Deathwing Terminator Unit Composition

[WhoaDirty]

How do the AssCan and CML compare when being used against hordes like Orks and Tyranids? I only have two CML models right now so I am running an AC in Belial's squad. I figure they are best suited for close up and the 24" won't be as big an issue as the other squads. Plus, it's nice to have a little variety in the squads IMO.

[Brom MKIV]

For an extreme example an AssCan based foot list is an auto-loose against mech eldar. They have the ability to stay >24" away from you while shooting, and crucially the AssCan's rending doesn't work on Wave Serpents.

 

Amen to that. There is NOTHING as annoying as a full mechdar list when all you have is slogging asscans. This is an extreme example though as I think the AC still has more all around utility, if only at limited range. That being said, at 20 pts the CML is my first choice every time.

[breng77]

How do the AssCan and CML compare when being used against hordes like Orks and Tyranids? I only have two CML models right now so I am running an AC in Belial's squad. I figure they are best suited for close up and the 24" won't be as big an issue as the other squads. Plus, it's nice to have a little variety in the squads IMO.

 

It depends on how spread out the horde is. An assault cannon against averages 2.2 wounds per turn. THe frag missile depends on how many things you can hit. If you can only get one or 2 models under the blast, its not all that good (2 models, gets you 2 wounds if you don't scatter off.) If you get 4+ models under the blast then You end up with 4 wounds if you don't scatter. That said I would still take the ML against nids or Orks. Against nids Krak missiles instant kill Warriors, Shikes and Raveners, as well as being better against monsterous Creatures than the Assault cannon. Against orks the ML is better at taking out Battlewagons at range, and instant kills nobs, ignoring feel no pain.

[shortysl]

I'm fortunate in that i play against a good friend who lets me use the updated transport capacity for Land Raiders, so my Deathwing run as follows:

 

Belial with Thunder Hammer and Storm Shield

Deathwing Squad with 3 LC and 2 TH/SS (one of these is a Standard Bearer). These are mounted in a Land Raider and are used to exploit any holes i blast in the enemy's lines.

Deathwing Squad all with Storm Bolters, 1 with Chainfist and 1 with Cyclone. These guys are held in reserve (not Deathwing Assault) and are used alongside a Tac Squad in Drop Pod to disrupt the enemy's response to my mechanised advance.

[breng77]

I'm fortunate in that i play against a good friend who lets me use the Space Marine Codex transport capacity for Land Raiders, so my Deathwing run as follows

 

Fixed, all land raiders except in Codex Space Marines only have Transport Capacity of 10 (BA and SW for example) so it is not the updated capacity. It is the messed up capacity they put in codex space marines.

[EPK]

I'm fortunate in that i play against a good friend who lets me use the Space Marine Codex transport capacity for Land Raiders, so my Deathwing run as follows

 

Fixed, all land raiders except in Codex Space Marines only have Transport Capacity of 10 (BA and SW for example) so it is not the updated capacity. It is the messed up capacity they put in codex space marines.

 

That may be true, but on the other hand, the moving fortress it is, it's ideal for a HQ. It's also the obvious choice for terminators who being so elite, make a great squad to accompany said HQ. Seems fitting the base LR should at least fit 6 marines in TDA. But I suppose things are balanced for a reason.

 

But I digress (off topic)...

[Master Avoghai]

For an extreme example an AssCan based foot list is an auto-loose against mech eldar. They have the ability to stay >24" away from you while shooting, and crucially the AssCan's rending doesn't work on Wave Serpents.

 

But :

1/ You don't play ONLY against mecheldar (I hope)

2/ I've never suggested to have an Asscannon in EVERY squad.

[Bartali]

For an extreme example an AssCan based foot list is an auto-loose against mech eldar. They have the ability to stay >24" away from you while shooting, and crucially the AssCan's rending doesn't work on Wave Serpents.

 

But :

1/ You don't play ONLY against mecheldar (I hope)

2/ I've never suggested to have an Asscannon in EVERY squad.

 

Obviously everyone isn't mechdar. But most armies can reliably keep out of range of a foot squad with a 24" gun. Situationally an AssCan may be better, but realistically a CML is going fire more and work against a larger range of opponents

[Jainar]

What I have been using so far is:

 

1 CML (PF and SB)

3 TH/SS

1 LC

 

Most of the time, the armies I face in tournies are heavy mech. Putting any stormbolters on other termies is just a waste. I leave anti infantry duty to my HF / MM landspeeders...

