Razhbad Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I would use "calculating" over "level-headed" when describing Perturabo. Agreed. Seconded Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2661960 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 I think it comes to psychology, as far as Perturabo's dealings with the Lion are concerned. Lots and lots of folks have discussed the Lion's emotional shortcomings in the past, and cited it, reasonably, as one of the reasons that the Emperor passed him over when considering the position of Warmaster (in truth, I don't think the Emperor even really considered anyone but Horus for the position). Let's look at it from this perspective: the Lion spends the formative years of his existence, isolated in the wilds of Caliban having to kill some of the most horrific monsters imaginable to survive day-to-day, with no human contact. In all truth, the young Lion was really isolated as the apex predator of Caliban, with nothing else even coming close: even then, he was the only one of his kind. After an unknown number of years, he is discovered by Luther and taken into the Order, where he adopts its codes and knowledge and alloys them with the paranoia and peerless ability to assess any situation instantaneously that fighting for his entire life in the wilderness gave him. Now he is an apex predator with doctrine and nascent social skills, but still isolated because nobody else even comes close to him, not even Luther, his adoptive father and savior, who but for the Lion would have been the most remarkable man of his age on Caliban. He is still alone, but he dreams of someday finding someone out there like him. We see this in Descent of Angels: he looks into the night skies and hopes that he is not the only one like him out there. Enter the Emperor and Magnus the Red, who come to Caliban and introduce him to his long-lost family. Suddenly, he has a father, someone who is superior to him, and nineteen brothers who are his peers, and he knows he is not alone in the galaxy. He is proud, as the teachings of the Order and his mastery of martiality have made him, but when he is alone with his Legion, without another Primarch, he is emotionally vague. This is why he developed his extremely aggressive, love/hate relationship with Russ, who was, like Jonson, raised by beasts as well, at least initially. In his own, curious way, the Lion loves his brothers from his Legion (he never refers to them as his sons, interestingly), but he does not grasp what makes them tick. They are too far removed from him, intellectually and emotionally, ultimately pieces to move around to achieve the endstate of his brilliant strategies. He never understands what an insult it is to Luther and the Dark Angels he sends back to Caliban to train and prepare subsequent generations of Dark Angels for the Crusade (to my way of thinking, he intended this as a great honor that was an unintentional blow to their martial pride. As far as the Lion knew, Luther saved him from a nuclear explosion. It is Luther's guilt that makes him feel he is being punished, rather than rewarded). And then, after the hellacious fighting on Diamat, come Perturabo and his Iron Warriors. And the Lion, in his naivete, could never imagine that one of his brothers, his equals, could ever have truly harmful intentions toward him or the Imperium (his spats with Russ are like rams butting heads, after all). Deep down, he's just glad to have Perturabo, who is probably the only Primarch more paranoid than the Lion is, there. And Perturabo, who is the only Primarch who is in the realm of the Lion's paranoia, without being bat :D nuts like Kurze, is the perfect choice to send. Perturabo is not there to assasinate the Lion, he's there to feel him out: Horus is never sure where the Lion stood in his plans. Thanks to the Lion's relative sociopathy, the Warmaster would have no idea how or where he would jump when the Heresy erupted. So Perturabo, at Horus's behest, spins the Lion up about a war so incredibly remote that, whichever way he goes, when the Heresy erupts, he will be to far away to do anything about it, for good or for ill. And it's not coming from Horus, whom Jonson was quite jealous of, directly, so it's proxy-perfect. The Lion learns from his mistakes, in the end, I think. I really think it was his realization of his failings, that he had built that house himself, that led to the destruction of Caliban, moreso than Luther's betrayal. Thanks for that, clear explanation of how I feel it went. I finished Fallen Angels yesterday, really enjoyed it but I guess I missed something: When did Perturabo appear ? edit: I don't think he meant it as an honour to send Luther back, if I recall he looked at Luther in a disappointed way in Descent of Angels, after he found out that Luther had doubts about disarming the bomb. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2661996 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Perterabo appears right at the end of fallen angels. And like you i did not consider the Lion's actions with Luther to be one of an important mission. It was punishment plain and simple i believe Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2662033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jelle1880 Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 Yeah, I got it that he appeared right at the end, talking to the Lion, but I understood that he was there for a longer time (together with his Marines) and thought I missed something. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2662039 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghostbear_100 Posted February 19, 2011 Share Posted February 19, 2011 I'm glad to see a discussion on the Fallen angels book. While they are not the best HH books, they are some of the most intriguing in terms of finding out the motivations of some of the characters (plus its the first book to actually feature Perturabo in a dicussion). I agree that Perturabo was not a completely level headed primarch, instead being a very calculating personality. However, he did strike me as becoming a more calculating person when he had a goal he was very focussed on, be it a seige, the development of some kind of technology or equipment, etc, etc. When he met up with Jonson in Fallen Angels, it is known that he was on Horus' side, and was moving towards Istvaan with betrayal on his agenda. He had a goal (downfall of the Emperor), and was very motivated to accomplishing that goal. Chaos probably hadn't gotten its talons too deep into him at that point, so he was still of a pretty sound mind (although "sound" mind for an Iron Warrior is probably stretching it a little bit). He knew his goal, and just needed to start moving to accomplish it. So he came across Jonson, a warrior very full of pride (and in my opinion arrogance), and made a show of comradarie, of understanding, and of support, and in turn recieves support (in the form of superheavy seige tanks, and the acknowledgement that his support will not go unrewarded when Jonson in Warmaster). This is Perturabo's calculating side at work. While he is probably not as perceptive about people as Horus was, I have not doubt that he knew exactly how to manipulate Jonson to his own ends, even with Jonson's own intelligence and powers of perception. One way of looking at it is the Iron Warriors specialty:siege warfare. As so much of the seige warfare of Warhammer seems to be a mix of modern-ish methods and blackpowder era star-shaped fortress type battles, the type of thinking involved with that kind of siege in looking at the all the angles- literally. The same thought process can be shiftet to dealing with people- look at the angles (personality, triggers, history, motivations, general psychology) and figure out where to put pressure, how much pressure to apply, and how to apply it. I doubt Perturabo's mental state was in this state by the siege of Terra, but up until then I have no doubt that Perturabo was simply playing Jonson. As to Jonson, well I have a simple opinion about him- loyal to Emperor, but self serving for the most part. The best way of describing it ironically comes from the Space wolf book series (dont worry no spoilers here if you haven't read them). When asked about peoples loyalty to the Emperor (in regards to corruption and such), a character replies something to the jist of "well of course they are loyal to the Emperor, but some people have the tendency to twist their loyalty to the Emperor to serve their own ends." That about sums up my feelings of Jonsons broad, Imperium wide motivations at this point: take advantage of a terrible crisis to gain power, while ignoring the implications/motivations of what is happening. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2664473 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Im looking forward to the Iron Warriors novel whenever it comes out because it seems to me the reason for Perturabo's enmity toward the Emperor regarding the utilization of the Iron Warriors would be kinda "unrealistic" seeing how the Emperor is content to let the Primarchs dispose their forces and their fleets to prosecute the great Crusade to more or less their own volition. I'm sure a great part of it has to do with his upbringing and perhaps misplaced anger. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2701707 Share on other sites More sharing options...
gogmagog Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Perhaps there is another agenda, with the Lion and Perturabo not fulling commiting themselves and watching whats happening! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2701891 Share on other sites More sharing options...
WarSpirit Posted March 26, 2011 Share Posted March 26, 2011 Come on, do we Have to bring the hidden agenda/sit on fence theory now ? Just my two cents on the last comment. To come back to the main subject, we must not forget besides the primarchs personnality that the great guns where a vital part of horus plans. In attaking the DA, there was a chance that the lion and the remaining of his troops could have destroyed them, effectively messing horus plans, and so putting in jeopardy the drop site massacre. The overall plan was more important than dealing a first blow to the DA. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2702020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I cant believe that people, after reading the entire book, and having watched the Lion and his warriors fight this brutal war, they still questions his loyalty. He is standing there, drenced in the blood of slain traitors, clearly hatefull of their kind proclaiming "such is the fate of all traitors". He hands over the guns to Perturabo, because he can make the best use of them, and because, like every loyalist primarch, he is unaware of him being a traitor. Perturabo could have killed the Lion, but choses not to, I think, because there would be a small chance of compromising the Istvaan dropsite massacre. And besides, Perturabo gets what he wants: The siegeguns. Trust the Lion to be pissed when he discovers he has been betrayed... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2702837 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I cant believe that people, after reading the entire book, and having watched the Lion and his warriors fight this brutal war, they still questions his loyalty. He is standing there, drenced in the blood of slain traitors, clearly hatefull of their kind proclaiming "such is the fate of all traitors". He hands over the guns to Perturabo, because he can make the best use of them, and because, like every loyalist primarch, he is unaware of him being a traitor. Perturabo could have killed the Lion, but choses not to, I think, because there would be a small chance of compromising the Istvaan dropsite massacre. And besides, Perturabo gets what he wants: The siegeguns. Trust the Lion to be pissed when he discovers he has been betrayed... Oh if the Lion was a traitor it wasn't at this point... Consider that if he knew 4 chapters had gone rogue he would not think they could win... If he had did try to play both sides it wouldn't have been until after he knew who had what cards. I'm not saying I think he was a traitor... but I don't think this book proves anything... it is too early unless he actually knew more than was let on in the books. All the books show is the Lion isn't good at reading people... something we already knew. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2702873 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I cant believe that people, after reading the entire book, and having watched the Lion and his warriors fight this brutal war, they still questions his loyalty. He is standing there, drenced in the blood of slain traitors, clearly hatefull of their kind proclaiming "such is the fate of all traitors". He hands over the guns to Perturabo, because he can make the best use of them, and because, like every loyalist primarch, he is unaware of him being a traitor. Perturabo could have killed the Lion, but choses not to, I think, because there would be a small chance of compromising the Istvaan dropsite massacre. And besides, Perturabo gets what he wants: The siegeguns. Trust the Lion to be pissed when he discovers he has been betrayed... Oh if the Lion was a traitor it wasn't at this point... Consider that if he knew 4 chapters had gone rogue he would not think they could win... If he had did try to play both sides it wouldn't have been until after he knew who had what cards. I'm not saying I think he was a traitor... but I don't think this book proves anything... it is too early unless he actually knew more than was let on in the books. All the books show is the Lion isn't good at reading people... something we already knew. Perhabs the books shows that he was bad at reading people (it seems to have been one of its purposes). But I could argue that there are no proof of this either, as he is dealing with people that no others seems to be able to read. Perturabo? No one thought him a traitor. The Magos? He was more man than machine, technically unreadable. And I could argue that the book is proof of the Lions loyalty, because if he was a traitor, we must asumed that he turned to chaos because he was afraid of losing, and afraid he would get killed, or not be in a position of power. But in this book he does not make any sort of negotiation with the traitors, even when all hope seems lost, and he seems determined to accomplish his task, even if it means his own death. The Lion took a great risk to stop Horus, Im not saying he did it all for the Emperor, because he clearly expected an reward for his actions as we hear in the end. But there is nothing wrong in expecting to be honoured for your actions, a proud man would expect this. Some may call it arrogance, perhabs it is, or perhabs it was simply the Lions will and wish to be the best among his brothers, without breaking any rules (like making a rebellion). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2703859 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Draco Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I think one of the best things (maybe unintentional, but still) the HH writers have done is thrown up all this speculation about the Lion. It turned one of our core beliefs, that he was a Loyalist, completely on its head, to the point no one’s is certain what’s going to happen. The bit that A-D-B added into first heretic (don’t worry I won’t reveal if you haven’t read it) was sheer brilliance and I can’t wait to hear more in the storey he’s written for Age of Darkness. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2703961 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 And then, after the hellacious fighting on Diamat, come Perturabo and his Iron Warriors. And the Lion, in his naivete, could never imagine that one of his brothers, his equals, could ever have truly harmful intentions toward him or the Imperium You know, the bit with Perturabo at the end is often cited as an example of the Lion's naivete, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Lee intended it that way, but I am less than convinced. Yes, the Lion was deceived by Perturabo into giving him a strategic advantage over the loyalists, but so were some others... like Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Corax--and, of course, Dorn and the Emperor. The Lion's in good company here. As for why Perturabo didn't kill the Lion when he had the chance (if he had the chance), all the Lion would have had to do was send out one single astropathic communication from one of his ships' astropaths, and the Istvaan Drop-Site Massacre would have failed. (I refuse to use the new "Isstvan" spelling.) No way would Perturabo even consider it. @Lord Draco: I don't know what you're talking about. Nothing in First Heretic turns our understanding of the Lion on its head. There was a book, however, that threatened to do that, but it was released many years ago: Angels of Darkness. By Gav Thorpe. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704165 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khestra the Unbeheld Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 I'm not sure where the notion that Jonson was "naive" is coming from; that's giving him too much benefit of the doubt. Jonson was far too savvy an operator to make any sort of assumptions about what Perturabo's intentions for those weapons was, and it's doubtful he would have cared in any event. As for Perturabo, what would have been the point of attacking Jonson? By then, Jonson had practically done everything but pledge his side to Horus, and Perturabo probably brought up the possibility of trying to entice Jonson to come over the line completely to Horus after Jonson simply handed over the guns. Horus would have nixed that, knowing Jonson's nature would be to fight if backed into a corner, but would be content with a neutral and uninvolved Dark Angels Legion that would be in no position to assist the Emperor's forces. Basically, Perturabo had no orders to bring Jonson down, and Jonson would have already calculated the odds as being too low for Perturabo to have taken that risk. Jonson may have had a hard time relating to people, but he'd have had a breeze relating to predators, and you don't become a successful predator by not assuming every other predator isn't at least as dangerous as you are. His giving Perturabo those guns was a calculated move, and it's unfeasible to think that Jonson wouldn't have been aware of the growing resentment towards the Emperor of several of his fellow predators and that lines were being drawn, with Horus being the beacon for the antiestablishment and Lorgar chalking out that line. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704258 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_son_of_Dorn Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 personally i think Johnson is a coin that has ben flipped and has not yet landed (hence the contraversey over the Lion sword and etc etc) but i believe he is more of a balance factor as to say the Night Lord. The night lords dont make deamon pacts and have the purest gene seed, but are on the border of loyalty The lions bunch are all good but they have members who actually are heretical. (but they too are seen as pure loyalists) But i do believe the Lion is on the loyalists side simply because if the Emperor knew he was a traitor (and the Emperor knows hes still in the rock) you can bet on your life there would be an Grey Knight cruiser knocking at the door! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704281 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Every one mentions reasons as to why Perturabo didn't kill the Lion but if push came to shove could he actually best him in armed combat? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704297 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Every one mentions reasons as to why Perturabo didn't kill the Lion but if push came to shove could he actually best him in armed combat? Why would he need to when he would have the element of surprise and a fresh fleet with more guns than personel? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704375 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Yeah but can't be sure to destroy him like that, there would be a chance the Lion could escape such a situation.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704401 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Draco Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 @FerociousBeast: (spoiler) So what about the vision Argel Tal recieves from the daemon showing all the traitor primarchs landing on there home planets with Johnson amonst them. Im sure A-D-B has written on this forum that this was suppose to through up specualtion on his loyalties Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704491 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 And then, after the hellacious fighting on Diamat, come Perturabo and his Iron Warriors. And the Lion, in his naivete, could never imagine that one of his brothers, his equals, could ever have truly harmful intentions toward him or the Imperium You know, the bit with Perturabo at the end is often cited as an example of the Lion's naivete, and I wouldn't be surprised if Mike Lee intended it that way, but I am less than convinced. Yes, the Lion was deceived by Perturabo into giving him a strategic advantage over the loyalists, but so were some others... like Vulkan, Ferrus Manus, Corax--and, of course, Dorn and the Emperor. The Lion's in good company here. Hmmm they may not have interacted with the Perturabo in the same way as the lion before the trap was sprung.... but either way naive or not it is always pointed out that Luther was the Ying to the Lions Yang (or however you like it) and that the Lion was a genius in war (not saying Luther was bad) but he didn't understand people... Luther on the other hand was great with people... Maybe Perturabo isn't a good example but the point still stands... I don't see it as a matter of the Lion being Naive or not... he just isn't a people person. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704543 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arioch Posted March 28, 2011 Share Posted March 28, 2011 Lord Draco: What you speak of has also been talked about in the dark angels forum, and as far as I remember, the vision was more to be viewed like this: These where the primarchs that the chaos gods thougth would turn. That only means that they thought Jonson would turn, not that he actually did. A-D-B mentioned that he considered the Lion to posses a remarkable willpower, being born on a chaostainted planet and all, close to the eye of terra, yet he did not fall. No doubt he wanted to keep the exitement about the Lions allegiances, but the first heretic does really not prove anything, other than that the chaos gods wanted Jonson to fall, in fact they counted on it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704595 Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerociousBeast Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Also, despite the fact that we have ADB's assurances that the primarch in the vision you're speaking of is the Lion, based on the text alone he sounds more like Corax to me. Pale skin, black hair. The Lion has blonde hair and is not said to be particularly pale. Regardless, ADB has said that he put the Lion in the "list" of traitor Primarchs (if in fact he did...) not because the Lion was a traitor, but because the Chaos gods wanted to make him a traitor. But failed, as Fallen Angels makes abundantly clear. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2704677 Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Also, despite the fact that we have ADB's assurances that the primarch in the vision you're speaking of is the Lion, based on the text alone he sounds more like Corax to me. Pale skin, black hair. The Lion has blonde hair and is not said to be particularly pale. Regardless, ADB has said that he put the Lion in the "list" of traitor Primarchs (if in fact he did...) not because the Lion was a traitor, but because the Chaos gods wanted to make him a traitor. But failed, as Fallen Angels makes abundantly clear. Plus they are all in Legion order and Lion El'Jonson was first so yeah. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2705316 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 When it comes to the Lion's loyalty i can say i know the truth of it. Why? Because ADB answered that fundamental truth of it in his short story Savage Weapons, i think if i remember correctly ADB got tired of discussions like these where people on one side are adamant that the Lion was waiting to see who wins, whilst others are adament that the Lion was loyal to the end. Unfortunately most of you will have to wait until Age of Darkness comes out to find the truth of this. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2706218 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 @FerociousBeast: (spoiler) So what about the vision Argel Tal recieves from the daemon showing all the traitor primarchs landing on there home planets with Johnson amonst them. Im sure A-D-B has written on this forum that this was suppose to through up specualtion on his loyalties Daemons are lies manifested remember! I seem to remember there was never a moment where the Daemon told Argel Tal the Primarches in his vision were traitors, but I could just be remembering incorrectly. It's possible the visions were of the ones on tainted worlds which the Daemons could view? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/221906-perturabo-and-the-lion/page/2/#findComment-2706819 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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