Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Seahawk]

I don't know if it was already mentioned, but the US WD 375 has some interesting tidbits. The most important one to me is that the chapter is made up of Brotherhoods, which, numbering roughly 100 Grey Knights, stand as the equivalents of Battle Companies. Not only that, there are eight Brotherhoods and if the entire chapter wanted to go to war with every Knight wearing a suit of terminator armor, they could...

[Skyhawk]

Well... Yes, there is something that can be called "better" writing.

 

When I opened the new GK codex and read the first chapters of Grey Knight history I could not help but to feel like it's meant for 12-year old boys.

The vocabulary is far simpler. Stories are straightforward to the very limit. All in all the feel is poor.

 

In comparison:

 

When I open the Daemonhunters Codex I read Inquisitor Marchant's lecture to the young adepts.

It still gives me shivers...

 

THAT is good writing.

[caboosebe]

A lot of people are also scared of 'what's next?' GW doesn't seem to care about the story they used to have that was so well writen. Only about getting new people to buy the products. What brings more money? The new guy that has to buy an entire army, or an old veteran who has his army all painted up, and buys an item now or then?

People that are replying on this topic are mostly fluff lovers, if you only played for stats, you wouldn't reply to this.

I know I am.

So when we see the way that GW is going, we get scared, because we don't know what's next on the list to destroy the story we liked so much.

And we know, that we, as fluff lovers, will end playing warhammer BECAUSE of fluff.

Now, I'm no Grey Knight player, but as I see the GK fluff borderlining Chaos, I'm getting afraid about what's going to be the fluff in the next Chaos Codex, and believe me, we CSM already find our Codex lacking!

So people get angry at Matt, because all the guy does, is trying to save his job. His boss wants a codex that sells, so that's what Matt does. Not caring about the old fans, the end justifies the means. Even though I don't like the current GK fluff, I can see why Matt did it. He isn't liked at all, yet he manages to stay at GW and still writing codici.

It will get better at one point, that they'll be going back to old fluff, it just has to happen one day or an other.

[sonofblood]

A lot of people are also scared of 'what's next?' GW doesn't seem to care about the story they used to have that was so well writen. Only about getting new people to buy the products. What brings more money? The new guy that has to buy an entire army, or an old veteran who has his army all painted up, and buys an item now or then?

People that are replying on this topic are mostly fluff lovers, if you only played for stats, you wouldn't reply to this.

I know I am.

So when we see the way that GW is going, we get scared, because we don't know what's next on the list to destroy the story we liked so much.

And we know, that we, as fluff lovers, will end playing warhammer BECAUSE of fluff.

Now, I'm no Grey Knight player, but as I see the GK fluff borderlining Chaos, I'm getting afraid about what's going to be the fluff in the next Chaos Codex, and believe me, we CSM already find our Codex lacking!

So people get angry at Matt, because all the guy does, is trying to save his job. His boss wants a codex that sells, so that's what Matt does. Not caring about the old fans, the end justifies the means. Even though I don't like the current GK fluff, I can see why Matt did it. He isn't liked at all, yet he manages to stay at GW and still writing codici.

It will get better at one point, that they'll be going back to old fluff, it just has to happen one day or an other.

 

I don't think as a whole that we can say the fluff of the entire game is being changed/destroyed codex after codex. Ward isn't the only writer, and among them Cruddance writes Okay-Good fluff while Phil Kelly seems to write the best stuff. If Ward could take a hint from either of them on how to write decent fluff instead of over the top ridiculousness and things that are hypocritical or don't make sense I think the hate might die down, doesn't seem like that'll happen though. I just hope the next marine 'dex is written by someone else that isn't Ward.

[Brother Valerius]

Well... Yes, there is something that can be called "better" writing.

 

When I opened the new GK codex and read the first chapters of Grey Knight history I could not help but to feel like it's meant for 12-year old boys.

The vocabulary is far simpler. Stories are straightforward to the very limit. All in all the feel is poor.

