"True" Flesh Tearers?

[Grimm Blade]

I have a question for anyone who cares to answer. I love the Flesh Tearer's fluff and would love to keep an army of them as close to it as much as possible, but feel restricted with their supposed lack of anything other than rhino/razorbacks, and whirlwinds. Which leads to my question. Can a Flesh Tearer's force field all of the Blood Angel goodies like landraiders, storm ravens, and sanguinary guard, and still be a legitimate Flesh Tearer's force?

 

I just feel that by being true to the FT fluff I would be seriously limiting the potential of the force.

 

I know this is a subjective question, but I would like to know what the general consensus is.

[terminatorAM]

back in the index astartes they had a 0-1 restriction on tanks only able to take 1 of something other than transports, but this was way before many of the units which now exist such as the storm raven and land raider redeemer.

 

they also had a greater chance of getting "free" death company which no longer applies in the slightest, there is nothing in the new codex that says they are so badly restricted as they have been before, and the whirlwind thing is from a BL novel which are mostly regarded as non-cannon and not to be relied upon if someone wants to make a "fluffy" list

 

i play a mech FT army with 2 of each rhino, razorback, and vindicator plus a large DC and other units

 

if you really want restrictions Id suggest making up your own since the old ones no longer apply to the current codex, but neither do the advantages

think of a personal rule like you can only include a heavy support tank for every 2 transports you have or 1 per every 5 DC to make it balanced the way the chapter is portrayed

 

otherwise there isnt really anything left viable to go off of so just have fun and do what you think would work best

[Plague Angel]

The Codex says the list is designed for the Blood Angels and their successors. It says nothing about limiting your choices because of your paint scheme.

 

Play what you like, be proud, and don't let anyone try and shame you. There are multiple paragraphs in the codex that you can point to, that should quiet them.

[Grimm Blade]

I don't want to restrict my force, that is the whole point. I love all of the new BA units and want to include them in my FT force. The whirlwind restriction is in the BL novel, but it is also in the Index Astartes.

I am glad to see that so far the consensus is that the FTs are not limited in their resources. Like I said, I am trying to get feel for what others think.

[Whitefireinferno]

It is a good question and one I have asked Myself One Problem is we have no real New Fluff to say what we have and haven't got Since the Old CA article of ours Says We have sweet :cuss all of anything apart from Razorbacks and Rhinos and everything else was a 0-1 so One LR ect and then nothing else from the list Tank wise.

 

These Days It has that Seth has turned Cretacia Into a Recruitment and armoury(I believe, haven't got my Dex at hand) And as New things injected into fluff the Sang Guard and Storm Ravens I would hazard a guess and say we have some. As Far as Sang guard I would say Like 10 tops and Storm Ravens I would say Less than 5 Other than that I say we Have enough tanks to fill our Ranks.

 

Also since the Index astartes days I Have always seen the Flesh Tearers as a Mechanised Force Don't really know why Just do seems more fitting to me. So I say Crush them under Steel Treads :D.

 

Heh we used to have Crazy good Dreads as well MMM Str 10 + 2d6 for armour pen

[Candleshoes]

I am glad to see that so far the consensus is that the FTs are not limited in their resources.

 

They are extremely limited in their resources, but they still have small amounts of everything, so, you can play with whatever you want and not feel bad. I made a post a while ago looking at the overall structure and what may be left in the Chapter.

 

I think the safest assumption at this point, taking most known sources into consideration is this: 4 under strength companies currently in the field with 1 battle barge and 7 strike cruisers , numbers subject to change, recruitment, black rage, and casualties. With safe assumption, they are likely fighting at 35% strength, after removing "The Lost" from the strength total, who are in stasis or being restrained on combat fields.

 

A far as a specific motor pool and other items, there is no reason why we cannot look at the Blood Angels chapter outline on page 9, and literally downgrade the numbers by 60-70%. With 6 fully annihilated companies, the numbers (this is all theoretical of course) would look something like this:

 

Chapter Master Seth

7 Sanguinary Priests and a High Priest

9 Sanguinary Guard and a Herald

11 Techmarines and a Master of the Forge

7 Predators

6 Baal Predators

1 Vindicator

2 Whirlwinds

4 Land Raiders (One being Seth's, the other being Carnarvon's) (The number is figured out by taking the normal land raider total for "normal" chapters, as BA are unique in their amount)

17 Stormravens

315 Chapter Equerries and Serfs

20 Scouts and 1 Scout Master

4 Chaplains and Carnarvon, High Chaplain of the Death Company

8 Librarians of various ranks, 1 Librarian Furioso and a Chief Librarian

4-20 Death Company (These numbers are inflated compared to other Sons of Sanguinius)

2 Furioso Dreadnoughts and 3 Death Company Dreadnoughts

 

As far as Rhinos and Razorbacks, there is no reason tho think that a good portion of the dead companies transports would have survived their former owners, which is why there seems to be no shortage of light transport vehicles bound to the chapter, in the range of probably 30 - 60 transports.

 

As you can see there are quite a few differences numbers wise at what Seth might have at his disposal, and just how few of them there really are. This makes for EXCELLENT game and army potential.

