Post FAQ Deathwing performance at Tourney and my thoughts

[Jainar]

Fellow brethren, just attended an indie tournament today and managed to win it with the new Deathwing, which I had playtested briefly before.

 

Will give more detail on my thoughts tomorrow on the new Deathwing and how it dealt with the lists I faced in the tournament. Though it would be useful given the posts in this forum and also the Death Hammer thread in army lists... :whistling:

 

My list were 25 terminators with Belial, each armed with:

 

CML

3 TH/SS

LC

 

Three landspeeder typhoons with multi meltas and a chaplain on a bike.

 

Belial was present with Apothecary and Standard.

[HsojVvad]

Was looking forward to reading your thoughts. A bit disapointed that you didn't mention them. False advertising. B). I kid. Congrats on the win at the tourney.

[Jainar]

As promised, my thoughts on how the new Deathwing play. - 

 

The immediate thing I have noticed about Deathwing in both my playtests and in tourney play is that it plays a lot like Chaos Daemons – but with Deathwing Assault given certainty over the wave roll for the Daemons.

 

This, I feel, is a big advantage for Deathwing as you can be reactive to the opposing army / mission if you want to be or giving you the chance to dictate the rhythm of the battle.

 

Also, players who are used to playing against Chaos Daemons strangely forget that Deathwing Assaulting is quite similar in playstyle – opponents chose to go first against my army, the inital idea being that they could use their firepower to whittle those fearsome TH/SS termies. What happened was that I reserved everything – leaving with nothing to shoot.

 

Of course, this is a one trick pony that I don’t expect to last very long with Deathwing – but hey, I’ll take what I can get.

 

-----------------

 

Spamming Str8 Ap3 is the way to go with Deathwing. Mech is the bane of a foot, mainly CC based army and the only thing that makes Deathwing work are those CMLs. Then you have to supplement those CMLs with a firebase. So far I used three typhoon landspeeders. I have thus far not been able to bring myself to spend 20 pts per missile launcher for devastators. This, however, might change quite soon.

 

Str 8 spam worked well against the first army I played against which was a Chimera spam IG army. The first mission was kill points and basically I sat back and played the ranged game, popping the more vulnerable Chimeras and then moving backwards to my table edge. Don’t commit the termies unless you have to – it’s the Volume of Fire that kills them and Guard have that in truckloads when in 12 inch or less range – unless it’s the termie squad with an Apothecary ^_^.

 

I didn't think I had enough Str 8 fire power though... landspeeders got knocked out quite quickly. Devastators - starting to hear their siren call...

[breng77]

My question on your list is why a chaplain on a bike? He does not seem to be a good fit in this army. Otherwise congrats on the win.

[nicolo]

i've been working with a list trying to get ready for a 1750 tournie, running into a similiar issue about a support-by-fire element. did you give any thought/playtesting to dreads? right now i am considering 2 with auto cannon and missile launchers. keeping that 48" range playing the backfield, but i haven't had the oppurtunity to play it out yet.

[exsulis81]

I was able to use the "Reserve everything, and DS in for some hurt" a grand total of twice before EVERYONE at my local got used to it.

[bulley]

Interesting.

 

I was looking at Typhoons myself - but in my mini play tests they just got dropped so quick that I didnt think they were worth the hassle - especially at 1500 points (my general clip).

 

I've decided to go with a GK Hero + 3 bikes w/ 2xMG (x2 squads) - and 4 squads @ 1500 - upping to 5 squads @ 1750. The bikes add flexibility of deployment - can scout or outflank - outflanking I find also presents another threat vs mech where they dont particular want to be near the sides for easy 6" melta shots - but 2 far away allows the bikes to turbo on and get the 3++ and position for melta the following turn (and offer up more saturation, which is good) and possilby lay down a teleport homer in the oppositions deployment if you so need.

 

(The GK hero has hood/pyscannon but I am prob going to swap it for emp's tarot)

 

I do hear yah on the dev's - I think it becomes very much a logan wing army with better (more expensive) troops but lesser fire suppression. I am certainly thinking of the dev's myself. People will probably shoot at them as they'd be the only thing with 3+/4++ and can actually run ...

 

I'd love to see some reports and how/what you played vs.