 

In comparison:

 

When I open the Daemonhunters Codex I read Inquisitor Marchant's lecture to the young adepts.

It still gives me shivers...

 

THAT is good writing.

 

The point is, it's only better writing in your opinion. If someone says they think the writing you find inferior is actually better, who are you to say that they're wrong? Sure, maybe you can break it down to "it's better because it follows x rule," but then you can ask the same thing about the rule you're using as a measuring stick. Why is your rule the proper way to judge good writing, and not some other rule? Eventually, you will break it down as far as you can, and find out that it's all subjective. There is absolutely no such thing as art which is "better" in an objective sense, only art which is better from your point of view.

 

The reason I'm harping on this point is because I feel like there's a bit too much soapboxing in this discussion of the nature of "How can GW permit this tripe? Everyone can see that this writing is awful," when in reality, if they allowed it it's because someone liked it and felt it was solid fluff writing. I, myself, don't find any of the nuggets of fluff discussed here to be bad fluff (for the most part). They did a pretty good job, and while obviously some disagree, I feel like those who don't like the new material are trying to insist that it's simply bad, and if anyone likes it they have no taste and their opinion is worthless. Well, I like it, and you can't tell me that I'm wrong to do so because there is no objective standard.

[AoC]

Problem is, for many people it isn't just bad fluff they dislike (but it fit the universe settings). It's bad fluff that disregard pre-c:gk universe and slap in the face death guard (one guy walked into deamonic planet of mortarion and killed everything including DAEMONIC PRIMARCH HIMSELF, all this alone, it's just that bad as if random joe chaos marine walk to terra, killed the emperor and burned mars in to the ground beating all titans using his trusty powerfist).

[Brother Valerius]

Those two things aren't equivalent at all. The Grey Knights are the elite of the elite, and the supreme Grand Master is the very cream of that crop. He is arguably powerful enough to be a primarch himself. Then factor in the fact that Grey Knights are even better at fighting daemons than anything else. I don't think it's out of whack. Even if it was out of place (which it really isn't), the setting changes constantly. What was a valid basis for comparison ten years ago may no longer be a valid basis for comparison today.

[Eddie Orlock]

The point is, it's only better writing in your opinion. If someone says they think the writing you find inferior is actually better, who are you to say that they're wrong? Sure, maybe you can break it down to "it's better because it follows x rule," but then you can ask the same thing about the rule you're using as a measuring stick. Why is your rule the proper way to judge good writing, and not some other rule? Eventually, you will break it down as far as you can, and find out that it's all subjective. There is absolutely no such thing as art which is "better" in an objective sense, only art which is better from your point of view.

So, wait, this book is not for critics? We aren't allowed to dislike it and be critical of it? I can't accept that premise.

 

Most of the time, I tend to see these things either evaluated by what might be considered 'authoritative' reviewers, or, by the balance of the audience. We're the audience and many of us don't like it, ergo, its a poor preformance and in the absence of recognised critics is unlikely to win 'critical acclaim'.

 

The whole idea that art can't be judged is preposterous. Of course we can then talk about the objectivity of the judgement, but you must remember that upon invoking that concept, to support a claim that no one can denounce the opinions of others you relinquish all claim to do the same. As it stands, we judge art all the time. We all made a favourable judgement call with regard to GeeDubs works at least once or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

This actually bleeds into what I've observed as another culteral trend at the B&C that I don't approve of. The stifling of criticism of the Ultramarines, Codex: Marines, and, as we encounter here, the works of Ward in general. This trend of supression is something that I've seen come and go around here before though. So much of the value of a public discussion forum lies in the open exchange of ideas, when this is suppressed, the value is diminished. It is important that we're free to criticise works that we don't like. To generate works for public consumption is by its very nature an invitation to criticism.

[Vindicatus]

Ham.

