edinburger Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Hi there. Hope this is the right place to post this. I have been working on an idea about a homebrew idea of an offshoot of the First Legion (or indeed remain true to the ideals of the First Legion). Basically the Original Legion Master of the First Legion has a disagreement with the Lion about bringing in the Knightly orders and refuses to comply with the Lions new plans for the Legion. Basically The Legion Master and a few chapters of Terrans that remain firmly fully immovable on the issue and whilst being part of the Legion they are removed from it. Basically the Legion Master sees this as some sort of cult and sideshow to the Ideals of the Emperor. Say 10 Years before the events of the events of fallen angels they are lost in the warp and re amerge in the current time and find out what happened on Caliban when they return to find the Legions base of operations destroyed. After finding out they immediately renounce the Lion as a traitor for allowing the Majority of the Legion to be destroyed and vow to bring them to task and to destroy the Fallen of Luther. Just looking for Ideas on the way I can flesh this out. Maybe a three way war between the Survivors of the First, the Dark angels and the Fallen. Has the Pre Heresy Legion Master been named? Any other ideas Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 After finding out they immediately renounce the Lion as a traitor... This is a tricky thing, especially if you are homebrewing a story and want it to flow well. If they come back through a 10,000 year warp storm, there would be next to no possible way that they would find out: a) How Caliban was really destroyed, only that it no longer exists. b - That Luther and many Calabanite marines turned their backs on the Imperium, and fought against their brothers. c) How the Lion really "died" during the Heresy. d) What the sons of the Lion have been doing for 10,000 in their circles of circles. These things, for all intents and purposes, do not leave the inner circle, and do not exist to anyone else. They kill for their secrets. The most secretive of the loyalist astartes would not hand out this information on a whim, nor would they likely show anything other than doubt for an unprecedented lost Chapter of the I Legion re-appearing. You'd have to be imaginative to think of a reason why Azrael would accept them as equals, and not give them up to Inquisition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 When you say it like that up i agree with you, how about they arrive and find caliban a big pile of rocks orbiting the star. After survys of the system hey Find evidence of what happened on Caliban on its last days ( i am sure there would be enough debris scattered, data pods signal echos ) such as what happened some truths and some half truths, Im sure it would be easy enough to find evedence of battle and what happened. A few weeks later a Dark Angel ship Jumps into the system and attacks the Survuvors of the I legion and then it all kind of Kicks off. The Chapter master denounces the Dark Angels and the Lion as Trators to the big E I would say that the Survivours of I legion would amount to a number of Chapters Loyal to the chapter master. And from there it all kicks off. Its just something im trying to get round and thanks for the imput and if you have any more sugestions that be brilliant Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Interesting idea. I'm not sure how much they can ascertain from 10,000 year old debris, but hey, it's your story. I have an alternate path for you, if you don't mind... What if these survivors come back and are actually accepted by the DA and the Inner Circle goes as far as to approve of them being the basis for a successor chapter. I could even believe the master of these survivors could be inducted into the Inner Circle - after he is proven free of taint of course from a Int Chaplain. And than these survivors realize something just isn't adding up. They had their suspicions 10k years ago, obviously, but now things are slowly being revealed to their upper echelon of veterans that does not sit well with them... As the Unforgiven have their own agenda, so too do these survivors, to learn the truth and ultimately report it to the Inquisition, all the while in the guise of one of the Unforgiven successors. They could even be silently working with the Inquisition... Circles within circles. Just a suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Intresting thanks for commenting But would a LEGION master who was effectivly an outsider in his legion return to serve under essencialy a chapter master who follows the teachings of the Lion. The mechanicum seem to be able to decode, find and use even older tech from STC's and i assume that there would be some information/data availible to be found after a major inter-legion from wreakage, trashe equipment. data nodes floating about or imbeded in asteroids or the such. Sorry for the spelling my keyboard is knackered Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 Well I like to think of