Deathwing Terminator Unit Composition

[HJL]

the next unit that im going to build is going to be 5 th/ss terminators with a cyclone. i played a game with them a few weeks ago the loss of wound allocation is a small thing compared to the ability to stand infront of plasma guns without worry.

[Isiah]

I like using the PW/SB sergeant in my squads, especially for wound allocation, since he always starts off different. The I4 attacks are also really good against Orks, IG, and Plague Marines.

 

Provided you don't already have a similar model in your squad already - swap the pw/sb for twin claws why not?

[RayJ]

The only reason not to is the loss of storm bolter shooting, which helps you against dark eldar and tyranids. If you're only worried about close combat, the twin lightning claws guy is going to be at least twice as effective as the sergeant.

[Bartali]

I don't think you really discuss Terminator unit composition without talking about lists as a whole, and their position in the list. In each list you want :-

 

Durable scoring units

Anti-elite infantry/mc's etc

Anti-light infantry

Anti-tank

Anti-transport

 

I don't think trying to tick all the boxes with a Deathwing squad probably isn't the way to go - they end up loosing their focus, and not being able to deal with any threat particularly well. Focus on a role (or roles, they can do at least three very well), and build the rest of your list around it.

 

To my mind Deathwing are never going to be great versus light infantry, and it's probably best to put that responsibility elsewhere in the list.

[krewl]

Just a small detail to add. I love how a FAQ update makes this forum discuss unit composition again where this used to be a pretty dead topic as all had been discussed (several times) already before.

 

Don't you just love the sense of "new""shiny"and now lets see how this works you get with a new codex or even this smaller update?

 

Now back on topic. I agree with what's said here in the rest of the thread since my last post.

 

I don't think you can built 1 deathwing unit to be a jack of all trades. As suchs I feel there is no default build as I think there was before the FAQ. Where my squads would have,

- Twin Claws

- Stormbolter & powerweapon (sarge and first to take any saves ;) )

- Stormbolter & powerfist

- Stormbolter & chainfist

- Assault cannon & Powerfist

That was my setup, 250 points round and the "command squad" would add a banner and apothecary.

 

Having the CML and stormshield updates changes the options we have.

Basically the Thunderhammer has a slight bonus over the powerfist, but that does not matter a lot, what counts is the 3++ save we can add to a unit.

This enables us to have a pretty decent shot at surviving ap1 and 2 shots, greatly enhancing the durability of the unit.

The CML has one great benefit, it allows us to reach out at 24+ inches and bring down threats, open transports for assaults, disable enemy mobility (Especially mech eldar for example would run circle around Deathwing if you failed to get them down on a drop.) Added bonus is the 10 points less it costs.

 

As we seem to agree this makes it possible for us to define a bit of layers in the units we'll use.

(This is for non landraider deployed squads

 

1 is up front.

Mainly this will be the Belial + full or mostly TH & SS termies with banner and Appothecary. (And a CML offcourse) 1 Twin claws would be fine for a total of 10 attacks at Innitiative to thin out whatever will charge you before hammer time.

High survivability, draws massive fire else they charge and stomp whatever they hit. So a fire magnet and hammer (litteral and figurativly speaking.)

By design they should be up in the face of the enemy as they have almost no shooting. Should they scatter badly or mishap top far away the CML will mean they are not useless all game. If they do not scatter badly the CML enambles a shot at opening a transport and in general adds flexibility in supporting your army by adding to the S8 shots on side/rear armour your army should be seeking.

 

2 Close Support squads

These should drop near the belial squad and thus should have a mix of CC ability and shootyness.

I feel they should have 2 Storm shields as dropping in close means getting some AP1 and 2 shots will be inevitable.

Again the CML's to add either anti tank damage or templates if there are targets in the open. Then 3 Storm bolters for another 6 shots (12 total).

A chainfist there for the AV12 or 13 walker and a landraider now and then.

 

The way I play these drop in mutual support locations with belial and you try to damage/stun/whatever stuff close to you which can hurt you hard.

That way you should overcome the ammount of damge an army can do to you in that board location, so that you have a decent force left your next turn to move & charge with doing the extra ammount of damage. If the enemy can not take out 16 termies in that one turn there you should be locking stuff in CC, tearing tanks a new one and splashing Montrous creatures over the floor. This usually means you pick a flank to try and make the enemy's army work against himself by having units out of position.