 

/thread

[Marmande]

A good analogy to this would be what The Phantom Menace did to Star Wars. Sure, it probably brought some new people to the franchise but killed the fun for a lot of those who had been there all along. Ward is that guy who watched Star Wars as a kid, then Phantom Menace as an adult, and then said afterwards that what it really needed was more Jar-Jar.

 

Rumor is that most of the studio doesn't have a good opinion of him but Alan Merrett wants to keep him around so there's that. :P

 

He is arguably powerful enough to be a primarch himself.

 

Nope.

[Inache]

Problem is, for many people it isn't just bad fluff they dislike (but it fit the universe settings). It's bad fluff that disregard pre-c:gk universe and slap in the face death guard (one guy walked into deamonic planet of mortarion and killed everything including DAEMONIC PRIMARCH HIMSELF, all this alone, it's just that bad as if random joe chaos marine walk to terra, killed the emperor and burned mars in to the ground beating all titans using his trusty powerfist).

 

I find arguments that they're changing stuff to be quite amusing. Stuff has changed so much since Rogue Trader. 40k looks nothing like what it did then. Plus, how much GK fluff did we actually have about GK's before this codex? A White Dwarf article, an IA article, Codex: Daemonhunters, Dark Millennium, Ben Counter's books, The Inquisition, and maybe a few references here and there. This is the first time we've really seen a glimpse into the inner workings of the Grey Knights. Just because it isn't what we put together from implied sources or apocryphal knowledge, doesn't mean it's disregarding anything.

 

Plus like I've said before, just because a Primarch is now a Daemon Primarch, doesn't mean he's invulnerable, in fact, he's more vulnerable now that he's a daemon prince against the Grey Knights than he would have been before. Plus the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights, their most powerful psyker, most veteran battle-brother, who quite possibly has gene-seed from the Emperor himself, is for all intents and purposes a shadow of the Primarchs.

[Skyhawk]

The point is, it's only better writing in your opinion.

 

Yes, indeed it is my opinion wich, despite many efforts of my opponents, I am still entitled to have.

[Iron Lord]

Concerning Mortarion leaving his world in the first place- didn't the old Epic game have models for all four Primarchs that were focussed on specific Chaos deities?

 

The Apocalypse game has rules for a special formation: Angron + his bloodthirsters in a White Dwarf issue focussing on the 1st Armageddon War- and Angron simply is a Daemon Prince with a very good sword.

[Brother Valerius]

The point is, it's only better writing in your opinion. If someone says they think the writing you find inferior is actually better, who are you to say that they're wrong? Sure, maybe you can break it down to "it's better because it follows x rule," but then you can ask the same thing about the rule you're using as a measuring stick. Why is your rule the proper way to judge good writing, and not some other rule? Eventually, you will break it down as far as you can, and find out that it's all subjective. There is absolutely no such thing as art which is "better" in an objective sense, only art which is better from your point of view.

So, wait, this book is not for critics? We aren't allowed to dislike it and be critical of it? I can't accept that premise.

 

Most of the time, I tend to see these things either evaluated by what might be considered 'authoritative' reviewers, or, by the balance of the audience. We're the audience and many of us don't like it, ergo, its a poor preformance and in the absence of recognised critics is unlikely to win 'critical acclaim'.

 

The whole idea that art can't be judged is preposterous. Of course we can then talk about the objectivity of the judgement, but you must remember that upon invoking that concept, to support a claim that no one can denounce the opinions of others you relinquish all claim to do the same. As it stands, we judge art all the time. We all made a favourable judgement call with regard to GeeDubs works at least once or we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

 

This actually bleeds into what I've observed as another culteral trend at the B&C that I don't approve of. The stifling of criticism of the Ultramarines, Codex: Marines, and, as we encounter here, the works of Ward in general. This trend of supression is something that I've seen come and go around here before though. So much of the value of a public discussion forum lies in the open exchange of ideas, when this is suppressed, the value is diminished. It is important that we're free to criticise works that we don't like. To generate works for public consumption is by its very nature an invitation to criticism.

