Ace Debonair Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Hey, it's the Blazing Sons again. Good stuff. :D Hmm. Thinking about it, perhaps a different god would be better. After all, the odds are more highly stacked against them when fighting the forces of Khorne, and nothing speaks to manipulating their way back into favour for the slighted tribe, the same going for their bruised pride and ego's when dealing with Slaanesh. Chaos in general perhaps may be the best way to go, undivided and all. Anyone have anything they would add to the discussion to help the decision? It'd be greatly appreciated. Make my vote one for Undivided. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted January 30, 2011 Share Posted January 30, 2011 Undivided, with an emphasis on Nurgle cultists over Nurgle daemons, could get some of the same feel without nudging towards Exterminatus territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Apostle Thirst Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 I see no overarching problems thus far, save the fact you used the Iron Hands as a simple plot tool, but as far as issues go I am very sympathetic. Undivided is fine, daemon/god wise, just have a leaning towards corruption being used. You could even justify it by having the soul being corrupted as opposed to the body, akin to zombies. I will be watching to see if the lack of problems changes, however. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 Ok couple of things, minor update but what the hey. I'm working on the homeworld outline so I'll have that posted in the next day or so, or so I plan to anyway. For the moment, without a good enough reason either in the Sons character, beliefs or situation to justify the use of the 'Blood Claw' route for my initiates I'm going to cut it out. Self-contained companies are still going ahead for now as I like them and think they work better. They also feel more in character with the Sons, each company is in a way a 'family' or 'household' in much the same way many Saxon settlements were lead by the Theign and his household warriors. Definitely shifting from Nurgle to Undivided. Not only is it easier to justify for the Sons to take the world as homeworld afterwards, but it can cover a wider range of emotional responses for those within the erstwhile tribe that originally turned to chaos. I'll edit these changes into the first post when I finish the outline for the Homeworld section which as I mentioned above, should be done fairly soon. Any discussion relating to these points or anything else in the IA is welcomed in between updates! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Do you have a copy of the orignal star for the shoulder pad, and have there been any scheme changes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 I haven't seen that in a while! :lol: Unfortunately no I don't think I do have the original copy of the star that is meant to go on the shoulder pad. However, it's exactly the same as the engraved one on the kneepad. No there haven't been any scheme changes, but now that I look at it I think the engraving would look better on the older 'greaves' that are available in the painter, and that the red helmet stripe should be removed while the black loincloth should be a more earthy colour, similar to leathers and such from Firaxis. However, those are just niggles viewed in light of the current version of the Sons. Nothing needs to be changed, I don't want to be demanding just because I can. What you've pulled up and posted already is enough to make me rather happy Heru and I appreciate it. Cheers! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Haven't fabricated the symbol yet. EDIT: Also do you mean to have a devastator symbol on the other pad, rather than a tactical symbol? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 That's fantastic Heru. It wasn't meant to be a tac or dev symbol, it was meant to be a placeholder for some kind of saxon imagery or symbol, but I don't have anything to hand bar a couple of images in my album so don't worry about it. Really appreciate the effort there Heru. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 Instead of a general Saxon symbol, why not have personal heraldry for each Company Commander? That way you still get the Saxon imagery but also add to the Chapter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted January 31, 2011 Author Share Posted January 31, 2011 That'd be great, but I don't have anything that personalized or workable for that culture that could be used for it. I'm also not really much of an artist myself. The most I was going to go for would be some 'general saxon imagery' in engraving on the armour, the rest can stay as is because anything more specific is really hard to get done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 That'd be great, but I don't have anything that personalized or workable for that culture that could be used for it. I'm also not really much of an artist myself. The most I was going to go for would be some 'general saxon imagery' in engraving on the armour, the rest can stay as is because anything more specific is really hard to get done. Simple really. In background terms terms just make a mention of the use of heraldry in warbands/tribes/other on Firaxis and then all you have to do is find a simple symbol to use as an example for a bit of colour - literally just Google images :o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted January 31, 2011 Share Posted January 31, 2011 It's not perfect as I'm sure the points aren't in the right places (each point is supposed to be at 45*, but these aren't...). If someone else can make one with point in the right place pointing properly I'll use that instead of this. Edit: I may just try to rip the one off of the shield instead. Edit 2: Like so: Which do you prefer GHY, and at what angle?