Zeller Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 So I see today that GW has a little information about the SR posted on their update page. They mention that the SR has a pair of ramjets. Ramjets. Upon reading this I immediately felt like facepalming. In addition further down the lines they mention the vehicle uses it's fore attitude control thrusters to both hover in place as well as assist the aircraft in maneouvers. Going to the internet to refresh my memory of the ramjet I read that it can't operate unless the vehicle is moving at a high enough speed. In addition a ramjet typically operates and propels the aircraft at speeds of Mach 3+. Now look at the airframe and tell me with a straight face that this aircraft is aerodynamic enough to achieve mach 3 safely. Right, you can't. This leads me to believe that the Imp-Games Workshop-erium's simple cop out is it's built like brick and flies like one too. Another thing that is strange is that the SR's engines have fan blades easily seen from the front. Ramjets have no moving parts. Seriously, what the hell? Do these guys just sit around a table in a room full of inspirational pictures like Jeremy Clarkson's idea room from Top Gear and go with the first thing that comes to mind? This leaves me with some followup questions. 1. Is the Storm Raven strictly designed to operate in atmostphere or is it suposed to be capable of operating in a vacuum? - The article says it can operate in both environments but with a ramjet this becomes impossible unless the SR has stores of combustible gas that are injected into the ramjet to allow the engine to operate in vacuum. Even then the engine is exposed to the vacuum so how can compression take place in the first place? 2. What powerplant outside of a rocket engine would be able to operate in both environments? I know it's a game and GW does a lot of strange things in their designing and explaining but sometimes things like this just really really irk me. Sponsons, okay I've seen arguments for this in other threads, LR design, sure, trench wars are much more commonplace in the 41st millenium, but ramjets on what is effectively a VTOL? No. Thanks for reading and I'm looking to hear what has to be said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enzephalon Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 As a future scientist I clearly support your critique, but I do not expect "correct" concepts of future technology from a gaming company. Although I must admit the thing with the fanblades vs. ramjets show a high degree of stupidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shatter Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You're right, they're idiots. Further, ramjets have too many dependencies upon specific atmospheres, pressures and their gasses. You can't design one for all types. Vacuum? Ha! For this thing to work, it also needs fusion AG to assist the thrusters function in non perfect planetary (mass) environments. However, it could be made to work within the confines of human hab' worlds. If a human can adapt to life outside a suit, then that could be the design limits on the ramjets in which case it'd work as it presently appears in defense of human worlds. Which is going to be most of it's role anyway... yet it wont be particularly fast and agile for anything else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 All Space Marine vehicles are fueled by the tears of the widows of their enemies. This makes them immune to the normal laws of physics. In all seriousness though, the Raven is what it is. The spawn of the imagination of an artist. Not an engineer. The Caestus has the same issues. But both are certain "Space Marine-ish" enough to fit the visual style of the army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Now look at the airframe and tell me with a straight face that this aircraft is aerodynamic enough to achieve mach 3 safely. It's 38,999 years in the future, dude. How should I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitefireinferno Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Hey If my Family's old Jailbar ute could hit 260 kph then I can see how this can hit Mach 3 ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BLACK BLΠFLY Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I thought they were all powered by gerbils. :( Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SGK Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I thought it was Unobtainium, oh well if i can accept that Emperor titans can work i willjust suspend disbelief a little more for the little flying tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tabgoi Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I use squirrels personally. Gerbils have a tendency to die when exposed to environments that are best described as lacking oxygen. Squirrels however seem to survive just about anywhere. You want to move normal speed give em some walnuts or regular peanuts. You want some serious speed I tend to throw em honey roasted peanuts or candied peacans. You can get some serious speed out of them when they have a serious sugar buzz. Actually I have a Mazda 323 when I was in highschool that I paid cash for. It had this little recessed area next to the actual intake for gas that held quite a bit of stuff and was easy to clean. I kept telling people my car actually was powered by squirrels, and I threw people off because not one of my friends ever saw me put gas in my car, but they had all routinely seen me put nuts in my "gas tank". To this day some of them are not sure. Sure it meant being carefull to always fill the tank before going out, but it was funny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Adams Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 My stormraven runs on the shattered hopes and dreams of little children. And their souls, cant forget about their souls... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evileyevirtue Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 My... god... GW writing up something that is technically wrong? BLASPHEMY!!! But seriously... these guys don't know what they're talking about when it comes to technical stuff. Ramjet just sounds cool. And the model was designed by someone who had an idea that he thought it looked cool (although I think it looks like an elephant with cardboard wings). Like anything designed like that would fly in the first place... there's just sooo much wrong with it. As for them being idiots... that's debatable. We're talking about a universe with space elves, psychic powers and anti-grav engines. I'm sure if you could find out how an anti-grav engine worked and showed how GW was wrong, you might have a case. Oh, did I mention 7 ft tall bio-engineered soldiers with acid spit who never have to sleep wearing hundreds of pounds of self propelled armor powered by fusion in their backpack? They spit acid... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leksington Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Stupid Answer (ask a stupid question...): In the future ramjet technology is able to perform extreme air compression even at low speeds. I think GW picked ramjet simply because the engine on the Stormraven happens to look like a Ramjet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gv0zD Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Now look at the airframe and tell me with a straight face that this aircraft is aerodynamic enough to achieve mach 3 safely. Right, you can't. I can't. I also can't call Thunderhawk aerodynamic enough to go through the atmosphere. But this is fiction. We have genetically-altered humans. And not bred in pods, but had their genes altered after they reached 8-10 years (even Elementals from Battle-Tech were specially bred in the pods, and not gene-altered after birth). Still, I like this fiction a lot, and I don not care if there are some "unrealistic" things. And, btw, it is 40,000 AD who knows what the ramjets will look like by then. :rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother-Captain Devlonir Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 And, btw, it is 40,000 AD who knows what the ramjets will look like by then. ;) Or even better: Who says what we call Ramjets now, will still be called Ramjets in the future after technology has been lost and reinvented as a religion instead of a science? Maybe they call them Ramjets because they saw a Titan ram another Titan's cockpit in with one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 Really digging the sarcasm. ;) Was hoping this would end up being more of a discussion or what not and not the traditional "well don't forget about all these other outrageous things in 40k" comparison thing. Not sure why you think it's a stupid question. A ramjet is a ramjet. If you change the design to have moving parts you fundamentally altered the design at which point it is no longer a ramjet. Now if the ramjet were to say have been updated as some say with provisions for slow atmostpheric flight and vacuum then it could be some kind of hyrbridized engine. You've got say chambers that during normal ramjet operation are one continous comparment from the front to rear of the engine. This would act as a ramjet after the craft has finished reentry. Given the speeds of reentry I'd figure the vehicle could tilt forward a bit so the high speed dive gets the ramjet going. As far as space one of the compartments, a rearward compartment in the engine, would be used simply for rocket propulsion. This way there is no jet/ramjet issue. Lastly, during low speed maneuvers below Mach 3 the front compartment of the engine is activated and acts as a kind of jet engine. When the craft is ready to go back to mach 3+ speeds it hits afterburner and kicks it. Of course this leaves the problem of the actual jet engine components in the way of the ramjet's inlet. The airflow would be severely restricted relative to a ramjet that does not have a jet engine in front of it. Anywho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentL Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 That your not counting for is that the Machine Spirit folds itself around the "Brick" creating an aerodynamic shape so that it can reach stupidly fast speeds. Seriously try not to include real world mentality. It makes little Blood Angels die everytime someone tries to apply logic and physics to a make belief game... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noodle-j Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Not going to give a funny or serious answer, but I think we should let people talk about it seriously if they want to. I don't like putting sense into 40k either, but I'm not going to annoy someone else by complaining about it in their thread. Don't want to make anyone feel bad, but we all enjoy the hobby in different ways :jaw: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fudblinker Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 I'm grasping at straws here, but maybe the intake over the turret is supposed to be the intake for the ramjet? The fan blades on the main engines could be used for flight too slow to power the ramjets, and perhaps some chamber on "jet" engines is used in combination with rocket fuel to propel this thing through space? Just a wild stab in the dark. I don't know if I would go as far as to insult anyone saying they are idiots for their lack of knowledge on ramjets. When it comes to most fiction of this sort the people coming up with it just go with the "rule of cool". Its sounds cool so that's what its called. This also goes down to people's suspension of disbelief. We can believe that genetically altered giants, who spit acid, and wear tanks can exist, but when you mess up a small detail it kinda throws things for a loop. For some people different details will throw this suspension of disbelief out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volcatus Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 If we're going to talk hybrid engines here, you guys really should take a look at the Pratt & Whitney J-58. If the Raven uses such technology, it would really need the adjustable cones at the mouth of each intake. Modding the nacelles in such a fashion to make them more "credible" wouldn't be hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Plague Angel Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Really digging the sarcasm. :angry: Was hoping this would end up being more of a discussion or what not and not the traditional "well don't forget about all these other outrageous things in 40k" comparison thing. Not sure why you think it's a stupid question. A ramjet is a ramjet. If you change the design to have moving parts you fundamentally altered the design at which point it is no longer a ramjet. I apologize, I didn't mean to be so dismissive of your thought. I was only saying that, most people playing 40k will not know what a "ramjet" is (the designers obviously don't either) — and, to some extent, with the "future technology handwave" always available, it winds up not mattering. Trust me, I have spent far too much of my painting time simply stopping, and staring at a hand I am supposed to be gluing on to a