 

3 Ranged support squad.

You will have a home objective in 1/3rd of the standard missions, and objectives close to you in another 3rd of the missions.

So you will want at least one unit with ranged fire to sit on that home objective.

This will not be very different from the support squads but I am not shure on the configuration.

Either all shooting with a CML or with 1 Thunderhammer in there for a 3++ save in case of stray lascannon shots.

The all shooty will aid you more when you play the multiple objective missions, while having the SS will help more when camping way back on your home objective. If you need a few spare points these are where you drop the chainfist first.

If these drop from reserves they drop away from the CC fray (Usually) and add their firepower to the game.

 

If you play 5 or 6 squads I'd keep 3 in reserves for DWA, deploy the rest. deploy 1 close support was far up the board as possible in a good position, then 2 ranged near objectives/firelanes. Remember you don't have to start ON an objective, you can always walk and fire as you please, so be sure to be on the objective near the end game. Then drop Belial and friends and the other close support squad somewhere they can do damage and use the other 3 pairs of CML to make life as easy for them as possible. the last unit will deploy where ever the game needs but is firepower based to they can maximise their impact when they drop and remember that firepowerbased still means you have 3 powerfists, a chainfist and a powerweapon. So CC is always an option.

 

If you are a lucky !^%@$# and play 2000 points I'd take even more termies, as we can have 9 units. But I never play at that level :P so I never built lists for it in my head..

[Tanhausen]

On the other hand, some of us only play 2k games :)

 

My squad config had been standard for most of my games:

 

Sarge - SB/PW <- First to die UNLESS his PW is going to be useful in 1 turn ahead

Heavy - CML/SB/PF <- this is changing to TH/SS

Chain Fist - CF/SB

Claws <- you simply need the option to deliver SOME punishment at Ini 4

TH/SS

 

Before, I use to dump all the nasty wounds on the TH, even with the 5++ for ranged attacks, because he really didn't make that much of a difference.

 

Now, probably the "casualty" ranking will be Sarge, CF, Claws, TH, CML

 

Saturday is my first post-FAQ tournament and game...I'm all excited about it :P

[EPK]

Saturday is my first post-FAQ tournament and game...I'm all excited about it :(

 

Good luck!

 

Also, I think I like your setup for a nice utility squad -

 

PW/SB

CF/SB

DLC

CML/TH/SS

TH/SS

 

So in my list where I only run two Deathwing squads, I like that sitting back on an objective or slogging as needed and this in a LRC:

 

Belial, DLC

5x TH/SS (CML, Banner, Apoth)

 

I probably already said that? But now I'm a little more certain. And if I add a 3rd, it will be something like the first utility squad. If I need more shooty (in instances like facing DE as discussed in this thread), I'd drop the TH/SS for a PF/SB.

 

This thread has been nice, thanks all for the insight. Keep it up.

[skink]

Also, I think I like your setup for a nice utility squad -

 

PW/SB

CF/SB

DLC

CML/TH/SS

TH/SS

 

This is the configuration I wanted to start using, but I will probably put the Cyclone with the Chainfist as I envisage seeing lots of plasma and will be loading wounds on the Storm Shields.

 

Has anyone given any thought as to the best models to make the Apothecary and Standard Bearer? If your command squad is 4 or 5 TH/SS then this decision makes itself, but if and when I'm running squads like the one above I can never settle on who should do what!! I suppose it's worth noting that I don't always take a Standard, but the Apoth is an auto include - I suppose put this on the Cyclone, as you want both 'attributes' alive for as long as possible?

[Tanhausen]

Its a hard call, but I do:

 

Sarge PW/SB

CML TH/SS

CF/SB

Apo Claws

Banner TH/SS

 

The idea being, for me the Banner has been traditionally more important than the apo at CC so I want him to have a better invul.

 

Right now, I'll test that config, but maybe I'll give the apo the 3++

[breng77]

A can see the banner with the 3++, more for the following reason than the one you mentioned.

 

In a combat where your invul saves is highly important the Banner is more important. FNP is only good against units with non PW attacks, at which point you get your 2+ then FNP, against a unit with lots of PWs having the banner makes a difference and the Apoth does not.

[skink]

Fair, I can see that.