* * = As is now, 90* or 45* like the shield. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 the later one is fantastic mate, looks great. Yeah it is supposed to be on an angle like the shield, I think it looks better like that. Sorry so late but I fel asleep. :sweat: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 1, 2011 Author Share Posted February 1, 2011 Just bloody brilliant! :D Well done my friend, that looks fantastic! :P Thank you, rather a lot. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 1, 2011 Share Posted February 1, 2011 When you find a Saxon symbol to put on the tactical pad let me know and I'll add it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Cheers Heru. The problem is the general lack of actual Saxon symbols that I can find. Plenty of Celtic, Slavic, Nordic, etc you name it but the Saxons themselves seem a bit less solid. They used a runic script like the Norse, only that's already been taken by the Space Wolves, as with most northern European 'barbarian'-ism. If anyone could help me out here I'd be appreciative. Maybe I'm just not looking hard enough but I can't find much on the net. On the side of me doing some actual work myself, I've put up a rough Homeworld outline, not really much to it but a bit of a timeline but that's all I've got for now, if I start delving into the details too much I'll get lost like I always do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 2, 2011 Share Posted February 2, 2011 Pre - Heresy Luna Wolves crossed with Black Templars with a smattering of Iron Hands rage and uncompromising nature. Maybe it'd be better if you defined them on their own terms, rather than as variations of other people. Heavily dislike static warfare and long-range slugging matches. Why? * Sons feel severely disconnected from those they are meant to protect, Iron Hands seek to exploit this. Moreso than usual? Why? * Blazing Sons reject Iron Hands instructions, remove as mentors. There'd need to be some serious buildup to this. And a good explanation of why the Sons differ so from the Hands. I think the previous version's explanation may have worked better. * (Psychology behind rejection - Sons see Firaxians choice to fight chaos as fervently as they evidently are. Viable?) Fighting chaos demonstrates strength and purity. Therefore, it should be encouraged, not eradicated out of hand. * Discover Order of the Sun, integrate with chapter. Since the Order is blatantly Emperor-worshipping, would that not cause problems? * Cadre dumped at nearest human world, resulting in animosity between parent and successor. Chapter begins life as independent entity. This would be perilously close to a mutiny. There could be serious consequences. * * * Had you considered writing a FWIA? The format's a lot less structured, and I think that might work well here. You really need to get their personality defined in terms of who they are, not in who they resemble. If you could get a unifying theme or two together, I think that'd help a lot. The sun appears to be one. Any ideas for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 2, 2011 Author Share Posted February 2, 2011 Had you considered writing a FWIA? The format's a lot less structured, and I think that might work well here. You really need to get their personality defined in terms of who they are, not in who they resemble. If you could get a unifying theme or two together, I think that'd help a lot. The sun appears to be one. Any ideas for others? I haven't read a FWIA yet, but if I can get my hands on one I'll definitely consider it. Formal IA structure has thrown a spanner in the works for me in the past so it might be a good route to take. Thing is, their personality is pretty much defined in how I describe them, that you don't like. They are in their own opinion, harsh but fair. The Iron Hands have a psychotic obsession with the weakness of the flesh. The Sons hate weakness of will, the choosing of what they consider to be the 'wrong' path because you didn't make a better choice, even if that choice is death. The theme of the sun is mired in the Order of the Sun, because originally Firaxis was a windswept, rocky hell of a place and the Sun was one of the few life-giving qualities it possessed. I think that might have gotten lost somewhere. Over arching themes? I'd say the Sun, belief in choice and battle, nothing else. No art, no philosophy (bar those that are integral with war and death in any case), nothing else but war, constant and unending if they can manage it. Their core characteristics would be personal choice (their opinion of the right choice, of course), self-reliance and determination (in their prosecution of the enemy, as in it never ceases). On the battlefield they believe in the constant advance, using their superior abilities and equipment to push the enemy back across the war-zone. Brutal efficiency is the order of the day, but also the punishing of those that chose wrongly and betrayed the Emperor. On the Order of the Sun, yeah on the surface that would cause problems, however if they genuinely believe that the Astartes are the Emperors Sons, I think the two could coexist peacefully. Either that or I scrap the entire emperor worship and have their religion based on the Sun itself, or just a more space marine view from the get go. The summary is that I have the answers but lack some of the questions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 Alright, after browsing a couple of examples of FWIA's I've