Azreal as the master of the entire Unforgiven. After some thought, I think I see what you mean by "Original Legion Master'. You are basically speaking of a Terran who acted in the Emperors place, commanding the 1st Legion until the Lion was found. From there, the Legion seems to be broken down into Chapters. How would he fit into the Legion once the Primarch is found? Unofficially I suppose he can be as separate as he likes, officially though, I guess he would be a "Grand Master" in charge of a handful of Chapters? Anywho, you seem sold on the idea, so I'd rock it. My next question is, why would the Dark Angels attack these survivors on sight? Remember, not all are privy to the secret of the Fallen, and even if they though that is what they might be (considering their markings) the Int. Chaplains would certainly want to capture and ask them some questions. On a side note, I'm not trying to say anything is wrong, I'm just posing questions in case you hadn't thought about them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 The thing I think would throw this all off track would be that the Dark Angels likely would not accept them, as they basically sound exactly like the Fallen. I don't think it would matter that they still claim to be loyal, have no aggression toward the Dark Angels, etc. That's actually exactly what some of the Fallen do. They could plead all they want, but the modern Dark Angels Inner Circle would likely see this as a group of the Fallen, and with that size of a group, they would likely be finding ways to conduct a war against them without a huge conflagration to bring it to the attention of the High Lords, Inquisition, etc. The Dark Angels seem to view any singular individual or group identifying itself as a remnant of the old Legion as a tainted Fallen, regardless of protestations otherwise. You also need to look at it from the point of view of the people currently alive in the Imperium. The Dark Angels, for all that they may not be entirely trusted, are proven heroes of the Imperium. Some new group claiming to be some originals are likely to be viewed with a great deal of skepticism, and would likely make themselves enemies of the Empire at the first mention of a denouncement of the Dark Angels, even if they had proof. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 @EPK Thanks your imput is great keep it comming :P The jist of it is, Legion Master isnt that friendly with the Lion Legion Master and lets say 3 Terran Chapters Disapear MIA in the warp on a Expidition 10 years before Fallen Angels or Sarosh happens (not Sure what i will go for) Legion Master and Force pop out of the warp at Caliban in in current time frame and find it Blasted and huge chunks of it just floating in orbit Legion Master pulls together a semi coheriant picture of what happend after the heresy from debris, data recorders, signal echos or Libraian Visions Dark Angels Ship appears in system and attacks the LM's Fleet ( i think they would do this as im sure some fallen might have came back. or on the grounds of theres a secret here and they dont want outsiders poking through their garbage). Im Sure the DA wouldnt be trusting it to the rank and file so im pretty sure there would be some Deathwing attatched to the ship. LM destroys DA ship LM Denonces the Lion for allowing part of the Legion to rebel (or depending how much he knows fall to chaos) and vowes to Liquidate the fallen and destroy the DA which he sees as not First Legion anymore. @Bryan Blaire Yeah i agree the DA would not want His force back and would move to liquidate the Legion Masters Forces because they may think that he is Fallen, they may think that He would be thorn in way the DA do thier buisness (as having nothing to do with the knightly orders in the first place) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 10, 2011 Share Posted February 10, 2011 All your explanations work for me. The Libby vision bit especially. Your Chapter of course will have an uphill battle. They are now enemies of the Unforgiven and surely the greater Imperium with them as Bryan noted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 10, 2011 Author Share Posted February 10, 2011 Workable then? Do you know if the Legion Master of the First was ever named ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 I don't know much DA lore, so this is my take. The Legion Master would have worked with over 5 000 or is it 10 000 DA SM? So I can see him being the right hand man for Azreal, since basically the DA and all the Successor chapters are His to command. Rememeber the DA only look like Astartes, but in fact is One Legion with over 5000 SM strong. Since the Legion Master would have worked side by side with The Lion (or did I read your fluff/story wrong?) that I believe Azzy would really want all the knowladge that he can get from the Legion Master. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Viray Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 No offense, but I think the means you have listed for your offshoot Legion finding out about the Dark Angels' secret is rather contrived. The Dark Angels have kept their secret for 10,000 years, even amongst their own number, and they are very, very good at what they do. If it was as easy as getting a psychic vision or going to Caliban's prior location, then I find it highly doubtful the Unforgiven would have managed to keep their secret this long, if at all. Also, on that note, 10,000 years is a long time. Considering how violently Caliban went poof, I doubt their would be any debris still remaining in the planet's previous orbital cycle, most of its pieces having been flung quite forcefully to the far reaches of the universe. I'm not trying to say your idea is unfeasible, it just comes off as incredibly forced and cliche right now. Send it to Liber; they'll help you out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chapter Master Ignis Domus Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Warning: You have been located by a Liberite. Prepare for immediate doom. And I would recommend posting in the Liber. Bowling balls don't hurt much. Honest. Really. Would I lie to you? Basically the Original Legion Master of the First Legion has a disagreement with the Lion about bringing in the Knightly orders and refuses to comply with the Lions new plans for the Legion. Basically The Legion Master and a few chapters of Terrans that remain firmly fully immovable on the issue and whilst being part of the Legion they are removed from it. Basically the Legion Master sees this as some sort of cult and sideshow to the Ideals of the Emperor. This doesn't seem big enough for the Master to run away with three companies. Plus, if he's so devoted by to the Emperor, why is he running? Say 10 Years before the events of the events of fallen angels they are lost in the warp and re amerge in the current time and find out what happened on Caliban when they return to find the Legions base of operations destroyed. After finding out they immediately renounce the Lion as a traitor for allowing the Majority of the Legion to be destroyed and vow to bring them to task and to destroy the Fallen of Luther. And lo! They are lost in the Warp! If this happened to as many chapters as said in DIYs, there wouldn't be any marines. In case it doesn't seem obvious, I don't recommend this. For more info, see the Guide to DIYing, stickied at the top of the Liber Astartes section. Also, why would they 1) renounce the Lion if they have no idea what's going on, 2) seek to destroy the Fallen if they essentially are Fallen, and 3) be let to live by the Dark Angels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 @ Viray Hey no offence taken and thanks for replying. Just my understanding of what happens (limited) is that whats left of the planet would form some sort of asteroid belt orbiting the sun in a sort of cloud or ring after its distruction. I was thinking about the LM going back to Caliban which is what he would do after an operation and in need of resuply. I think it is slightly plausible as how many ships would actually go to caliban especially if it has been expunged/forgoten by the Imperium and those ships that did unfortunatly find them selves in the system would be destroyed by the Undoubtably fast reaction of the DA, (which i am sure would have forces close by to deal with anyone getting near to thier biggest secret) I also think it would be plausible to find information from either loyalist or fallen as the ammount of equipment destroyed, blasted out to space, data pods ejected by destroyed ships would be immense. Obviosly there would be some information found as i am sure both Loyalist and Fallen equipment, tanks, powerarmour, ships etc would be Networked and would have some information about the situation, orders etc. Bare in mind the amount of DA in the time frame who would have visited the caliban system would be extreamly low the only DA who have been there will have been on the Guard ship. @CM Ignis Domus Thanks again for the comments i will try and post it there in the morning. I think it is a big enough reason, surely the Legion Master would have been trained by the BigE if he was trusted with the E's first Legion. Simple soldiering is a lot difrent than ponsing about in robes like monks. Maybe the Emp left a big enough imprint on the LM that he found the Lions way of forsing the knightly orders on his Legion was enough for him to say not on my watch. Hes not running he is still part of the Legion but apart from it, went missing in the warp with three chapters of the First Legion, thats a mighty big expedition fleet. 