Company Veterans with Storm Shields

[shortysl]

Ok, the Company Veterans entry states that Veterans may take a Storm Shield (for 15 points after the FAQ) and GW have stated in the past that this is IN ADDITION to their pistol/combat weapon armament so my question is this; if a pistol and ccw grant an additional attack but a storm shield prevents an additional attack being gained (although this came into effect because the storm shield used to replace one of the two weapons) how do company vets work? The storm shield does not replace either the pistol or the ccw so do they get the extra attack or not?

[Chaplain Lucifer]

It will depend. If you use the storm shield you lose CC bonus. you use CC bonus you won't be able to use the SS save. So each combat you'll have to declare which weapons you are using. That's my take on it.

[Brother Styphus]

"A model equipped with a storm shield can never claim the +1 Attack bonus..."

 

They made it pretty black and white in the update.

[breng77]

Yeah no choosing what you use, equipped with means that they have one, can never claim, is pretty clear

[shortysl]

"A model equipped with a storm shield can never claim the +1 Attack bonus..."

 

They made it pretty black and white in the update.

 

Yes and as i stated above, that idea was originally put forward because the storm shield would replace a weapon. The logic behind it was that a shield could not be used as a weapon. My question was more centred around the double nature of the company vets entry. There must be some logic as to why company vets can take the shield IN ADDITION to other weapons as opposed to replacing one of them.

[breng77]

So they can shoot, and have a SS and a PW/Fist etc... RAW never means never.

[shortysl]

So they can shoot, and have a SS and a PW/Fist etc... RAW never means never.

 

Ok that's a fair point. Can't say i particularly agree with the RAW argument, it's not like GW haven't omitted certain rules before that unbalance an army (Black Templars bikers using two ccw's?), but i'm not here to bash. I'm also not here to gain an unfair advantage. It was simply a subject that has had me curious for some time now. Thanks for your time guys

[breng77]

I think it is as intended that you can never gain the +1 Attack as well, if they just wanted the storm shield to count as a weapon, they could have just said that a storm shield never grants the +1A for weilding 2 CCWs, or does not count as an offhand weapon.

 

In addition this line was already in C:DA, and so I am pretty sure that it was intended from the begining.

[krewl]

So they can shoot, and have a SS and a PW/Fist etc... RAW never means never.

Ok that's a fair point. Can't say i particularly agree with the RAW argument, it's not like GW haven't omitted certain rules before that unbalance an army (Black Templars bikers using two ccw's?), but i'm not here to bash. I'm also not here to gain an unfair advantage. It was simply a subject that has had me curious for some time now. <<snip>>

Just like our Ravenwing Sergeants who have a bolt pistol and a power weapon for the bonus attack.

Nothing new here, bikers can use 2 cc weapons (or pistol and CC weapon), like they always could.

 

Codex SM sergeants can not cause they only have the 1, either a pistol or a close combat weapon, which they swap for a fist/powerweapon/combi-something.

[Freman Bloodglaive]

So they can shoot, and have a SS and a PW/Fist etc... RAW never means never.

Ok that's a fair point. Can't say i particularly agree with the RAW argument, it's not like GW haven't omitted certain rules before that unbalance an army (Black Templars bikers using two ccw's?), but i'm not here to bash. I'm also not here to gain an unfair advantage. It was simply a subject that has had me curious for some time now. <<snip>>

Just like our Ravenwing Sergeants who have a bolt pistol and a power weapon for the bonus attack.

Nothing new here, bikers can use 2 cc weapons (or pistol and CC weapon), like they always could.

 

Codex SM sergeants can not cause they only have the 1, either a pistol or a close combat weapon, which they swap for a fist/powerweapon/combi-something.

 

Swiftclaws also get two close combat weapons.

[shortysl]

So they can shoot, and have a SS and a PW/Fist etc... RAW never means never.

Ok that's a fair point. Can't say i particularly agree with the RAW argument, it's not like GW haven't omitted certain rules before that unbalance an army (Black Templars bikers using two ccw's?), but i'm not here to bash. I'm also not here to gain an unfair advantage. It was simply a subject that has had me curious for some time now. <<snip>>

Just like our Ravenwing Sergeants who have a bolt pistol and a power weapon for the bonus attack.