[RayJ]

I don't agree that the list has lesser fire suppression than the Loganwing. Maybe by a missile or two, but they are pretty damned close. What it loses is the quick assault element of the Thunderwolf Cavalry. Basically the troops combine the hitting power and durability of Wolf Guard, Lone Wolves, and Thunderwolves in exchange for that loss of mobility. Otherwise the lists (at least as I developed in the Death Hammer thread) should operate quite similarly.

 

I'm interested in hearing how people are playing the double-wing stuff as well as get some reports of how their opponents react to it. It plays completely differently, and I'm not gonna look into going that route again until after this month's tournaments. I don't think the traditional run everything forward and deep strike your army on top approach works, as the army loses its close fire support if the opponent seizes. I think lists based around starting more terminators on the field will fare better. This lets you outflank the bikes and still drop a Deathwing unit in reserve to pressure the enemy a bit. The bikes should force him to the middle of the table, which should let that deathwing squad get in on a weak flank.

[breng77]

Yeah I think Deepstriking everything is a mistake. I have been looking at running 5 or 6 DW squads + bikes, Then If I get turn 1 deploying 2 or 3, and reserving 3, so I can DWA with 2 squads (more to get side shots than to get close with everything), or if I go second, deploy all the termies and Outflank the bikes. It really will depend on matchups, But I think trying to leverage a majority of your army from turn 1 is going to be key.

[bulley]

It has less suppression for sure - more over the course of a game - but it still has it (8 str 8 shots a turn @ 4 targets isnt huge numbers, but its fairly reliable) but the LW will have those 2+ units of fangs firing another 8 @ 4 targets themselves, plus then some bolter fire from the WG - and then LL from the runepriest etc.. but thats what the list is built around really. Its only lesser in the extend of its choices of targets and doesnt have the option to get tank hunter from logan! Its not THAT much less w/ devs - but I'd say the quality/versatility is lower. But thats not the point - it's getting to the area where it can put out reasonable suppression (wow I am using that word alot!)

[Jainar]

Well the point of the Chaplain was to get in a fast assaulty unit to get rid of vehicles (rerolling PF on the charge) OR to finish off squads depleted by shooting. He also works against super rock units giving rerolls to hit to one of my termi squads.

 

Anyway, sorry about the delay re: the reports - have been preparing for another tournament which I just attended this weekend with Deathwing.

 

The first game was versus Mech Guard - pitched battle, loot counters The usual parking lot of Chimeras, 2 Manticores and 3 vendettas. Luckily this tournament did not allow Mystics. I went with Deathwing Assault and parked Belial's squad plus 2 more squads in front of his Chimera wall. I then ran to spread them out. Weathered a storm of shooting, while my landspeeders took a few pot shots at the Vendettas and stunned a few of them. Next turn, did a multi charge and IG fell out. Other DW units continued to capture objectives and flinging Str 8 missiles downwind. Landspeeders eventually died but took 2/3 chimeras through side shots!

 

It was bloody but the command squad with FNP just survived shot after shot. The Chaplain hid until the 4th turn where he jumped out an assaulted vendettas! A win but quite bloody. Mech Guard are tough.

 

Second game was Dawn of War and C&C versus foot eldar with Eldrad. A World Eater list had underestimated the foot eldar and got crushed (!). Quite surprised myself but shows you that Eldar still do have tricks up their sleeve...

 

I won the roll off and let him go first. He then deployed Eldrad plus Wraithguard, supported by Guardians and reserved everything else. I don't know what he was thinking either. I DWA'ed three squads right in front of them. He fired everything and the initial three squads survived it pretty much intact. Next turn was multi assault and mop up.

 

Eventually it transpired that he trying to get me to get committed to attacking his base. Since my guys were slow, his two waveserpents could then decide to help Eldrad or turboboost versus my objective to contest. He didn't reckon with the toughness of three termi units!

 

Last game was versus 8 man jetseer council and jetbikes for troops. Two nightspinners!

 

The mission was to take five objectives and hold it. Every turn you hold an objective, you get a point. This mission was gold for Deathwing. Eldar had lost their advantage of mobility - so I camped on objectives close to my deployment zone and Deepstruck onto those that weren;t. Then my termies sat there while trading shots against the tanks first to remove mobility. Eventually he committed in the 4 or 5 turn. Epic combat ensues - however, Thunder Hammer crushes Farseer in second round of combat and that's the end of the seer council. He had outflanked warwalkers but they came on turn 5 - far too late to be of any real effect.