 

How about if you aren't desperate to fling the unit into combat? If they are playing a roving threat kind of role, does the ability to grant FNP become the more valuable asset over extra attacks? If so, I would want to keep it (and the 2 shot missile launcher) alive for as long as possible, which is probably easier to do outside of combat, no? I.e. AP 1 or 2 or S (Tx2) shots onto the SSs, normal fire everywhere else (which can be FNP'd), as opposed to nasties choosing which models they assault?

 

How about if points for only one are available? Though I guess that should then define the squad's role; Standard equals more choppy, Apothecary equals more shooty...?

[breng77]

I agree that keeping the Cyclone and Apoth alive as long as possible, so putting them on the same model has advantages and disadvantages. As does equipping that model with a storm shield.

 

If you take less wounds than squad members then having the cyclone and Apoth on the same model is definitely best as then that model will not be given a wound. As soon as you take wounds = the squad size or larger, any failed save on that one model is devastating. At the same time doing this also means that this model will always take the fewest number of wounds.

 

As for the Storm shield, I think that if you are taking 3 or more I would put one on the model with the apoth/cylone. If 2 or fewer than I would not as you will want to use that 3++ save against Ap weapons, and often won't take enough such wounds in shooting to put one on the apoth/cyclone, and you won't want to risk such an expensive/important model just to use that save.

[minionboy]

I tried out the Cyclopothicary last game I played. Breng makes a perfect point about losing the one model, in my case, he also had a chainfist. Aside from the amount you can lose from a wound, it is kind of silly, that would have to be one careful apothecary, otherwise instead of removing a gene seed, he could be blasting the poor marine to oblivion.

[krewl]

I agbree with Breng, you want the shields on the non apothecary if you try to skirt around combat, and also you want as many shots as possible.

So in this role I'd take 2 TH&SS separate from the CML apothecary. In this role the banner would not be needed as you'll avoid CC. (But I think you will want this unit to be your hammer and thus threaten in cc)

[skink]

I'm glad we all seem to be on the same page with this. Looking forward to testing them out next week sometime and wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a trick! Thanks all.

[Howloutloud]

I think that playing at "Jack of all Trades" is the best, at least for me. Of course I also plan on doing a semi mechanized list, so I pretty much have to plan around that.

 

I think taking squads with all 5 being Thunder Hammer Storm Shield is not the best way to go. So my assault based units will be:

3x Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield

2x Twin Lightning Claws.

For my list I plan on taking 2 of these units, one to be the command squad. The Banner Bearer and Apothecary will both be Twin Lightning Claws as I'm pretty sure I'll be taking off the TH/SS guys first when killed. Also of course there will be the mandatory Cyclones in each squad.

 

3rd unit will be a shooting based unit for long range firing. Pretty simple and what I really believe the standard shooting units will be:

Sergeant (base, no upgrades)

Cyclone w/ Storm Bolter and Powerfist

Storm Bolter and Powerfist

2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

The idea with this unit is to stay away, pop vehicles if needed, otherwise focus on killing troops. Its also meant to dig in and take objectives... Basic really.

 

4th and 5th units are based on the fact I don't have a lot of points left :D . I've also thought about the unit compositions and the more I do the more I like them:

Sergeant (base, no upgrades)

Heavy Flamer w/ Powerfist

Storm Bolter w/ Chainfist

2x Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

Basically these 2 units are to do one of 2 things. First, if taking on Hordes they are to Suicide Bomb. Drop right in front and fry them with the flamer and storm bolters. Secondly, depending on mission, to deep strike on objectives and hold them.

 

Granted I could be wrong on all of this (though I'll never admit it... NEVER!!!!!!!!!!!!) but this looks like it could be a very effective JOAT army. Granted it also has Belial, a second HQ and 2 Land Raider Crusaders and sits at 2000 points. I'm going to be trying it out against a vanilla army Monday and then I'll tweak based on what happens there.

[breng77]

For my list I plan on taking 2 of these units, one to be the command squad. The Banner Bearer and Apothecary will both be Twin Lightning Claws as I'm pretty sure I'll be taking off the TH/SS guys first when killed. Also of course there will be the mandatory Cyclones in each squad.

 

In many cases I think you will find that this is the wrong choice, for a CC oriented squad. IF you want that squad to be the most effective, any wounds done at between I2 and 4 that are not power weapon wounds are better off being placed on the Lightning claw termies because they have already made their attacks in CC, and will no longer contribute to the outcome.

