent on the 'twist'. Grammaticus was a cracking character, and the stuff regarding the Imperial Army was really interesting as well. And the Alpha Legionnaires were undeniably cool, interesting and well executed IMO. I don't really see anywhere where Abnett tried to use a "mysterious style" as a substitute for a solid and interesting plot. I mean the ending was ambiguous, deliberately, which I know some people hate in a story, but the book, and the Legion's fluff is much better for it. What are the other bits where he is meant to have fudged it? In retrospect, my entire post was filled with inflammatory language. Editing it down to this since I cannot nuke it. I will respond when I have a better edited response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted January 21, 2011 Author Share Posted January 21, 2011 Disagree with the thoughts in this thread re: Legion. Along with Horus Rising, it's the book I enjoyed the most in the series so far. Also utterly disagree that it was completely dependent on the 'twist'. Grammaticus was a cracking character, and the stuff regarding the Imperial Army was really interesting as well. Couldnt have put it better myself. Genuinely think Grammaticus has been one of the best characters in the series. One of the most telling points of the whole HH in my opinion was when it talks about when Grammaticus meets the Emperor and they share a psychic connection....... Grammaticus saying "People dont realise what a bloodthirsty bastard he is..." It puts a very interesting light on the Emperor and his grand plans.... I never bought that the Emperor was the dignified superbeing out for the good of humanity. There is a real vein of psychopathy running through him IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 I think one of the great things about the HH series is the challenge to everyone's perception of the events that took place. Take the Emperor for example. In "present day M41", the only viewpoints we have of the Emperor are that of the Imperium (Veneration, Idolatry, Worship" and the enemies of the Imperium (Weak, False, Betrayer). Both are heavily biased in favour of each faction so it's refreshing to get past all that and to get an actual depiction of the man himself. After all for most of human history the world was accepted as flat until a few hardy souls went out to challenge that viewpoint. As a personal aside, I'm eagerly hoping for an Iron Warriors novel (detailing the purging of Olympia), a follow up to Legion (detailing how the Alpha Legion operated during the Heresy to accomplish their "mission") and obviously the Siege of Terra Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 21, 2011 Share Posted January 21, 2011 Well, the Emperor is the manifestation of our species. He has potential and knowledge beyond any other individual, but ultimately, he also reflects our characteristics - including a big murderous streak when threatened! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brannick Posted January 22, 2011 Share Posted January 22, 2011 Hi 2000. Using your schematic: - 1) Agreed. 2) Fulgrim is a really good book, but Prospero Burns was my favourite read so far in terms of my enjoyment factor and not being able to put the book down. 3) In light of (2) you know I am going to disagree here :) 4) Legion was a decent book. I still cannot decide whether I like John Grammaticus as a character or not, jury is still out. As long as the HH authors don't turn around and say 'the Emperor, previously known as Brian Harris, rules over humanity' then I will remain a fan of the series. Then again I enjoyed Descent of Angels when many did not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted January 23, 2011 Share Posted January 23, 2011 1. generally enjoyable 2. First 3 books were the best of the whole series for me The time lines are pretty screwed up after the 4th book but it's alright I guess. I enjoy learning more about the other legions :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eaglefists13 Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 The DG connection for Nurgle is Typhon and he hasn't sworn allegiance yet. Are you sure? I thought Typhon was Nurgle's plaything for years or decades before he stranded Mortarion's flagship in the warp. Yeah I agree Typhon like Erebus had been corrupted for awhile, as stated in the books (FOTE) Im guessing although it may never be mentioned in the books that the World Eaters or part of them are corrupted at the Battle At Istvaan, how else would Khârn still be alive after been driven over by a tank? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valkyrion Posted January 24, 2011 Share Posted January 24, 2011 The World Eaters and Angron kinda turn by default, IMO, and I'll be surprised if there is any real specifics given about the minutiae of their turning. Like; 'hey, guys, wanna worship a God?' 'No way!' 'All you have to do is kill things' *muttering muttering we do that anyway muttering muttering makes us stronger muttering muttering..Ok, deal!' Added to that the fact Angron already hates the Emperor and they just fall perfectly in the chaos blanket. Also, FWIW, Legion is by far and away my favourite book of the entire series. Fulgrim, Thousand Sons, Mechanicum and First Heretic make up the rest of the top five. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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