[Ezzeran]

Imagine my surprise, having dropped in on B&C for the first time in ages only to, lo!, discover we've actually had a FAQ done.

 

I may actually have to start playing again.

 

*sigh*

 

So has anyone done an actual analysis of CML and AC vs. MEq/GEq? I'm sure it was done somewhere on the regular marine boards.

 

And what's the metagame like these days? Who's playing what? How are the top end lists being designed?

 

Ezz

[syypher]

I'm no vet to DA like most people giving suggestions and debates but I would like to share how I load out my guys :)

 

1 CML + TH/SS

3 TH/SS

1 CF/SB

[Rage Is On]

I am no stranger to the way of TDA armies, I am however a new DA player. I have a Wolfwing army already, and a Terminator heavy BA army to boot. I was intrigued by the Dark Angels for several reasons, on of the main one's being the ability to field an all fast attack army. I have been scouring through this sector of the B&C for the past week looking for ideas and taking notes on how others build up there units.

My love of all things TDA and the strong urge to field many bike at the same time has lead me to the quite obvious Dualwing build(s).

 

My question for you, my brothers is this- What would the load out for a standard foot slogging five man unit of Deathwing be if I am running 16 termi's with plenty of Ravenwing back up?? I have Belail's unit TH/SS'ed out, including the Apoth and the SB. What do you think the best, or optimal buld for a hybrid style list would be. Do you think it should differ from a solid DW list?? Dose it need to?? I am building a all comers list, so tailoring a unit to preform against a certain 'dex is not what I am looking for advice wise.

 

End of Line

[syypher]

Actually after much thought I have decided on this setup:

 

Belial + DLC

TH/SS/CML

TH/SS/Apothecary

TH/SS/Banner

TH/SS

TH/SS

 

My regular squads without Belial are going to be:

TH/SS/CML

TH/SS

TH/SS

TH/SS

CF/SB

 

The reason for the majority TH/SS spam in the regular squad (non-Belial) is because my army is majority footsloggers. There are no Land Raiders in my list and my support for my DW are going to be mostly Devastator ML's and at higher points RW Bikers with Meltas.

 

With that said, please keep in mind these things that led me to my conclusion:

-Footslogging DW Termies are slow and no Fleet.

-Because of that I will be accepting the charge a majority of the time since they are easily out maneuvered by most enemies.

-A majority of most units we are worried about is @ I4 or higher.

 

So that led me to the conclusion that:

-Dual LC's is fairly useless against anything I4 and up. The point of it is mostly to cut down on forces before they swing more into you. I got to thinking most everything I play against except Orcs is going to be I4 or higher. At that initiative most everything will be getting to attack already anyways so he might as well just attack at I1 with everyone else. Unlike Belial who deserves the Dual LC's because he's I5, the regular DW Termies at I4 will not be "cutting down on enemies return attacks." Against Orcs, yes it's useful but that's really it IMHO.

-Another SS will help me spread wounds for AP1/AP2/Power Weapons even easier while keeping my CML safe.

-That extra SS over Dual LC's allows me to take charges better.

-Another TH is ftw.

 

 

Hope to hear any feedback or suggestions on my thought on this. I'm WYSWIG'ing all my models so any input would be greatly appreciated before I glue everything on tomorrow :P

[Ezzeran]

So, how ya gonna handle Tau?

 

Ezz

[Master Avoghai]

The reason for the majority TH/SS spam in the regular squad (non-Belial) is because my army is majority footsloggers.

(...)

-Footslogging DW Termies are slow and no Fleet.

 

I don't see any justification for applying TH/SS spam with this observations.

 

On the contrary I just see that your termi won't profit from the fact they're on foot and will lose a shooting phase every turn...

 

I'd undertsand a TH/SS spam with a squad made for embarking in a LR and charging while disembarking... but here... What if your opponent refuse H2H and saturate the field with shoots? (just like eldar and Tau are able to do)

[syypher]

Eldar and Tau saturating with shots...

 

vs Tau

If it's Tau I don't really have a plan other than to shoot templates of all my ML's as I walk forward. Including my Dev's. Remember I'm using those as my support. It would be helpful in this case to have some SB's since a lot of time they are on foot and not flying around in transports.

 

vs Eldar (Mechdar)

I don't understand how taking TH/SS is going to hurt me if my opponent has fast transports/AV flying around me. I already have a CML per squad. What other long range firepower can I take per squad now that I already have a CML? Stormbolters? If I take that then you know that's 2 different weapons for 2 different purposes. I fire my CML at a vehicle now my SB does nothing because it's useless vs it. Sure I can eventually fire it at their guys out of transports but vs Mechdar your main concern ESPECIALLY if your a footslogging army is to cripple their mobility. I'm going to be walking forward and firing my CML at their transports and AV until their mobility is crippled. By the time all their mobility is crippled I can probably already assault them.