considered changing the format of this IA, but I'm going to make the executive decision on whether or not to do so further down the line, once the outline is much more fleshed out. The questions I'm asking myself (and you, really) right now are to do with Organization. Namely, I'm wondering at the justification behind Power Armoured recruits (I'm starting to think it's a bit silly in my case) and having ten self-contained battle companies. I like the idea of the latter, but I'm not sure whether using it is a bit of gratuitous, fake individuality when there are better things to focus on. To paraphrase Octavulg, Organization doesn't necessarily make your chapter interesting. While I get to work outlining the Organization as it stands right now, I'd like to hear peoples thoughts on the matter. Cheers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NightrawenII Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Alright, after browsing a couple of examples of FWIA's I've considered changing the format of this IA, but I'm going to make the executive decision on whether or not to do so further down the line, once the outline is much more fleshed out. The questions I'm asking myself (and you, really) right now are to do with Organization. Namely, I'm wondering at the justification behind Power Armoured recruits (I'm starting to think it's a bit silly in my case) and having ten self-contained battle companies. I like the idea of the latter, but I'm not sure whether using it is a bit of gratuitous, fake individuality when there are better things to focus on. Well, the clan-companies of Iron Hands are independent and self-sufficient, so there you go. It is fine, if the organisation is part of the character, not the character itself. As for the power-armoured recruits. Given the nature of your Chapter (the thunder-hammer-into-face so to speak), I would say they eschew the "lurking in the shadows" role of Scouts, instead the Initiates march into battle in full heraldry, ready to fight the enemies of man face to face, under the ever watchful Eye of Emperor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 6, 2011 Author Share Posted February 6, 2011 As for the power-armoured recruits.Given the nature of your Chapter (the thunder-hammer-into-face so to speak), I would say they eschew the "lurking in the shadows" role of Scouts, instead the Initiates march into battle in full heraldry, ready to fight the enemies of man face to face, under the ever watchful Eye of Emperor. That's pretty much my line of thinking as well, however, having you throw such a large part of the codex out just because 'it's charactful' is hard to do without proper justification. Don't get me wrong, thats exactly why I chose originally to have them as power armoured warriors rather than scouts, but I'm trying to think of an in-universe reason. On that note, I just thought that perhaps this could be part of some reforms brought in after the expulsion of the Training Cadre, though leaving the self-contained companies as a remnants of the Iron Hands influence doesn't make much sense if I go this route. I suppose that if explained simply as 'this is how they think', I could get away with it. Well, the clan-companies of Iron Hands are independent and self-sufficient, so there you go. Well since they are Iron Hands successors, this works well enough! :D However, as with the aforementioned rift between th IH training cadre and the chapter, I'm not sure how much of the parent would be retained by the successor, which is what's troubling me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heru Posted February 6, 2011 Share Posted February 6, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Donkey Kong Posted February 7, 2011 Share Posted February 7, 2011 However, as with the aforementioned rift between th IH training cadre and the chapter, I'm not sure how much of the parent would be retained by the successor, which is what's troubling me. Then have them stick around longer as the training cadre. Old habits die hard. When this is the organization they're used to, they're not going to reorganize to meet the Codex as soon as they get rid of the Iron Hands. I'm still a little confused on where the initial group of recruits is coming from if they have a humanitarian mentality with them, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Hunter Ydalir Posted February 7, 2011 Author Share Posted February 7, 2011 I'm still a little confused on where the initial group of recruits is coming from if they have a humanitarian mentality with them, though. It's not so much humanitarian, but a different view on the same subject. The world is in civil war due to chaos meddling. The Iron Hands view the Firaxians (subject) as weak to fall to chaos. (Remember these are the guys who kill civilians for not fighting when their city is invaded, or for just being afraid) The Blazing Sons however take the opinion that they are strong because of their will to fight their erstwhile brethren that have fallen. Yes there would be some grey areas in each of the camps but if the Sons rally behind a particularly charismatic captain (a good trait for a leader, by the by) then I can easily see a split happening. Then have them stick around longer as the training cadre. Old habits die hard. When this is the organization they're used to, they're not going to reorganize to meet the Codex as soon as they get rid of the Iron Hands. Thank you, I'll use that. ;) Heru, fantastic work there, it looks awesome. Thank you! The dragon print on the greave came out amazing. I'm so chuffed with that. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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