Deathwing Terminator Unit Composition

[Mattias]

Greetings,

 

What are peoples thoughts on preferred Deathwing Unit Composition for both footslogging and mechanised units following the recent changes to Storm Shields and CML?

 

Are you now including at least one TH/SS in each unit for the extra save?

 

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

[Phaeton]

I think, this compositions will be the strongest:

Assault group on LRC - Belial (TH&SS or Claws. Both variants are good, more playtests needed) + Termies (4*TH&SS, 1 HF+CF, Apothecary, Banner). Not such expensive as with assault cannon, very strong and very tough. My choice.

Assault group on LR, without Belial - Termies (4*TH&SS, 1 HF+CF).

I think claws is good only on Belial (5 ini), elsewhere old TH and new SS are better. Heavy Flamer is the most cost-effective heavy weapon for assault groups.

 

Footslogging Deathwing - 4*TH&SS, Cyclone, Chainfist+SB - the most stable and tough configuration.

[EPK]

I like Phaeton's compositions but I think I would still put the CML on the assault squads as long as price was not an issue.

 

I also still like claws on Belial considering in many situations he's throwing first. Suppose it's situational though. If he's not getting that initiative advantage against a particular army, maybe go TH/SS?

[Mattias]

Interesting, so are people focusing on assault based terminators even in footslogging units?

 

I had thought that the changes in composition would have been smaller and that a typical footslogging unit might look something like the following;

 

SB/PS

TH/SS

LC

SB/PF

SB/PF/CML

[Phaeton]

I had thought that the changes in composition would have been smaller and that a typical footslogging unit might look something like the following;

 

SB/PS

TH/SS

LC

SB/PF

SB/PF/CML

Mattias, when your deathwing unit will be assaulted by Mephiston, or Bloodcrushers, or A-Termis with claws, or Thunderwolfs, or Tyranid Warriors, your thoughts will be like this: "Oh :) .... why I bought all this useless stormbolters in exchange of Storm Shields, which can save my squad?"

Footslogging Deathwing has low mobility, so it can't avoid charges by mobile hth-units. So, Deathwing unit has to have enough toughness to be alive on that charges.

Storm shields solve this problem. And 3 stormbolters isn't a solution. Will you think so that 6 shots per turn is better than option to survive?

 

P.s. Minimum 3 SS for footslogging unit, or it will be too easy to crush it in hth.

[breng77]

The combo I see most often for Foot slogging/and what I am looking at running.

 

2 TH/SS termies

1 Cf/Sb

Cyclone/TH/SS

1 Sb/PW

 

This set up still keeps a little ranged fire, but still has enough durability to deal with most things. Though I have also looked at all Th/SS with cyclone. THe issue with that set up is that it is very rock paper scissors, great against marines/mech, not so great against Nids or Orks.

 

The TH/Ss build does well against elite HtH units, but poorly against those with alot of attacks (things like Orks, Genestealers, etc) These enemies are not denying your armor save in general, but are just which will cause failed saves, in this case the storm bolter helps alot more than the storm shield in that even 5 or 6 dead models then each model has 3 or 4 attacks, is a big difference.

[Phaeton]

breng77, power orks come on battlewagons, so SB may not realize it's potential before vagonned orks charge. And ork mobs come with nobs with power claw...

[Mattias]

Phaeton,

 

I can see your point about the defensive benefits of TH/SS against nasty close combat units, however surely it is important to retain some ranged capability with footslogging units as otherwise your opponent could just try to avoid the unit?

[Phaeton]

however surely it is important to retain some ranged capability with footslogging units as otherwise your opponent could just try to avoid the unit?

Mattias, that's absolutely true, and this ranged capability - CML on each footslogging Deathwing unit. Stormbolters aren't good enough to make something really bad to enemy, unfortunately.