 

 

@Master Avoghai: I think if your in a Land Raider that it would even be worse to just spam TH/SS. You have AV14 protection and will more than likely get to your destination quite unharmed. And you will be more than likely doing the assaulting so I believe if your in a LR that Dual LCs is better. If your on foot and taking AP1/2 shots to the face I believe spamming more TH/SS is the way to go.

 

 

Thoughts anyone?

[EPK]

I was just considering wound allocation for the 5x TH/SS unit.

 

Now, originally, I thought it would need to be allocated as such:

 

Apoth/TH/SS

CML/TH/SS

Banner/TH/SS

2x TH/SS

 

However, the sergeant has a separate profile and per the allocation rules on both page 20 and 25, I feel that's all he needs to stand alone from the rest. The fact that he has the same stats and wargear as the other regular TH/SS terminator should make no difference - he is always separate due to his unique profile (by name only in this case)

 

Am I correct?

[Brom MKIV]

Unfortunately no, because when armed with th/ss the sergeant has both identical wargear and identical profile. Simply having a separate profile is not enough because it is still identical.

[EPK]

Unfortunately no, because when armed with th/ss the sergeant has both identical wargear and identical profile. Simply having a separate profile is not enough because it is still identical.

 

That's the thought. But as always the rules don't seem to come right out and say that. They say "different profile" but don't explain further. They say "in game terms" but I have no idea what means. I guess we are to take that as the tile of a character is meaningless in game terms it only about stats, wargear, etc...

 

That kind of makes sense to me.

[HJL]

now i wonder. if i take a thunder hammer terminator in a squad he is really there to take the first wounds from plasma. he has the highest chance of saving against them so logically he should take the brunt of the ap2 and 1. he isnt much in close combat, lightning claws and power fists are as effective and more so.

[EPK]

now i wonder. if i take a thunder hammer terminator in a squad he is really there to take the first wounds from plasma. he has the highest chance of saving against them so logically he should take the brunt of the ap2 and 1. he isnt much in close combat, lightning claws and power fists are as effective and more so.

 

I think that is the conclusion we have come to. At first I thought that in a mixed group the CML would be the guy that should definitely have it as you would want him to last longer, however, as you stated, you want the regular TH/SS terminators taking those AP1-2 shots and most likely dying first so that he and other more useful terminators can survive for later in the game.

 

On the other hand, that shield works in close combat, so he might be striking last, but he's still a beast. Not to mention powerfist str. hits that also lower initiative to 1 until the end of the next player turn

[syypher]

Remember those THs of ours auto-stun when your charging with them :P

[BoonKin]

Just to share:

 

After a mini game today, here is how I will arm my squads.

 

1) Command squads

all TH + SS

apoth with CML

standard bearer

 

2) Close support:

4 x TH + SS

CML + CF

 

3) Support/firebase:

1 x PW + SB

1 x CML + CF

1 x PF + SB

3 x TH + SS

 

Seems to work well for me :)

[aekold]

I find it funny how everybody switches to the TH/SS camp. Don't get me wrong, the SS is very good but I think that the loss of the I4 LC attacks is overlooked.

 

Example: Last friday I played a game against a marine player who fielded 5 TH/SS terminators. The deepstruck on my right flank and ran a few inches. In my turn I charged them with 5 terminators of which 3 of them had LC's. 3 terminators of another squad charged them as well, one of them had a powersword. Before he even got a change to strike the LC's and PS cut down 4 out of 5 terminators. Now if my assault squad would have consisted only out of TH/SS I would have suffered some casualties, because we would have struck at the same time.

 

With this in mind I think that the best composition for an assault-orientated squad is:

2 terminators with LC

1 TH/SS

1 CF/HF

And the final terminators comes down to taste. Do you want more S8 attacks or more LC attacks.

 

Note that this only applies to a squad that comes charging out of a raider and I am not saying that TH/SS-spam is bad. Just that in my eyes the LC tend to be overlooked these days.

[Master Avoghai]

I agree with aekold.

 

Another point is the Anti tank ability of the squad. Sure S8 missiles and TH are good but against A13 or 14, it's often not enough.

 

IMO an all comer squad should consist of one SB/CF, one LC and 3 TH/SS... That way you have enough SS to absorb AP2 shoots and still a good AT capability.