WingsOfTheFalcon Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Any chance of a photo of the mini straight on? I can't tell from the angles but it looks like the arms might be sitting a bit wide i.e. throwing the proportions. No probs mate I will post one up in the next installment, you are right I think and it has been nigling at me but the problem is mostly to do with marine armour only working with heroic proportion. One of the things I did before starting the project was to make a series of sketches showing how marine armour works and the main thing it did was convince me that unless you make significant changes to the marine inside the armour or change the armour it just wont work, as a marine is physicaly altered to be bigger and to fit in to standard marine armour a normal human would have to shrink even further so I figured the bit that needed changing would be the armour. I realy wanted to make a diorama of a marine getting ready for battle putting on his armour and having his weapons blessed. But the lack of reality to the peice made it a project I did not want to work on :) , maybe if enough people are interested I will post some of my sketches and things like that. Would love to see the sketches! I think perhaps the blu-tack is not helping, as this will add width to the shoulder joins which won't be apparent when the model is glued. Worse case scenario you can always shave a bit back on the sides of the torso to pull the shoulders in and make it a bit more realistic. That said this is 40k, so realism isn't entirely mandatory! Another question/critique, I assume you've going to be doing some work on that helmet before you get to painting? If I was you I'd swap it out as that one looks to be a particularly bad mold, with some nasty gaps and molding lines. That said with your GS talent, I'm sure a few gaps is small fry! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 16, 2011 Author Share Posted February 16, 2011 Think thats pretty much what I had concluded although the shaving back I will probably leave as the main problem is how the shoulder joint is made and its relative lack of feasability, I realy need to spend less time reading books on anatomy as it will destroy my love of fantasy miniatures for ever :) . The helmet has the usual G.W huge mold slip running through the centre of it :) but I will fix that prior spray paint and is mainly just there to show eye level in photos, as a quick tip if you want to fill gaps and use Green Stuff then add an equal amount of Milliput to it and mix well before using then when it is set you can sand it back to a beautiful smooth finnish. I will have a dig about and see if its possible to get the scanner working to put some sketches up, may take a bit of time though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Sharp Posted February 18, 2011 Share Posted February 18, 2011 If you're having a problem with how a marine fits into his armor, I can't imagine how you handle Terminator armor. :P That sculpting is gorgeous. I'll have to try Vaseline (or KY) next time I'm doing robes. The smoothness that you've attained is the biggest thing for me. It's amazing. Phenomenal work, and to echo another poster, when I first saw it I thought it was a computer drawing for a second due to how sharp and clean it it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 19, 2011 Author Share Posted February 19, 2011 If you're having a problem with how a marine fits into his armor, I can't imagine how you handle Terminator armor. ;) That sculpting is gorgeous. I'll have to try Vaseline (or KY) next time I'm doing robes. The smoothness that you've attained is the biggest thing for me. It's amazing. Phenomenal work, and to echo another poster, when I first saw it I thought it was a computer drawing for a second due to how sharp and clean it it. Thanks mate very kind of you :) , I highly recomend the vaseline as it doesn't evapourate or pool you just have to make sure you dont use loads at once and clean it off between layers or before painting. Regarding the 'fits in armour' problem for fun I have been mucking about with drafting up sketches of a 'useable' mk8 power armour in a sense of what would it look like if it were real and also what would a space marine ( no armour with extra muscle etc ) look like for real?? I would love to post my work but my scanner dont like windows 7 :D oh well something for the future! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stroganoff Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Great work so far Sioka, very inspirational stuff. I haven't used vaseline, but I can recommend the water-based lube. I couldn't say which brand is best (I've been using Durex stuff) and I find it starts to dry after 15 minutes or so, but you can mix it with a bit of water to get the right consistency, and when you're finished sculpting just leave the miniature to set in a tub of water and it'll disolve any residue off the surface. And when you buy it, just be clear with the cashier that it's just for helping your mini tool slide more easily...oh never mind Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yodhrin Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I am speechless, incredible work. How long would you say you spend getting each new section of sculpt smooth? I know what you mean about the proportions. Do you know what's always irked me, other than the shoulders? The crotch. Seriously, you would have to