1 they found out what happend some how (as you can see im still trying to work that out) when they Jumped into the Caliban System and obviously they would have done some surveys (from what i have read this shouldnt have been a problem) 2 They are not Fallen they were not on Caliban when Luthar launched his sucker punch on the Lion 3 What can the DA do to 3 Chapters of First Legion Terran Vetrerans (and support) without arousing suspicion with the Inquision and the High Lords Thanks Guys for responding you are being helpful :o I am thinking of maybe dropping the renouncing of the Lion and having the LM's ships being attacked by the Caliban Guardship and thats what spaks of the big three way (sorry for spelling or incoherant writing im shattered :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Candleshoes Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 (which i am sure would have forces close by to deal with anyone getting near to thier biggest secret) I'm sorry, but there would be nothing left of the planet, or anything that would have been outside the void shields on the Fortress Monastery. The Index Astartes article made that very clear, pg 21 "... it broke apart and was no more, the debris of its death spasms sucked into the maelstrom of the warp. All that remained of Caliban was the ruins of the Order's fortress-monastery." Anything that did survive and remained inside of it currently exists as The Rock we know and love in current 40k terms, the traveling Fortress Monastery of the Dark Angels. There would be no reason that the Dark Angels would patrol Caliban's space, let alone have "forces close by". There is nothing there to reveal any secret, everything would have either been liquidated by the Lion's bombardments, or sucked into the warp, or now existing as part of the Rock. There is no reason there would be floating rhinos in space with orders from the heresy, let alone anything 10,000 years later for passers by to find. Sounds harsh, but thinking of how to make fluff that flows is tough, when the subject is pretty out there. Maybe the Emp left a big enough imprint on the LM that he found the Lions way of forsing the knightly orders on his Legion was enough for him to say not on my watch. It's not his Legion. He has no claim, no ownership, and his loyalty is genetically coded into his blood by the Emperor, not to mention he is a genetic template of the Lion himself. The Lion was not the first Primarch to be reunited with his Legion, and the Legions and Primarchs before him all set a precedent, not too mention it was the will of the Emperor of Mankind for his sons to command their respective Legions in all aspects. The LM followed the Emperor yes, he would have been reunited with his genetic father the Lion on Caliban. Why does he have a problem with using the Lion's homeworld as a recruitment centre for the future generations of Dark Angels? Why would he have a problem inducting the men of the Order who make the age requirments, allowing them to be initiates? Does the LM have a better planet to recruit from, or know better than the Lion? Would he be so petty as to not trust the Lion? http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p113/Darkbeastman/Dark.png Though the Emperor has a place in the Dark Angels hearts, the Lion was loved and venerated. He still is. Even after 10,000 the Emperor is still seen only as a man to them. Of all the Angels, one could say that the Lion treated his Terran contingents far better than those of the Caliban counterpart. This is one of the main reasons for their unique civil war, so going for the notion that those specific Terrans are unhappy with the Lion is heresy in itself, in a time before heresy... Pre Fallen ... er Fallen. The LM's "watch" would have been following his orders and giving the fealty owed to the Demi-God who led him and his men to more victories on the field than any other Legion, save that of the Warmaster (and arguably Dorn). Again, it's not the LM's legion, and the Lion can do anything he wants, he was born into the purple, as it were, and due more than anything to the Lion's upbringing, he would suffer no questioning of the hierarchy he and his father set in place for his legion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 @candleshoes Thanks for pointing that out, i will have to re think that part of it and see if i can come up with something else, (re caliban) Regarding why the LM might not like the Lions The Lion does not always come over as the most people centric of primarchs and has a History of rubbing up people and making them feel uncomfortable. Due to his upbringing or the fact that he seems mildly autistic in the way he communicates. He could see the Knightly Orders as some sort of sideshow to the way the Legion Should fight, remember the LM would have had more experiance in controlling Astares and Fighting. There is precident in the BL books of senior comanders not agreeing with a Primarch on matters of Legion Policy. Vespasian in Fulgrim comes to mind when Fulgrim orders the Legion to be "Enhanced" with alien Grafts and Combat drugs, and it is stated that he would not allow the asares under his command to comply. Maybe after training with the big E the LM sees the Lion as some sort of second rate replacement. Or it could be that the LM went from Head Honcho to 3rd or 4th Dog in the Legion. Rightly or wrongly he may see the way the knightly orders operate as something that will effect the way the Legion Fights. Yes the Big E today is Just a man but to some one form the time of the crusade and who trained under the big E he would be more than that. The way he is described the Loyalty he gets from the loyalists in the Trator Legions