body, and thinking "Freaking chainaxes, how do they work??" Of course, when I see something I am knowledgeable about being referenced wrong, it irks me too. And it's cool you are knowledgeable about this: without this thread, I would never have known what a "ramjet" even was, or have been motivated to look more into them. So thanks for that. This is actually fascinating to me, seeing details of technobabble proven wrong — I am a great lover of science fiction, but science has always been one of my weakest areas of knowledge. But in the end, there will never be a satisfactory answer so we just have to go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zeller Posted February 4, 2011 Author Share Posted February 4, 2011 If we're going to talk hybrid engines here, you guys really should take a look at the Pratt & Whitney J-58. If the Raven uses such technology, it would really need the adjustable cones at the mouth of each intake. Modding the nacelles in such a fashion to make them more "credible" wouldn't be hard. That is really cool point. That engine is in effect the exact thing needed to fill the gap. Now all it needs is vacuum operation capabilities and bam! Maybe GW does look more subtley at reality than I thought. :angry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sanguinarian Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Not going to give a funny or serious answer, but I think we should let people talk about it seriously if they want to. I don't like putting sense into 40k either, but I'm not going to annoy someone else by complaining about it in their thread. Don't want to make anyone feel bad, but we all enjoy the hobby in different ways ;) ^^^ I agree! :lol: Really digging the sarcasm. :angry: Was hoping this would end up being more of a discussion or what not and not the traditional "well don't forget about all these other outrageous things in 40k" comparison thing. Not sure why you think it's a stupid question. A ramjet is a ramjet. If you change the design to have moving parts you fundamentally altered the design at which point it is no longer a ramjet. I apologize, I didn't mean to be so dismissive of your thought. I was only saying that, most people playing 40k will not know what a "ramjet" is (the designers obviously don't either) — and, to some extent, with the "future technology handwave" always available, it winds up not mattering. Trust me, I have spent far too much of my painting time simply stopping, and staring at a hand I am supposed to be gluing on to a body, and thinking "Freaking chainaxes, how do they work??" Of course, when I see something I am knowledgeable about being referenced wrong, it irks me too. And it's cool you are knowledgeable about this: without this thread, I would never have known what a "ramjet" even was, or have been motivated to look more into them. So thanks for that. This is actually fascinating to me, seeing details of technobabble proven wrong — I am a great lover of science fiction, but science has always been one of my weakest areas of knowledge. But in the end, there will never be a satisfactory answer so we just have to go with it. ^^^ That was cool of you to concede on the account of learning something new. We all bring something different to the table - LITERALLY!!! And believe it or not, we can all learn something new. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
V Dubbed Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do these guys just sit around a table in a room full of inspirational pictures like Jeremy Clarkson's idea room from Top Gear and go with the first thing that comes to mind? .... at least the SR doesn't have a mustache like the Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust did! In fact, now that I think about it, the Stormraven and the Hammerhead Eagle i-Thrust look alarmingly similar..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Yncarne Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 Are you going to believe the High Lords' propaganda on the comm-net? I have it on strict authority from the Mechanicus that the ramjets on a Storm Raven don't need to be aerodynamic. They don't move the ship at all. They move the universe around the ship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kassill Posted February 4, 2011 Share Posted February 4, 2011 So I see today that GW has a little information about the SR posted on their update page. They mention that the SR has a pair of ramjets. Ramjets. Upon reading this I immediately felt like facepalming. In addition further down the lines they mention the vehicle uses it's fore attitude control thrusters to both hover in place as well as assist the aircraft in maneouvers. Going to the internet to refresh my memory of the ramjet I read that it can't operate unless the vehicle is moving at a high enough speed. In addition a ramjet typically operates and propels the aircraft at speeds of Mach 3+. Now look at the airframe and tell me with a straight face that this aircraft is aerodynamic enough to achieve mach 3 safely. Right, you can't. This leads me to believe that the Imp-Games Workshop-erium's simple cop out is it's built like brick and flies like one too. Another thing that is strange is that the SR's engines have fan blades easily seen from the front. Ramjets have no moving parts. Seriously, what the hell? Do these guys just sit around a table in a room full of inspirational pictures like Jeremy Clarkson's idea room from Top Gear and go with the first thing that comes to mind? This leaves me with some followup questions. 1. Is the Storm Raven strictly designed to operate in atmostphere or is it suposed to be capable of operating in a vacuum? - The article says it can operate in both environments but with a ramjet this becomes impossible unless the SR has stores of combustible gas that are injected into the ramjet to allow the engine to operate in vacuum. Even then the engine is exposed to the vacuum so how can compression take place in the first place? 2. What powerplant outside of a rocket engine would be able to operate in both environments? I know it's a game and GW does a lot of strange things in their designing and explaining but sometimes things like this just really really irk me. Sponsons, okay I've seen arguments for this in other threads, LR design, sure, trench wars are much more commonplace in the 41st millenium, but ramjets on what is effectively a VTOL? No. Thanks for reading and I'm looking to hear what has to be said. At least they didnt name it Geoff. :mellow: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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