Nothing new here, bikers can use 2 cc weapons (or pistol and CC weapon), like they always could.

 

Well that's news to me. I've been playing for over ten years now and bikers haven't ALWAYS been able to use two ccw's at all. If it's an ability that isn't exclusive to Black Templars then i stand corrected and apologise for my mistake. As i said above, i'm not here to bash and i'm not here to argue. I simply asked members of the community a question and appreciate all the feedback i've had.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

It really means never - but it means that you can exchange their chainsword for a thunder hammer and still keep and use the bolter, for example, which is nice.

 

In fact, as I read the entry, you could even give one veteran a pair of lightning claws instead of the chainsword, then add the storm shield, and finally replace his bolter with a plasma cannon...and you still would not get the +1 A for having a pair of LCs.

 

So, maybe that entry is a little confused overall. Sadly.

[breng77]

NO you would not get the +1 attack for a pair of lightning claws, as such there is not reason to pay for a pair of LC and a Storm shield.

[Wolf Priest Haelaeif]

That was what I said. Read more carefully before posting. Thank you.

[Master Avoghai]

Just like our Ravenwing Sergeants who have a bolt pistol and a power weapon for the bonus attack.

Nothing new here, bikers can use 2 cc weapons (or pistol and CC weapon), like they always could.

 

Well that's news to me. I've been playing for over ten years now and bikers haven't ALWAYS been able to use two ccw's at all. If it's an ability that isn't exclusive to Black Templars then i stand corrected and apologise for my mistake. As i said above, i'm not here to bash and i'm not here to argue. I simply asked members of the community a question and appreciate all the feedback i've had.

Actually forbidding the use of 2CCW on a bike has NEVER been written in a rulebook at least since the beginning of 3rd edition.

 

It was an addenda in general rules' FAQ in the middle of 3r ed. The codexes following this FAQ contained the mention (DEv3.5 and Chaos) but this was the only ones. Once 4th ed was released this rule was not maintained (but those codexes, still following the rules since they overuled the rulebook, whatever version). Pete Haines recognized it was intentional and actually, this limitation doesn't appear in v5 as well.

 

The only reason behind this limitation was purely "realistic". People used to say that a biker cannot ride a bike AND handle 2 CCW. This assertion was actually partial : the bikers doesn't mandatory stay on their bike every time. They ride to enemy lines then go down from them and fight. They can also stay on the saddle but put their feet and the ground and fight as a normal trooper. Models are not supposed to stay in the position they're modelled on the base.

 

Hence you can use 2 CCW on a bike :)

*end of the history of the rules session*

:o

:tu:

[krewl]

Lets keep the issues separate please. :D Makes for much clearer discussion.

 

1. Bikers are able to use to close combat weapons, as stated by Master Avoghai this has only been forbidden a short while, but it has somehow stuck in peoples minds (Probable cause it makes sense).

 

2. Several Dark Angel characters and models are allowed to use a lolt more things then they can hold in their hands. (Say a pair of lightning claws and a stormbolter are possible, but hard to model :D ). So yes there is (even in the FAQ) presendent for beeing able to use more then 1 twohanded or 2 1 handed wargear.

 

3. As vets have an extra option to gain a stormshield and 2 other weapons. However even if your combo would allow you (normally) to have a +1 attack, like a boltpistol and powersword or 2 lightning claws would, having a stormshield has the ruled effect of never beeing able to get a + 1 attack as stated in the rules for a stormshield.

 

Just hypothetically (no codex on me) this would not prevent you from say having a vet with a stormshield, a combibolter and a powerfist. You could even take a pair of lightning claws and a shield, but it just would net get you a +1 attack. but nothing prevents you from buying this combination of gear as far as the number of hands go.

[breng77]

The only reason behind this limitation was purely "realistic". People used to say that a biker cannot ride a bike AND handle 2 CCW. This assertion was actually partial : the bikers doesn't mandatory stay on their bike every time. They ride to enemy lines then go down from them and fight. They can also stay on the saddle but put their feet and the ground and fight as a normal trooper. Models are not supposed to stay in the position they're modelled on the base.

 

Actually the way bikers work you could always argue that they get off their bikes, otherwise, they should have hit and run.