Candleshoes Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Why did Perturabo allow the Lion to live after the novel Fallen Angels? I have thought about the answer to that and cannot quite place it. Perturabo could have had everything, he could have had the engines by keeping his lie in place, and soon after, he could have killed the Lion, be it on the ground, or by crushing him in space. They were the "Emperor's" envoys to the planet ... why did he allow the handful of survivors to leave? There were no consequences by eliminating a loyal primarch with several dozen wounded marines, on a dead world. If you read the ending, and replace the meaning of Emperor's name, with Horus (ie, he means Emperor Horus), Johnson interchangeably speaks to Perturabo about gaining favor, taking his place as the new and needed Warmaster, as well as the troubled past. This fits the loyalist view ... and the traitor view. I personally have always been of the opinion that the Lion is loyal, and many people here over the last 6 months have made great cases to this, saying he is the Emperor's willpower and rationale, he was the easiest to corrupt but the powers were too overconfident, and that by keeping Caliban ignorant of it's own corruption, he is a mirror of his father and humanity. However, all that being said ... Perturabo was a very intelligent, patient primarch, and literally had a gift for seeing all the angles and the paths that lead to them, he is methodical and precise ... he is a builder ... yes of seigeworks, but of the soul as well (he is the Devil if you follow Tarot). Did he drop to the surface and give the Lion an ultimatum and a offer? Obviously the accepted ending is written as a sneaky twist, but is there any worth in saying that there is more to it than that? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Ok, like you i lean more to the idea that the Lion is loyal to the Emperor and my guess is he wanted to be Horus' replacement. Now the reason you ask why did Perterabo not kill him. Firstly there is no guarantee Perterabo could slay the Lion in hand to hand combat. Now as you pointed out he could do it in ship battles, but that could result in the Lion escaping. Then there is the most obvious answer, at the time it was not known that Perterabo had turned against the Emperor, he would show his hand at Istvaan. Now Diamat was close to Istvaan so if the Iron Warriors had attacked the Lion it may have become quite obvious that Perterabo was a traitor. This could compromise the entire drop site massacre. Lorgar and the others could not openly side with such an action otherwise they would reveal themselves, Perterabo was a bitter Primarch and he might not feel to kindly to having the other secret traitors acting like they wanted to hunt him down. In short if Perterabo had attacked Lion EL'Johnson then and there chances are he would have mucked up the Drop Site Massacre, which was crucial to Horus' war against the Emperor and thus swinging the might of the war strongly into the loyalists side. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651596 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandmaster Anaziel Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Ok, like you i lean more to the idea that the Lion is loyal to the Emperor and my guess is he wanted to be Horus' replacement. Now the reason you ask why did Perterabo not kill him. Firstly there is no guarantee Perterabo could slay the Lion in hand to hand combat. Now as you pointed out he could do it in ship battles, but that could result in the Lion escaping. Then there is the most obvious answer, at the time it was not known that Perterabo had turned against the Emperor, he would show his hand at Istvaan. Now Diamat was close to Istvaan so if the Iron Warriors had attacked the Lion it may have become quite obvious that Perterabo was a traitor. This could compromise the entire drop site massacre. Lorgar and the others could not openly side with such an action otherwise they would reveal themselves, Perterabo was a bitter Primarch and he might not feel to kindly to having the other secret traitors acting like they wanted to hunt him down. In short if Perterabo had attacked Lion EL'Johnson then and there chances are he would have mucked up the Drop Site Massacre, which was crucial to Horus' war against the Emperor and thus swinging the might of the war strongly into the loyalists side. I agree with you, Perturabo could not afford to compromise the future Drop-Site massacre. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651752 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 good old clever perturabo! :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651759 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allfather1 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 Well, I don't really know why Perturabo didn't kill him but it seems to me that it would have been logical if he had. There are already 4 traitor legions on Isstvaan, 6 loyal legions are coming to kill them with 3 secretly traitor, so I would have thought that even without the Iron Warriors the Traitors would have won. Killing a Primarch and most of his veterans would have been a heavy blow for the Loyalists and as Ferrus wouldn't even wait for the second wave I doubt he would have waited when he heard the Iron Warriors were traitors. Corax might have advised caution and probably Vulkan, though I see Vulkan too loyal to his brothers to leave them alone. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaplain belisarius Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 he didnt want to show his hand till it was best to do so... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651802 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 8, 2011 Author Share Posted February 8, 2011 One thing of note for the discussion, it's not like the Lion had a lot of ships remaining over Diamat, and of the several that survived, all were heavily damaged and their weapon systems comprimised by the traitorous mechanicus technicians. Perturabo would have known this when he was within scanning range, and would have taken up a defensive position around the crippled DA ships. I suppose looking at it, the realistic possibility was there to destroy them in moments (either with the Lion on board, or while he was still on the surface) without raising alarm or compromising the Istvaan operations. The Lord of the Iron Warriors likely did show up with his entire Legion and all the might that it would entail, while on the way to Istvaan. Since there was no life left on the planet, the only way to contact the Imperium were on likely 3, horrendously damaged vessels, docked in orbit, bleeding. This makes Perturabo's "caution" in spoiling the plan seem like a soured option, given he has a loyal primarch in arguably the worst position in all of the heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651849 Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted February 8, 2011 Share Posted February 8, 2011 how many actual fighting ships did He show up with? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2651999 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 The other thing is despite the Lion being a bit inept when it comes to dealing with Emotion, he is a master strategist. Supposedly up high with the great Tactical Primarchs like Horus and Guilleman. Even with superior amount of ships and the Lion's being damaged it does not mean he could not escape or at least spread the word. If those at Istvaan found out there was another traitor one as close to Diamat it would have altered the entire battle. Indeed Ferrus badley wanted to get at Horus but thats when he thought the only traitors were on the planet. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2652412 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 As much as people like the idea of the Lion being a traitor and in support of Horus as Emperor at the end of the book, the fact he would go to all the trouble he did to prevent Horus from gaining the siege weapons shows what side he was on. Of course it could have been after a discussion with Peturobo that he was convinced he was wrong in opposing Horus, but that doesn't fit with his subsequent actions if you ask me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2652430 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Corsair Posted February 9, 2011 Share Posted February 9, 2011 I like the idea that the Lion was playing both sides and suspected Perturabo's real allegiance, if only because it makes him more unique amongst the Primarchs and would make his character far more interesting in my opinion. It would also fit his established tactical and strategic mastery and cold personality, where he alone worked it out and took advantage rather than merely informing one side or the other. But I admit it's probably not the case, and this is just a rare situation where the Lion was outwitted. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2652729 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terrahawk Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Perturabo would have been slain in hand-to-hand combat. In space yeah, he might have prevailed with a surprise attack, but not in hand-to-hand combat. So I tend to agree that Perturabo was playing it safe and didn't want endanger the planned attack at Istvaan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2654169 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billuriye Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Perturabo would have been slain in hand-to-hand combat. In space yeah, he might have prevailed with a surprise attack, but not in hand-to-hand combat. So I tend to agree that Perturabo was playing it safe and didn't want endanger the planned attack at Istvaan. Iron Warriors were no slacker in close quarters. They even rivaled WE with their ferocity. We can't say Perturabo would get spanked by Lion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2654179 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Iron Warriors were no slacker in close quarters. They even rivaled WE with their ferocity. We can't say Perturabo would get spanked by Lion. I dont really think they were as bloodthirsty as the WEs or the BAs, redardless of what witnesses say. They would have to see them all in combat to compare them properly, which wasnt something anyone else but other Astartes would be in a position to do. But I do believe they would be excellent hand-to-hand warriors due to their preferrence for siege tactics. Trench fighting and fortress assaults could get really intense. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2654288 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clewz Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 At that point no primarch had killed another so the idea could of still been horrifying to Perturabo (remember Horus was shocked when Fulgrim bought him Ferrus manus' head) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2654523 Share on other sites More sharing options...