who go against thier primarchs is described in the books. Sorry got to cut this short Boss is comming and "No Internet at work" Ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Sorry if i am comming over rude or "lionish" its not ment i am am just trying to get my head round this Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Honestly, what I've seen so far feels like a very contrived method to do something that isn't sufficiently interesting to justify the contrivance. Trying to yank preheresy forces into the modern era of 40K is not a new and unique idea, and getting them lost in the warp is almost always the first method people appropriate to do so. Why do you want to do this, in any case? What do you want to do with this that couldn't be done with a more conventional chapter, or with a post-heresy force? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Cheers man for the Reply I Never said i had a new idea or was not trying to say i had. Sorry if it came off that way. Lost in the warp is the only idea i had and more plausible than the entire expedition gots to the fridgios system and gets frozen in a sudden ice age and then defrosts after 10000 years. Well i dont want a conventional 40k unit i like the feel of the crusade SM more than the 40k ones. And as i just found a large amount of my old RT SM painted in the DA old colours in my parents house i was thinking of using them again and not as any unforgiven or robe wearing warrior monk(eys). I dont like the feel of the new DA. Cheers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EPK Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Well if that's the case, no one is going to refuse to play you if you simply say, my army is a pre-heresy Dark Angels force. Others have done it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinburger Posted February 11, 2011 Author Share Posted February 11, 2011 Would Just like some decent background to why they are not skirt wearing pansies. Ha ha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 One of the things I'm seeing with this idea is this: If the Legion Master didn't accept the restructuring of the Legion into something resembling the knightly orders of Caliban, then what you have is simply a Crusade/pre-Heresy Space Marine force. You wouldn't have the Ravenwing, because those came from the knightly order restructuring, and you likely wouldn't have the Deathwing, because that doesn't even seem to have been established until after the Ravenwing was. You also lose the entirety of the "flavor" of the Dark Angels, because the Legion Master has essentially trapped these units as whatever the Dark Angels were called prior to renaming. You could still have them fight as some off-shoot of the Dark Angels that have dropped the robes and possibly even the monkishness altogether, that's not implausible. Maybe they are more of an intelligence agency style Chapter, operating in very small units throughout the Imperium, but that feel the robes hinder this too much for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octavulg Posted February 11, 2011 Share Posted February 11, 2011 Why not just play the Consecrators, who are in pre-heresy colors with pre-heresy equipment? Or play a group of the Fallen with some new recruits? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 You could also, if you like the more Plains Indians fluff portion of the Dark Angels, write up some background for a planet similar to Kimmire (sp?) that your Chapter comes from, drop the robes and play up the feathers and eagles or some such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HsojVvad Posted February 12, 2011 Share Posted February 12, 2011 Trying to yank preheresy forces into the modern era of 40K is not a new and unique idea, and getting them lost in the warp is almost always the first method people appropriate to do so. This gave me an idea. Why not have the Legion Master Time Travel to the future of his own free will? Forget about Warp Storms. Like Octavulg have said, everyone thinks like this. I have even done this until I realized everyone does this. So the LM Time Traveled on his own accord for what ever reason. It was over 10 000 years ago. Technology was lost since then, so whos to say they couldn't have done this before? Now the technology is lost and no more time traveling. Maybe the Legion Master was there himself during the "Civil War" and was chasing some Fallen who themselves went into the future so he follow them. Hell maybe he was even chasing Cyphyer himself. Forget about Warp Storms, think of something why the LM hismelf would have to go into the future himself. If he didn't chase anyone into the future, how about he was about to capture Cypher or who ever, but he got ambushed. Since the person/Cypher couldn't kill him, for what ever reason, he cared for him, or what ever, and didn't want to be chased by him no more, this person/Cypher sent him into the future. 10 000 years into the future. Just an idea or two for you. :nuke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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