[Plague Angel]

It is a good question and one I have asked Myself One Problem is we have no real New Fluff to say what we have

 

At the very least, everyone has a Sanguinary Guard.

 

Candleshoes has an excellent breakdown of how even with limited resources, there's plenty left for a table-top army.

[Grimm Blade]

Great work candleshoes! You have been VERY thorough in you research, and I think that your reasoning is sound. If we were to follow your outline, then the FTs will definitely be able to field competitive forces that can stand their own on the battle field/tabletop AND with the fluff experts!

 

I really appreciate all of the replies. I am feeling better by the second about the potential carnage that my FT force will be capable of. I am also happy that the FTs can field all of the units available to the BAs without seeming to be unrealitic in regards to their savage culture.

[SamaNagol]

It is pretty irrelevant at anything under 200pts because you cant really include enough vehicles for it to be 'unrealistic' aside from spamming 5 Land Raiders with 5 man bare bones Assault Squads in.

 

Personally, as you can see from my blog, I've given them access to pretty much everything. Just make sure it looks like it has been to hell and back.

[Grimm Blade]

It is pretty irrelevant at anything under 200pts because you cant really include enough vehicles for it to be 'unrealistic' aside from spamming 5 Land Raiders with 5 man bare bones Assault Squads in.

 

Personally, as you can see from my blog, I've given them access to pretty much everything. Just make sure it looks like it has been to hell and back.

 

This is pretty much what I thought, I just wanted to see what others thought.

And I am assuming you mean anything under 2000 pts, not 200 ;)

[SamaNagol]

<_<

[Malus the Destroyer]

I mostly agree. Where as I can see our chapter not having the extreme high number of vehicles the Blood Angels motorpool has, our machine spirits aren't as prone to the "Black Rage" as our brothers are. I see no reason why equipment would not be recovered and salvaged. I remember a comment somewhere that Flesh Tearer gear may look derelict because we can't be bothered with constant paint touch-ups, but on closer inspection it was in pristine operating capacity.

Nox Noctis Semino

[Grimm Blade]

I mostly agree. Where as I can see our chapter not having the extreme high number of vehicles the Blood Angels motorpool has, our machine spirits aren't as prone to the "Black Rage" as our brothers are. I see no reason why equipment would not be recovered and salvaged. I remember a comment somewhere that Flesh Tearer gear may look derelict because we can't be bothered with constant paint touch-ups, but on closer inspection it was in pristine operating capacity.

Nox Noctis Semino

 

This is the notion I operate under for my FTs.

That notion was actually presented in the BA BL novels that everyone hates on all of the time.

[Vodunius]

4 Land Raiders (One being Seth's, the other being Carnarvon's) (The number is figured out by taking the normal land raider total for "normal" chapters, as BA are unique in their amount)

 

Actually the BA's aren't all that unique, the normal number is 20-30 Land Raiders (source: Insignium Astartes) - The Smurfs armoury numbers in the current dex are copy-pasted from the 3e dex, but the current codex doesn't list the actual contents of the companies transport pools so the 1st companies 7 Land Raiders are missing - which would give them about 6-10.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

We do all realize that this game spans 10,000 years of history and that the flesh tearers were not 12 guys in a beat up old rhino the day they were founded right? :ph34r:

[Grimm Blade]

We do all realize that this game spans 10,000 years of history and that the flesh tearers were not 12 guys in a beat up old rhino the day they were founded right? :huh:

 

LOL!!! :P Far be it from me to speak for everyone else, but..........................Yes, "we" do all realize that. :D

 

For me, the questions about the number of vehicles the FTs have are being raised because the old fluff from Index Astartes and the the not so old fluff from the Black Library talk about how the FTs resources are depleted due to attrition, and their suseptability to falling victim to the black rage, but there is no mention of that in the new codex.

 

I started the thread because I wanted to know which fluff everyone was now following, and if FT forces that utilized vehicles in the same numbers as the BAs were received well, or considered un-fluffy.

[BOBMAKENZIE]

LOL!!! :huh: Far be it from me to speak for everyone else, but..........................Yes, "we" do all realize that. :D

 

I started the thread because I wanted to know which fluff everyone was now following, and if FT forces that utilized vehicles in the same numbers as the BAs were received well, or considered un-fluffy.

 

Then your question is silly. Of course the fluff for the last short time is more or less the same. Of course they are running out of men and the knowledge to keep specialist gear running 100%. But that doesnt change anything for how you want to run your army is the point XD

 

Of course its fluffy it just comes down to when they are fighting. Why they are fighting and what you want to use. If there is one thing about 40K it is that you can justify anything in the fluff if you think about it. There will always be exceptions to the rule there will always be different things going on at different times.

[Grimm Blade]

LOL!!! :P Far be it from me to speak for everyone else, but..........................Yes, "we" do all realize that. :)

 

I started the thread because I wanted to know which fluff everyone was now following, and if FT forces that utilized vehicles in the same numbers as the BAs were received well, or considered un-fluffy.