 

There's nothing wrong with criticism. Just don't be mistaken, and think that your criticism is objective, and that it is binding upon everyone. That's the mistake here I feel is being made. Remember the post that got me started on this whole tangent:

 

You are willing to butcher older, better fluff to give Ward's abominations room to exist. Why?

 

That's the attitude that seems to dominate this discussion, and what I'm a bit miffed about. When one takes this attitude, they are implicitly stating that no other perspective but theirs is valid, and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot. I'm all for people saying "I don't like Ward's GK fluff." I don't like people saying "Ward's GK fluff is an abomination, and you're willing to butcher the old fluff for it. What's wrong with you?" There's way too much of the latter going on. :/

[Eddie Orlock]

That's the attitude that seems to dominate this discussion, and what I'm a bit miffed about. When one takes this attitude, they are implicitly stating that no other perspective but theirs is valid, and that anyone who disagrees is an idiot. I'm all for people saying "I don't like Ward's GK fluff." I don't like people saying "Ward's GK fluff is an abomination, and you're willing to butcher the old fluff for it. What's wrong with you?" There's way too much of the latter going on. :/

Would it be better to phrase that as 'I think Ward's fluff is abominable and am surprised that your willing to butcher commonly held views to accomodate it. How do you justify this act?'

 

Do we have to be so damn passive agressive about this. ;) Do we need to set culture of the forum to something where we can't openly speak our minds for fear of someones tears. A culture where people are afraid to post a controversial topic or be critical.

 

I'll further question the posting practice of quoting entire entries. I'd have to check the user agreement and the intelectual property laws, but I wonder if it's 'kosher' to quote posts in their entierty without the permission of it author. I also wonder if its a good use of the forums bandwidth and server space.

[Brother Valerius]

You can discuss a controversial topic without making it personal. You can be critical while being respectful. You're conflating two issues, but they are quite separate. I don't wish for people to refrain from disagreement, I'm highly in favor of respectful disagreement! I'm not decrying that, I'm decrying the lack of respect which seems to be creeping into this topic.

 

I'm also getting pretty far off on a tangent, so I should probably shut up now... ;)

[AoC]

Those two things aren't equivalent at all. The Grey Knights are the elite of the elite, and the supreme Grand Master is the very cream of that crop. He is arguably powerful enough to be a primarch himself. Then factor in the fact that Grey Knights are even better at fighting daemons than anything else. I don't think it's out of whack. Even if it was out of place (which it really isn't), the setting changes constantly. What was a valid basis for comparison ten years ago may no longer be a valid basis for comparison today.

To fight primarch, he would have to fight his entire world. Do you think that one man is able to take on whole deamonic world ruled by one of the most powerful daemons in universe ?

 

Yeah, he might be able to fight against said primarch with group of his buddies (100 gk killed 12 GD and Daemonic Primarch of World Eaters, while most of them died in process), but in the story we have just him taking on primarch and his honor guard for sure (i bet it have some GUO's with him), it's just to show how awesome he is and shows clearly that Ward have no idea about established background.

[Inache]

Well considering the actual fight isn't described we don't know what the battlefield disposition was. There have been instances before of parts of the warp being dragged into the real world, and a kind of coexistence takes place for a short while. Quite possibly some cultists opened up a rift that connected to Mortarion's palace. The Grey Knights show up to close the rift and find a Daemon Primarch waiting for them. Mortarion curb stomps the Supreme Grand Master, and Draigo takes over, and at the end of the battle as Mortarion lays defeated, Draigo adds insult to injury before sealing the rift.

 

Or Mortarion seeing how he's about to be defeated flees his corporeal form, leaving a husk that the carving is done on, and Mortarion later takes physical form again, but finds that since Draigo used some powerful psyker hoodoo while carving with a Nemesis Force Sword, the etching is bound to Mortarion's soul, so he'll always carry it even if he takes a different physical body. Hence eternal reminder.