[BoonKin]

I have been this with much interest, and would like to ask for some guidance/opinion for my take on the new FAQ. And sorry for hijacking this thread if I did so unintentionally.

 

I noticed the extensive use of the CML on every DW squad (assuming everyone here plays pure DW). But what do you all think if I swap some cyclones for the old AC or HF? Like the 1500pts pure DW list I am amending to as follows:

 

Belial (TH + SS)

Librarian in termie armour

DW Squad 1 (4 x TH + SS, Apoth w AC + CF)

DW Squad 2 (4 x TH + SS, 1 x HF + PF)

3 x DW Squad (PW + SB, PF + SB, CML + CF + SB, 2 x TH + SS)

 

In short, my question is: appropriate to arm all with CML?

 

Thanks guys :rolleyes:

[breng77]

I think HF could work if you are mounting your termies in a LR otherwise it is a poor choice. As for the assault cannon, it is decent, however, the fact that the cyclone is equally good, and cheaper I think tilts the balance, as does the ability to take Assault weapons with the cyclone. That is not to say that the assault cannon does not work or is bad, just that it is not as good especially for foot DW, who really need the long range firepower.

[krewl]

The AS has a slight power advantage against armour over the ML, but the ML has the following plusses;

 

- Longer range, between 24" and 48" the power of the AS is 0 <-- this is the main point as DW used to have issues with this.

- AP3 is always ignoring a marines save not only on a 6 to wound.

- S8 will instakill a normal T4 multiwound

- it is 10 points cheaper

- While still allowing you full assault or shooty gear (Which you can still shoot in addition.

 

I don't recall the specifics, but I thought the AS was better against AV10 and AV11, samish on av12 and better on av13 and av14, butthis is always within 24" off course.

Don't take my word for it though :)

 

As Breng77 said, flamers only if comming from a landraider and fully built for cc anyways.

[Bartali]

Very rougly

 

Chance of pen :-

 

AV10 - AssCan 89%, CML 89%

AV11 - AssCan 44%, CML 66%

AV12 - AssCan 44%, CML 44%

AV13 - AssCan 30%, CML 22%

AV14 - AssCan 15%, CML 0%

 

As krewl says though, the most important thing is range. In foot lists, you'll be firing a lot more often with a CML.

[IanSturrock]

I think it's crucial to consider the utility of the two as well as range. The AC is clearly better at hurting AV13 and AV14 vehicles... but it's still not the optimal choice for dealing with those things (better than the CML is not the same as optimal!). You want meltas for AV13 and AV14, really, or chainfists, and you need those things in your list whichever heavy weapon you pick on your DW squads. So the CML is pretty much straight up better, except *maybe* in a dedicated shooting squad (and I'm not sure of the utility of those).

 

Annoyingly I have at least 6 or so ACs modelled and only one CML! :D

[BoonKin]

Annoyingly I have at least 6 or so ACs modelled and only one CML! :tu:

 

That's how GW creates the demand for TH + SS and CML terminators..

 

I think the competitive trend for pure DW would be Thunderhammers and Cyclones, given how effective it could be.

 

My amended 1500 list for tournament/competitive play ;)

 

Belial w TLC

DW 1 - 5 x TH + SS w Apoth (CML)

DW 2 - 5 x TH + SS, 1 x CML

3 x DW Squad (PW + SB, PF + SB, CML + CF + SB, 2 x TH + SS)

2 x land speeder Typhoon w MM

 

So this gives 14 missile launchers and 2 melta shots on the move, with 16 TH + SS. What do you guys think?

 

Now I have to go get more TH+SS and CML termies :(

[Master Avoghai]

As krewl says though, the most important thing is range. In foot lists, you'll be firing a lot more often with a CML.

Of all the avantages krewl listed, Range is surely the less important for me...

 

Don't forget that the DW termis have DS + DWA... meaning most of them can be at range at turn 1.

And you can include Typhoon as well so you can have ML on the move at less cost...

[Bartali]

Don't forget that the DW termis have DS + DWA... meaning most of them can be at range at turn 1.

 

....and then your opponent moves away.

 

For an extreme example an AssCan based foot list is an auto-loose against mech eldar. They have the ability to stay >24" away from you while shooting, and crucially the AssCan's rending doesn't work on Wave Serpents.