 

Won the tournament with three wins - unusally high number of xenos at the tourney. Good practice for my next tourney which this weekend just gone where I played a total of 7 games!

[Don-Pino]

It sounds very good that DW is now back in the game. However... its a shame that you need to use none-DW support. Would love an all DW-army.

 

How do you think a list would do with dreadnaughts for support fire instead of speeders?

[Tanhausen]

Congrats on the win!

 

I have moved from pure DW 2010 to doublewing on 2011 and boy am I happy. 2 tournaments (40 and 20 players) ranked 2nd tied with the first in both of them.

 

The "no target available in turn 1" tactics works just fine for a just new-low opponent... maybe even average. But regular tournament players usually don't fall for them. Its even funnier when as DW you face Daemon... turn 3 shows up real fast!

 

As for TH/SS spam...we have always suffered from swarms, so if we just forgive the Ini 4... its even worse. Be it a flashlight gunline with orders, small nids by the dozens or Orks with FC, they will bog us down by the numbers.

 

I find that terminators live not out of killing a lot but killing hard and enough. I mean, we can deal with MC usually, but its more of delivering enough casualties so the opponent has to check LD or start rolling Fearless and we all know how painful that can be.

 

My doublewing list right now is quite simple (as all our lists are :D)

 

Belial w/hammer

Sammy in bike

2 x 5 terminators (sarge PW, TH w/CML, CF, Claws, TH), one of them with Apo/Banner

2 x 3 bikes double melta, AB MM

1 x 3 bikes double plasma, AB MM

1 x 3 bikes double flamer, sarge PW, apo, AB/MM

3 x 1 LS Typhoon/MM

1 x WW w/HKM and EA

 

Usually, I deploy the 11 terminators in objectives/base, WW+sammy+LS hidden behind scenary, reserving all of the bikes.

 

People go crazy on pounding the terminators and usually make significant push forward... and usually forget that half of my army is going to outflank.

 

So it boils down to holding the line, removing transports and so on... until turn 2-3 the melta spam comes in from the side and starts popping AV11-12 (hopefully exploding and killing the goodies inside), flaming the support infantry that sits back and fires away.

 

Just as an example:

 

Game 3, table 1, facing SW at anihilation.

 

I win turn 1, he has castled up everything in his corner (DoW) and I DS the Belial squad in the heart of his army, I scatter and fall EXACTLY in the middle of his army, close to his LF.

 

In his turn he shot EVERYTHING to the squad (disembarked the GH, rapid fire, double meltas, so on) so wipe out all but Belial and the claws apo.

 

In my turn I multi assault 1 LF and 1 GH, losing the apo but winning the combat, forcing both units to flee.

 

This single action, worth 400 points, stopped all of his army and made him lose 2-3 turns to wipe out the Belial squad... while the LS poped the rhinos and the bikes turbo'ed to get into range.

 

In the end it was 9-8 KP (victory), but lets face it... SW are very hard builds! Plus I forgot to deploy 2 AB ;)

 

Some missions, pure DW is the king (bases for example) but the rest...if you face a shot heavy army or a mobile one that can concentrate in one point, blow you to kindowm come and rinse and repeat...you're in for some pain!

 

My 3 cents :P

[Jainar]

Congrats on your wins Tannhausen. I would also like to run Ravenwing but my area plays 1500 pts and Ravenwing is far too expensive at my points level!

 

If I get the chance to play at 1750 to 2000 pts, I would definitely try to swap landspeeders for more scouting and outflanking melta bikes. My Ravenwing squads are ready and itching to go!

 

Foot DW supplemented with fast Ravenwing (be it landspeeder or bike) is certainly a match made in Fluff and Tourney heaven...

 

You guys should check out the Deathwing Tactica thread on Warseer where they appear to be advocating LRCs. Also, they seem to think that DW is still underpowered - I definitely disagree and the tourney wins of the DW certainly disprove that!

 

At Don Pino - don't really like dreadnoughts for DA as they are severely overcosted. I would really like a Mortis (Rifleman) dreadnought but the points just scare me away. Unfortunately, only DW, RW and veterans are cost effective in the DA codex, even with the FAQ update.