Also, opponent can avoid one Deathwing unit, but he can't avoid 3-5 Deathwing units :D

[minionboy]

My main units has been:

 

TH/SS

CF/SB/CML

PF/SB

PF/SB

PW/SB

 

It has worked very well, despite not being 100% perfect for wound allocation. I keep the CML loaded up just because he's always the last to have wounds allocated and this way I don't risk losing my CF as much. It could easily work by sticking the CF on one of the PF/SB guys to take full advantage of wound allocation though. The 8 shots plus 2 CML shots usually is capable of softening up units before I charge in and hasn't disappointed me yet honestly.

 

My Belial command squad is this:

 

TH/SS/CML

TH/SS/Apoth

TH/SS/Standard

TH/SS

TH/SS

 

Pretty standard, gets the job done, looks rad and is very scary on the field, especially when I stick my chapy in there as well.

[breng77]

breng77, power orks come on battlewagons, so SB may not realize it's potential before vagonned orks charge. And ork mobs come with nobs with power claw...

 

Orks do often (not always) come in battle wagons (which will be targeted by your anti-tank in an attempt to make the orks walk), and nids never do. Though I think you will find that the Boyz will do significantly more damage than the Nob, to terminators with SS in the unit. The 19 boyz will kill on average 3 termies on the charge, whereas the PK Nob will only do about .5 wounds on the charge. In addition that PK goes simultaneously with the termies and as such is not as large of a threat.

 

I agree that avoiding Terminators firing missiles is tough, I don't agree that storm bolters are useless.

[krewl]

I had thought that the changes in composition would have been smaller and that a typical footslogging unit might look something like the following;

 

SB/PS

TH/SS

LC

SB/PF

SB/PF/CML

Mattias, when your deathwing unit will be assaulted by Mephiston, or Bloodcrushers, or A-Termis with claws, or Thunderwolfs, or Tyranid Warriors, your thoughts will be like this: "Oh :D .... why I bought all this useless stormbolters in exchange of Storm Shields, which can save my squad?"

Footslogging Deathwing has low mobility, so it can't avoid charges by mobile hth-units. So, Deathwing unit has to have enough toughness to be alive on that charges.

Storm shields solve this problem. And 3 stormbolters isn't a solution. Will you think so that 6 shots per turn is better than option to survive?

 

P.s. Minimum 3 SS for footslogging unit, or it will be too easy to crush it in hth.

Or you will be thinking, why did these bugger reach me?

I feel a list with to little firepower at range will suffer in more situations then the SS.

When charged by a big unit of Hormagaunts or orks the SS will not save you, but the dead orks/gaunts the bolters added will help.

All non powerweapon attacks? Your 2+ is as good as ever.

some units rely on powerweapon attacks and yes then your 3++ will help, but others rely on mass attacks making you take mass saves.

Cheap hordes will do that to you and then your 5 TH&SS termies will maybe not die, but even then they will be locked up in a CC they'll never leave this game.

2 attacks means 10 attacks on your TH's a turn, 5 hit, say 4 wound. Takes forever to take down a unit of 20-30 guys. With closely supporting units of deathwing (You are suppirting eachother right :D ) you can plant your TH & SS unit to take the powerweapon unit or mephiston or whatever, while your more shooty units support it by first taking down opposing numbers and countercharging after your TH unit takes the charge.

 

I feel you should have 2 TH & SS in a utility unit, to soak plasma/lascannons/etc. That wil indeed greatly increase your survivability.

More cuts into the shooty so much I feel you'll reduce overall CC just for durability against something many armies don't even bring. (Powerweapon CC attacks.)

 

Myself I'd go for:

Cyclone and Chainfist and Stormbolter

Storm Shield & Thunderhammer

Storm Shield & Thunderhammer

Powersword and Stormbolter

Powerfist and Stormbolter. (Debating on this sarge guy though, should he be a fist aswell or does the I4 have a place? Also some more wound allocations if I keep different models.)

 

Basically you'd have severall squads in a Deathwing based list so I'd have different roles.

Some at distance would have just 1 TH & SS for ranged firepower, to take the 3+ save for a lascannon shot on.

Belial command squad would be full TH & SS, the squads supporting him would be like the ones above. They'd be the CC anvil unit as I don't see them charging very often.