dislocate your legs at the pelvis to walk in Marine armour as it's seen on some models. As this is a one-off, there's no hope of a tutorial, but do you happen to have any pictures from earlier in the project for us to steal ideas from...I mean, admire :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peacekeeper Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Wow, this is the most amazing true scale I have ever seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 Having looked at the picture again I think that you could balance out the model a little by bulking out the greaves a bit. Marine anatomy is depicted in different ways and I personally think that the broad shouldered gigantism approach works well. The main problem is that heroic scale minis are seriously off in terms of proportions, in order to get a human model to look right proportionately using a marine head you want to set them at around 42-43mm scale. For marines using the terminator body method you're using here I've found that about a centimetre across the shoulders is the best way to go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 The proportions are good to me. Astartes are very broad shouldered anyway and so nothing much needs to be done on that area of the armour, but the legs in a normal human are not very large although they are very strong. If you were to bulk up the body to the proportions of an Astartes the effect would be the same, the legs would be very muscular but would not be out of proportion to the rest of the body. So there is no need to bulk up the greaves at all. Saying that though, i feel the backpack is very overblown and would probably look better being smaller. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wicced Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 WOW, fantastic conversion, hats off to your green stuff skills :D i spotted a mold line on the helmet though, but i guess you already know and will fix it soon ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 B) Back again and up to my old tricks of sneaking around at night, well after lots of hassle and various swear words even some in Polish French and Italian it seems that the scaner just wont work on this machine. I have instead taken a few photos of the work in the closest work book to hand, these sketches only show a little of the bits I have been up to with various ideas they are mostly pencil work and are very rough. Depending on the response I may post some of the more detailed/finished ink stuff but we shall see how it pans out :pinch: , also I am using this as an experiment as I have no money for a new scanner. This is just to see how an ink peice comes out in photo, the drawing is of an Imperial Knight Titan again a rough pen sketch mostly for fun but it seems that when doing stuff like this I end up building it eventualy! Thanks again to all for the kind words and motivation..... sorry for being slack at the moment but I am finishing up work on two commission peices so stuff for me has taken a back seat for a bit. I should have more work done this week as I am about to start another sculpt based commission and can tag between the two :lol: , here is a head on shot with a ruler next to it. This made me smile as for the most part with this peice I have just worked from eye and as Doghouse said: The main problem is that heroic scale minis are seriously off in terms of proportions, in order to get a human model to look right proportionately using a marine head you want to set them at around 42-43mm scale. When you alow for the fact that my sculpt is in a wide stance position with knees bent if he were to stand to attention he would be around 43mm so pretty good going. Well all done here for now as usual I'm off to find ice cream and finnish watching Return of the King and more sketches of spartans. Ninja out :teehee: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugar-free Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 wow. let me paint him please Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 wow. let me paint him please Nope all mine sorry B) , but thanks mate very kind! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 The shoulders are to broad in that sketch to be realistic and because of that the torso is far to V shaped rather than slab like, you have the general idea though on the legs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugar-free Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 im sure i missed it in the first 2 pages, but what chapter is he going to be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WingsOfTheFalcon Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Looks really good, are the shoulder pads fixed atm? If you increased their seated angle so the vertical band were aimed slightly more towards the helm that might alleviate the shoulder proportion issues. That said, it's such an awesome sculpt that I doubt anyone will care too much. They'll just be blown away by the excellent standard of your true-scaling! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 The shoulders are to broad in that sketch to be realistic and because of that the torso is far to V shaped rather than slab like, you have the general idea though on the legs. This is a tough one and in regards to a normal human you are 100% right but we are posting threads on forum dedicated to the demi god like Astartes battle brothers :D , they are bio constructed in a painful and physicaly altering set of changes that would kill lesser men. During the process of becoming a marine and after the gene seed implant the biological changes cause firstly the growth of new organs and allow for the implantation of others:- Mucranoid - linked to the lymphatic system - this is a system of nodes that run all over the body Larraman's Organ - possible relation if not linked to the spleen - located in the upper chest Omophagea - complete new system implanted between the thoracic vertebrae and conected to the stomach wall - mid portion of the body just under lungs Occulobe - this is just a refinement of eyesight - most probably a stimulus provided to the brain to force it to use some of the redundant portions Secondary heart - a spare! - sits on the right side of the chest but very close to the centre forcing the primary heart to move to the left (similar to a fully divided heart) Biscopea - the first implanted organ is actualy a gland linked to the Thymus responsible for production of T-lymphocytes used in the imune system. The Biscopea is responsible for the release of special muscle building hormones and is linked to the Thymus to stop rejection (although this is still comon) and to assist in the acuracy of genetic compatability - chest cavity Oolitic kidney - linked to the kidney - there are two of these but they form a saftey net to the lungs and to the normal kidneys so there is one at the top of the chest cavity and one in the abdomen Premnor - second/pre stomach for the neutralisation of poisons - sits above the stomach Interface - a system of connectors linked to the motor nervous system for direct controll of power armour - located along the spine Haemastamen - again linked to the spleen - located in the upper chest Multi lung - a third, tougher lung for poisonous atmospheres works directly with the 1st oolitic kidney - centre of the chest Lyman's ear - inner ear replacement - inner ear Sus-an membrane - an implant to the brain making self regulated suspended animation possible - brain Betcher's gland - linked to the premnor and oolitic kidneys enables the marine to synthesize poison - linked to the esophagus Ossmodula - brain implant to controll bone growth and send signals for the Endocrine glands to produce chemical mesages for extra bone growth - brain Neuroglottis - enhanced flavour receptors - nasal cavity Catalepsean node - implanted to make the resting of one half of the brain at a time possible - brain Progenoid gland - these respond to the other implants and organs by producing and storing germ cells - neck and chest So with a list like this and 9 new organs to fit in to the chest even before adding extra muscle a marine is going to look a lot different. One of the things that makes our chest and shoulders the width they are is the amount of stuff sat behind the rib cage, after working in a morgue and seeing a lung sat in a tub in front of me :) you come to realise there is not much space for extras! In my marine body draft I have given the upper body a very gigantic size to allow for the extra space needed and also the extra muscle involved just in using a third lung, one of the things that is hard to draw is the relation of new muscle to the original muscle of the initiate. In some of my more recent work the sternum area of the chest is completely coverd with a new muscle Pectoralis Secondus, forcing the pectoralis majour out to the sides and working by extending the third lung like a squeeze box. Lots of the V shape in the picture is from the teres major and minor and the latissimus dorsi being visible from the front under the armpit, as these muscles are responsible for the strength of the upper arm in relation to the body they again need to be huge to lift things like heavy bolters. In all honesty the marine should be more disfigured than I have shown as muscles in the abdomen like serratus anterior are relativley acurate to steroid using body builders, these should be bigger but again it makes the figure look even more top heavy. I hope this sheds some light on the research used to get to some of the sketches and ideas, as with all this stuff a certain amount of artistic license is required to make any part of the 41st millenia believeable. im sure i missed it in the first 2 pages, but what chapter is he going to be? He will be a sergent from a devestator squad in the chapter Brothers of Isis (bright orange and black paint job) like this:- Looks really good, are the shoulder pads fixed atm? If you increased their seated angle so the vertical band were aimed slightly more towards the helm that might alleviate the shoulder proportion issues. Thanks Wings, the pads are just blue tacked in place for the time and i had considered the adjustment of the angle to cover the join more but as this is a problem seen in standard marine scale I am inclined just to ignore it and carry on. If I get the time to work up the diorama that I want more time will be taken in getting the arm/shoulder/chest fitting to be acurate but in order to do this even more changes would need to be made to the armour, its very much a case of 'got the cake but cant eat it' as for one peice to work another has to change. Well time for lunch see you all soon :) . ;) Ninja out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Oh yes i am very aware of that we are talking about Astartes but the drawing is definately far too broad shouldered even for them, it makes him extremely top heavy. I know that the organs that are added would need much more room to function properly. The nearest that i have come to see that comes closest is this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Pulsey/Marine_Anatomy_750.jpg As you can see the overall skeleton and musculature is very much in proprotion to the size. Notice that the musculature around the torso especially is much more developed and would be much stronger than your more V shaped torso. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Oh yes i am very aware of that we are talking about Astartes but the drawing is definately far too broad shouldered even for them, it makes him extremely top heavy. I know that the organs that are added would need much more room to function properly. The nearest that i have come to see that comes closest is this: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/Pulsey/Marine_Anatomy_750.jpg As you can see the overall skeleton and musculature is very much in proprotion to the size. Notice that the musculature around the torso especially is much more developed and would be much stronger than your more V shaped torso. :) Thanks Dinks, well thats a peice of art work I have never seen! Thanks for posting this it is very usefull do you have a link? You are right about this being stronger just lacks some of the space for all the organs but by extending and widening the upper ribcage it would be perfect and give us the barrel shape. The scapula and clavicle now seem a bit flimsy in the skeleton but the weak point is in the shoulder area and the void between this and the ribcage. I particularly like the way the abdominal muscles form a very bulky midriff, this gives a huge amount of core strenth and definatley loads stronger than my V shape. My only critisim would be that the teres major and minor are only just visible and some other way of adding strength to the shoulder would be needed in relation to the back and sides of the chest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Sure do! link here. To be honest, although this webby is a little bit concept the ideas Philip has for the skeleton and musculature are pretty much spot on. ^_^ My only critisim would be that the teres major and minor are only just visible and some other way of adding strength to the shoulder would be needed in relation to the back and sides of the chest. I agree on that, the Teres Major would need to be much bigger but at least these pictures give you a good idea on what an Astartes body would look like. At least 99% of it anyway. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xscottfergox Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 When i think of the body shape for Astartes Brock Lesnar always comes to mind and the above artwork seems to vindicate my thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinks Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yeh Brock Lesnar has a pretty good shape for an Astartes, just need to scale him up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sioka Posted February 21, 2011 Author Share Posted February 21, 2011 Yeh Brock Lesnar has a pretty good shape for an Astartes, just need to scale him up! Thanks for the link, and what a link indeed :) :) ! This is just what I have been trying to figure out for myself and somebody has saved me the hassle, out of interest do you know of any terminator armour pictures? Although by folowing this aproach its reasonably easy to work out how it would go together. What are your thoughts as to the size of a termie as Philip Sibbering states up to 9 foot in armour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doghouse Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Very nice work mate! You've pretty much got size spot on and that's roughly about the same size as I do mine taking into account the fact that most of the marines are in that strange also squatting down pose. Love that Knight titan, absolutely amazing! Philip's interpretation of the Astartes is very nice, but the increased size of the terminators without armour is very much something of his own creation rather than anything canon. You'd be best to keeping them the same size as regular marines without armour to be fair. He does post here under the name Philip S so it's always worth PMing him if you want to brain storm as he's a nice bloke. Truescale Terminator armour is a bit tricky but doable, the trick I found was to focus on building up the lower legs but try to keep the width of the chest roughly about the same size as the regular power armoured torso, maybe a tiny bit thicker. The upper half of the torso that goes above the head is another area I found making a little taller as well and it's from the lower legs and upper torso that you can give it a real sense of height without widening the torso to unrealistic proportions. I also found myself lowering the arms a little as well when I tried making mine to make it look more natural. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Styphus Posted February 21, 2011 Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well that site has some theories that are hard to believe, specifically his theory on the constantly growing marine, and how certain armor triggers this growth. Besides the waist, I think your sketches are much closer to the story's anatomy and proportion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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