 

Then your question is silly. Of course the fluff for the last short time is more or less the same. Of course they are running out of men and the knowledge to keep specialist gear running 100%. But that doesnt change anything for how you want to run your army is the point XD

 

Of course its fluffy it just comes down to when they are fighting. Why they are fighting and what you want to use. If there is one thing about 40K it is that you can justify anything in the fluff if you think about it. There will always be exceptions to the rule there will always be different things going on at different times.

 

The question is not silly :rolleyes: .

There hasn't been any mention of loss of knowledge regarding how to keep specialist gear running, in fact it is the exact oposite, FT gear looks rough on the outside but runs beautifully, it is only the asthetics that are disregarded.

And the fluff has changed considerably... Index Astartes = hardly anything except rhinos, razorbacks, and whirlwinds, and of course more death company than other BA abd BA successors ..........Current fluff = equal equipment and troop types to the BAs

 

I know that everyone is able to justify any build they want. But as I stated originally, I want to know what the general consensus is.

Just try to keep an open mind and understand that not everyone shares the same perspectives in regards to what is and isn't important about the little toy soldier game that we all love :P

[Candleshoes]

We do all realize that this game spans 10,000 years of history and that the flesh tearers were not 12 guys in a beat up old rhino the day they were founded right? :huh:

 

3,000 straight years of punishing worlds still loyal to the legacy of Horus, after the death of Emperor, probably didn't help their armory :D

[SamaNagol]

I have always seen the Flesh Tearers in a very similar vein to the Black Templars, without the resources.

 

After the Heresy they were the 2nd founding chapter made up of all the Blood Angels brothers who were driven past the point of rational vengeance by the death of their Primarch and lived to bring retribution and absolute destruction to the enemies of Mankind. They all had no regard for their own lives and would gladly sell themselves dearly if it meant the death of more heretics and traitors. All rational thought went out the window. Put aboard the Victus and let off the leash to the far reaches of the Galaxy where traitors and heretics still supported the dead Warmaster.

 

And this is why the Black Rage is so prominent in the Flesh Tearers, it was always so. The Chapter was founded on the Brothers who were far more effected by the psychic death knell of Horus' murder of Sanguinius which resonates within every Blood Angels descendant. They were always more 'disturbed'. Imagine the wrath visited on the people who not only kill a Superman's parent, but also their Grandparent. The sort of wrath that would earn them the most terrible reputation for for complete and utter eradication with no room for mercy or respite.

 

I just see them as a Chapter that does not stop to do such things as paint and embellish it's equipment. If it works then it is good enough to smite the enemies of mankind.

 

Over the millenia they will have accrued some relics of the Chapter either recovered by the Chapter itself, or gifted them for some great deeds of valour. And they will have Sanguinary Guard as laid out by the Codex, so not everyone looks like they woke up in a ditch after a night on the beers. But in general only the highest of high ranking officers would have much decoration on their equipment. Everyone else is going to be wearing hand me down armour, weapons that have tasted the blood of thousands of enemies and riding in vehicles that have been at the vanguard of countless assaults without any respite or repair save essential maintenance.

 

These guys need to look like they havent stopped fighting for 100 years. The complete aesthetical opposite to Blood Angles.

 

But that doesn't mean they will have just Rhinos and Bolt Pistols and that's it. Because what better to destroy the enemies of mankind than mankinds finest weapons of war?

 

/

 

As an afterthought, I would quite like to see some mention of Amit in the BA Horus Heresy book. In Hebrew the name means 'Friend' or 'Colleague' and as the overall imagery of the Flesh Tearers in my perspective seems to be that of Blood Angels far more deeply disturbed by Sanguinius' death than the others, I would like to see Amit perhaps a close equerry or member of Sanguinius' honour guard in the Blood Angels legion.

[d503]

I use flesh tearers for a 'counts as' chapter called the Emperor's war bastards. They have nothing to do with the blood angels, they are just crazy as they recruit from redemptionist crusades in the hives of necromunda. Te fact that their leader happens to be a frothy-mouthed nut bag with a huge chainsword is just icing on the cake.

 

As for the original topic, I limit my army to very basic equipment and mostly flamers as weapons because of the redemptionist theme. Don't feel though that limiting your army to canonical equipment is necessary though, it's really okay to play whatever you like. Sanguinary guard or the sanguinor in a flesh tearers army would perhaps be a little iffy, but if you want to play that way then it is entirely up to you. Hey, you could use a penitent engine as a fleshtearer mephiston, right?

[Plague Angel]

Sanguinary guard or the sanguinor in a flesh tearers army would perhaps be a little iffy

 

 

The Successor Chapters invariably maintain a Sanguinary Guard or Death Company of their own.

[d503]

Nothing like making sure the successor players can also buy a box.

[SamaNagol]

There's no reason not to have them, most of the successors are second founding so would follow the parent closely.

[Plague Angel]

There's no reason not to have them, most of the successors are second founding so would follow the parent closely.

 

Especially considering that, following the Heresy, there was only one single Sanguinary Guardsman* left (Azkaellon), so all of the Chapters including the BA would have to rebuild after the Second Founding split them apart.

 

*That's a term I've never used before, nor have I seen anyone else use it. I kind of like the sound of it.