[RayJ]

Phaeton,

 

If you are having trouble taking out some battle wagons, your list might need some work. Sure with 3 in the list the opponent will likely have one pull through for a while, but with a relatively weak side armor, your support fire should suppress it enough for those storm bolters to make a difference.

 

I am personally running 2 storm shields per unit at the moment, though I acknowledge that depending on tournament results this month I may increase that to 3. I am running the command squad in full TH/SS loadout since I tend to deep strike them right onto the enemy. Belial has lightning claws to support then at I5.

 

I think we are giving orks maybe a little too much credit in this thread. Their numbers can be overwhelming at times, but the ork list is easily predictable. the real reason for including the storm bolters is against tyranids, so you can deal with gaunt screens and genestealers. It doesn't how powerful you are in close combat if the enemy keeps making new termagaunts and laying them out in a protective barrier to keep you from assaulting his monstrous creatures.

 

Storm bolters are also great against Dark Eldar. It's much more efficient to deal with Wyches in shooting than in close combat. they're not likely to kill much unless they get enough pain tokens and the charge, but they can tie you up like it's nothing.

[breng77]

All good points Ray, it is entirely possible for tyranids to use gaunts to tie up TH/SS terminators for almost an entire game (with a tervigon continually spawning more. I also don't think we are giving the orks too much credit, they are just an example of an army that TH/SS terminators would struggle against. I agree that the battle wagons are not that difficult to deal with at range, especially with deathwing assault making side shots easy to obtain.

[Phaeton]

Maybe I love Storm Shields so much because in our metagame there are A LOT of Marines and other, who love hth powerweapons, but very small amount of orks and nids? Having 3 or more SS for me is a vital option.

Ok guys, maybe I wrong and SB may be used rationally. Anyway, I think more playtests tell the truth.

[Isiah]

I don't believe that there is one killer set up for a DW unit as it depends on so many things. That said, what I'm working towards is something like this (*to be honest current models available are making the transformation slow :P ):

 

For Belial's squad

1 x cyclone/th/ss,

2 x th/ss [one is an apoth],

2 x twin claws.

 

For general purpose units within a larger DW force

1 x cyclone/th/ss,

1 x sb/cf,

1 x sb/pf,

2 x th/ss

 

notice that there are no initiative attacks here –– a totally unknown territory for my DW squads!!!

 

To put this into context, there are also two Land Raiders backing up my squads, or two tllc/ml dreads depending on which list is being used.

 

 

*But where I actually am with models available is this

1 x sarge pw/sb,

1 x cyclone/sb/pf,

1 x sb/cf,

1 x twin claws,

1 x th/ss

 

... so some way to go with rebuilding.

[EPK]

For Belial's squad

1 x cyclone/th/ss,

2 x th/ss [one is an apoth],

2 x twin claws.

 

This is what I used in my last game, loaded in a LRC, with good results. The two TH/SS were the apoth and banner. I also used Belial with DLC. I'm considering going all 5 TH/SS here though as they shouldn't have any problem with dyeing by attacking last and when they do hit back, they might as well do some major damage.

 

I only had one other DW squad which was also close to Isiah's:

 

1 x CML/TH/SS

1 x PW/SB

3 x PF/SB

 

Suppose I should have thrown a chainfist in there. With the CF and a second TH/SS it would have optimal wound allocation.

 

I was thinking about why some people don't want to put the TH/SS on the CML - is it because you figure the TH/SS terminators will be taking most of the wounds and very likely will be out earlier because of it? I was sort of thinking the opposite way that the CML should have it to last longer.

[breng77]

Maybe I love Storm Shields so much because in our metagame there are A LOT of Marines and other, who love hth powerweapons, but very small amount of orks and nids?

 

I think this might very well be the case, if you don't see armies that are good against TH/SS termies, then bringing the SBs is a waste. But for a balanced approach I think they are a good idea. I am currently running 2-3 SS in each of my termy squads (any less is not enough to be worth while as one failed 3++ removes all of your durability.)