shiVER Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 It was possible that Perturabo knew that there were loyalist elements in his legion right there with him, orbiting Diamat. That, or Mike Lee really screwed up the logic. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2655112 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frater Uriah Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I think it comes to psychology, as far as Perturabo's dealings with the Lion are concerned. Lots and lots of folks have discussed the Lion's emotional shortcomings in the past, and cited it, reasonably, as one of the reasons that the Emperor passed him over when considering the position of Warmaster (in truth, I don't think the Emperor even really considered anyone but Horus for the position). Let's look at it from this perspective: the Lion spends the formative years of his existence, isolated in the wilds of Caliban having to kill some of the most horrific monsters imaginable to survive day-to-day, with no human contact. In all truth, the young Lion was really isolated as the apex predator of Caliban, with nothing else even coming close: even then, he was the only one of his kind. After an unknown number of years, he is discovered by Luther and taken into the Order, where he adopts its codes and knowledge and alloys them with the paranoia and peerless ability to assess any situation instantaneously that fighting for his entire life in the wilderness gave him. Now he is an apex predator with doctrine and nascent social skills, but still isolated because nobody else even comes close to him, not even Luther, his adoptive father and savior, who but for the Lion would have been the most remarkable man of his age on Caliban. He is still alone, but he dreams of someday finding someone out there like him. We see this in Descent of Angels: he looks into the night skies and hopes that he is not the only one like him out there. Enter the Emperor and Magnus the Red, who come to Caliban and introduce him to his long-lost family. Suddenly, he has a father, someone who is superior to him, and nineteen brothers who are his peers, and he knows he is not alone in the galaxy. He is proud, as the teachings of the Order and his mastery of martiality have made him, but when he is alone with his Legion, without another Primarch, he is emotionally vague. This is why he developed his extremely aggressive, love/hate relationship with Russ, who was, like Jonson, raised by beasts as well, at least initially. In his own, curious way, the Lion loves his brothers from his Legion (he never refers to them as his sons, interestingly), but he does not grasp what makes them tick. They are too far removed from him, intellectually and emotionally, ultimately pieces to move around to achieve the endstate of his brilliant strategies. He never understands what an insult it is to Luther and the Dark Angels he sends back to Caliban to train and prepare subsequent generations of Dark Angels for the Crusade (to my way of thinking, he intended this as a great honor that was an unintentional blow to their martial pride. As far as the Lion knew, Luther saved him from a nuclear explosion. It is Luther's guilt that makes him feel he is being punished, rather than rewarded). And then, after the hellacious fighting on Diamat, come Perturabo and his Iron Warriors. And the Lion, in his naivete, could never imagine that one of his brothers, his equals, could ever have truly harmful intentions toward him or the Imperium (his spats with Russ are like rams butting heads, after all). Deep down, he's just glad to have Perturabo, who is probably the only Primarch more paranoid than the Lion is, there. And Perturabo, who is the only Primarch who is in the realm of the Lion's paranoia, without being bat ;) nuts like Kurze, is the perfect choice to send. Perturabo is not there to assasinate the Lion, he's there to feel him out: Horus is never sure where the Lion stood in his plans. Thanks to the Lion's relative sociopathy, the Warmaster would have no idea how or where he would jump when the Heresy erupted. So Perturabo, at Horus's behest, spins the Lion up about a war so incredibly remote that, whichever way he goes, when the Heresy erupts, he will be to far away to do anything about it, for good or for ill. And it's not coming from Horus, whom Jonson was quite jealous of, directly, so it's proxy-perfect. The Lion learns from his mistakes, in the end, I think. I really think it was his realization of his failings, that he had built that house himself, that led to the destruction of Caliban, moreso than Luther's betrayal. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2655162 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Frater Uriah beating me to it. Well said, sir! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2655178 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Sounds good to me. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2655273 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Juan Juarez Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Give that man a job. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2655304 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lupe Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well, there is also the fact that Perturabo is the most level-headed of all the traitor primarchs. His motives are different... Lorgar is, by this point, pretty much filled with hatred for the Emperor and anyone associated with him. Curze is on the run, too deep in his paranoia. Angron just wants to be let loose upon the galaxy. Fulgrim is already being slowly corrupted. Perturabo, however, would be the one less likely to bend his knee to the whispers of the Chaos Gods. Heck, he's the really rational one, 'm sure he even refuses to acknowledge their existence. He's probably reluctant to take part in this madness, but he's wracked with guilt over decimating his world, and when the opportunity arises, he just throws his lot in with the bunch of guys he dislikes less. But, as distant as his brothers might have been, he's not going to kill one in cold blood. Even on war footing. At this point, the Heresy must still seem to him like a righteous revolution, upholding the ideals of the Crusade, that the Emperor seems to have forsaken. At no point does he think about crushing the Lion's skull with a thunderhammer, or blowing his ships into stardust. The Heresy, in Perturabo's mind, was theirs to win, and when it was won, the rest of his brothers would see the hypocrisy of the Emperor. He wanted them to live, he wanted them all to survive the Heresy. Partly because the primarchs were humanity's shield, and killing just one of them would have been an unimaginable loss for mankind. And partly because his bitter side wanted to return some of the humiliations, to look down on his brothers for a change. And for that last part, the Lion was the right sucker in the wrong place, at the wrong time... I'm sure sticking it to his brother pleased Perturabo more than you can imagine... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2660451 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Well, there is also the fact that Perturabo is the most level-headed of all the traitor primarchs. His motives are different... Lorgar is, by this point, pretty much filled with hatred for the Emperor and anyone associated with him. Curze is on the run, too deep in his paranoia. Angron just wants to be let loose upon the galaxy. Fulgrim is already being slowly corrupted. Perturabo, however, would be the one less likely to bend his knee to the whispers of the Chaos Gods. Heck, he's the really rational one, 'm sure he even refuses to acknowledge their existence. He's probably reluctant to take part in this madness, but he's wracked with guilt over decimating his world, and when the opportunity arises, he just throws his lot in with the bunch of guys he dislikes less. But, as distant as his brothers might have been, he's not going to kill one in cold blood. Even on war footing. At this point, the Heresy must still seem to him like a righteous revolution, upholding the ideals of the Crusade, that the Emperor seems to have forsaken. At no point does he think about crushing the Lion's skull with a thunderhammer, or blowing his ships into stardust. The Heresy, in Perturabo's mind, was theirs to win, and when it was won, the rest of his brothers would see the hypocrisy of the Emperor. He wanted them to live, he wanted them all to survive the Heresy. Partly because the primarchs were humanity's shield, and killing just one of them would have been an unimaginable loss for mankind. And partly because his bitter side wanted to return some of the humiliations, to look down on his brothers for a change. Perterabo was not that level headed, he was seriously angered by the constant missions of seige warfare and his troopers being on garrison duty. After all one of the worse things for Astartes is to be idle for too long and the Iron Warriors and their Primarch were beginning to become bitter about it. Fast forward to his home worlds rebellion and it was the final straw on the stress and anger already rising in them. So they put Olympia too the sword and in horrific ways. Mass Genocide, because of his bitterness he exterminated his own homeworld. There is nothing level headed about that action. Of course he threw his lot in with Chaos and got rewarded with becoming a Deamon Prince and having his own Deamon World. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2660673 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 His over reaction to Dorn when Fulgrim cheekily asked him whether the Palace on Terra could withstand the Iron Warriors shows how level headed he was... Seriously though, he is described as increasingly mercuriel and known as paranoid, traits he shared with his progeny. Not someone I would say is known as the level headed one... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2661471 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I would use "calculating" over "level-headed" when describing Perturabo. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2661561 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 I would use "calculating" over "level-headed" when describing Perturabo. Agreed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/#findComment-2661574 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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