[Isiah]

I was thinking about why some people don't want to put the TH/SS on the CML - is it because you figure the TH/SS terminators will be taking most of the wounds and very likely will be out earlier because of it? I was sort of thinking the opposite way that the CML should have it to last longer.

 

I'm torn on this too. There's a good argument each way. In the context of the squad though, there are other 'sacrificial' models that can go first. Elseways if the cyclone marine is without th/ss then at some point you'll need to choose who goes first (him or a th/ss model that is) :). The th/ss guys tend to last longer on average –– despite them taking the extra hits –– so on balance seem the better cyclone carriers.

[Lion El Jason]

I have been using a few different configs:

 

Shooty for standard LR Shooty list:

 

SB/PS

SB/PF

SB/CF

TH&SS

Heavy

 

I have been using this with DWA sometimes Deepstriking with a librarian:

 

5xTH&SS

Apothecary, CML

 

or

 

4xTH&SS

Apothecary

HF&CF

 

The two templates in one unit DSing can be a great surprise.

 

For assault DW you do still need some LCs.

Either belial and banner, belial and one terminator or 2 terminators are enough. Basically there are enough things you go before to make them too useful to give up.

I haven't done enough testing with assault to be sure though.

[breng77]

I think that the TH/SS on a cyclone depends on how many TH/SS guys you are taking, and how often you think that squad is going to be in CC.

 

If you are running only 2 TH/SS in each squad I don't think you want one of them to be the cyclone. This is because it is pretty common to take two AP 2 shots, I don't think you are going to want to put one of those wounds on the cyclone termy to use the 3++. If you are going with more than 2, then I think you give one to the Cyclone.

[Isiah]

Your point is well made –- I'd be looking at 3, 1 with the cyclone.

[Mattias]

So it sounds as though the consensus opinion is that two or three TH/SS are advisable in footslogging squads, with perhaps more in an assault based mechanised unit.

 

Does the SB/PS sergeant still have a place in footslogging units or his he being discarded and the SS relied on in place of attacks at initiative?

[RayJ]

I like using the PW/SB sergeant in my squads, especially for wound allocation, since he always starts off different. The I4 attacks are also really good against Orks, IG, and Plague Marines.

[DeathFist]

First off, i'm partial to having my Deathwing squads being somewhat specialized. Although capable no matter what their set up, CC should be left to dedicated assault squads and shooting left to squads with a more tactical set up. I personally have played at least 6 games since the new FAQ's came out, and have learned one thing.... A UNIT WITH ALL THUNDERHAMMERS WILL GIVE YOUR ENEMY A HEADACHE. lol. Seriously, i've used a Deathwing squad with 5 TH/SS and a CML and it has never failed to cause all kinds of hell. They... just... won't... DIE (At least they'll mess a few things up before they do). Every time i've used this squad, i've DWA'ed them right into the face of the enemy (literally less then 6 inches away at times). So, give'er a spin and see what you think. Hope it works for ya.

 

Greater demon's, Eldar of both flavors, and even other space marines (space pup's in particular) have all had a hell of a time dealing with them. Granted, a swarm of lesser foe's might prove to be a problem, but even then, your going to be taking a minimum 3+ save no matter what they throw at you. Your 2+ save should stop the vast majority of those other attacks.

 

Tactical set up:

1 Sargeant PW/SB

1 PF/SB

1 CF/SB

1 LC's

1 PF/AC

 

This particular set up allows you to take your pick when your squad takes hits via casualty removal, and also is a very well rounded squad in my humble opinion.

 

Before the new FAQ's came out, I never really used TH's, I'll admit. In fact, my usual set up for Belial's squad when their charging out of a LRC is as follows:

 

1 Sargeant LC's

1 LC's

Standard bearer LC's

1 TH/SS

1 PF/Heavy Flamer

 

Add a Chaplain into the mix of this one, and you've got what people around here call a "Death Star" unit. I'm a nerd, so what? Deal with it :D

Anywho, those are what I use, and I've gotta say, i've done pretty well for myself, even before the FAQ's righted a few key wrongs with our codex.

 

Later much