 

People have always filled in the gray areas of the fluff with their own interpretation, but for some reason people just stop at face value with a lot of Matt Ward's stuff, and I think it's disingenuous to do so. Sometimes there will be little details that you don't really agree with, or find to be something of a stretch, but why can't you spin it to fit your interpretation?

 

You say Draigo can't beat Mortarion, fine, then it wasn't a one on one fight, he had the backing of the whole chapter, and all eight Grand Masters were involved in the binding.

 

Instead of saying, "This sucks and is an abomination" make it work for you. Use your explanation, fill it in how you see it. That's always been the beauty of a lot of fluff. It's left for you to interpret and decide.

 

Outright rejection of everything is getting old, and I'm to the point instead of debating and nitpicking over stuff just say, if you don't like it don't play it. Get over it and move on to something else. It's like some of you were shipping on two characters in a tv show then had a nervous breakdown when it didn't happen. This is the codex, love it, come to terms with it, or leave it. But all this hate is not conducive to others actually enjoying it.

[Aeddon]

Instead of saying, "This sucks and is an abomination" make it work for you. Use your explanation, fill it in how you see it....

I hate to break it to you but no matter how much sugar you put in your cup it still tastes like someone put :D in the coffee grounds.

 

That's my 2 cents on what I've read so far...

[Vindicatus]

Instead of saying, "This sucks and is an abomination" make it work for you. Use your explanation, fill it in how you see it....

I hate to break it to you but no matter how much sugar you put in your cup it still tastes like someone put :) in the coffee grounds.

 

That's my 2 cents on what I've read so far...

 

 

As Mythbusters proved : Yes, you can indeed polish a turd.

 

Shiny, flashy, eloquent, but a turd nonetheless.

 

(I found this mildly fitting. :P)

[Gree]

You say Draigo can't beat Mortarion, fine, then it wasn't a one on one fight, he had the backing of the whole chapter, and all eight Grand Masters were involved in the binding.

 

Draigo was described as beating Mortarion, his entire bodyguard and forcing him to his knees alone and unaided in the timeline section of the Codex.

[KnowThyEnemy]

i think the reason people have an issue with Draigo's fluff isn't because you don't think he can't take on a daemon primarch...its because...secretly...you don't WANT him to beat said primarch. I name thee HERETICS! :P . seriously though, i agree with some of the "geez, this is a bit much isn't it?" thoughts, but IMO fluff should not and CAN NOT be the end-all-be-all in a codex or in any BL books. Some authors lay out the history matter-of-fact and just give you straight facts such as "Grand Master so-and-so attacked Daemon Prince whats-his-name. Grand Master so-and-so had 103 terminators with him, plus 4 land raiders and supporting Razorbacks. Daemon Prince whats-his-name had 500 lesser daemons and 100 greater daemons. etc etc". Others give you pieces of what happen and expect you to fill in the blanks. I prefer those authors. It gives you, the consumer and player, a chance to immerse yourself into a world, use your imagination and think "I wonder what happened next...". Personal creativity shouldn't be replaced with other people's accounting of a fictional world just because other people don't like the "implications". Primarchs CAN be killed and they aren't necessarily the baddest guys out there (see: Chaos gods plus daemons that have been around for a really, REALLY long time). Criticism is always a good thing, but there is always two sides to the coin. Just because you, and the possible majority of people on this forum/post, dislike Ward and all his work, doesn't mean you are THE majority. Id be willing to bet theres a good amount of people out there happy we no longer have to walk across the field or DS and get shot to pieces. Or that when we do all those wonderous wounds, the other chap doesn't just say "Ha, check out my 2+ save and 4+ FNP". Im just saying, if you don't like the new stuff, thats your decision, but the fluff isn't the main point of this game, it just gives you something to identify with and things to imagine about. If it rankles you so much, I'm sure the Guard could always use more men ;)

[Oiad]

Rumor is that most of the studio doesn't have a good opinion of him but Alan Merrett wants to keep him around so there's that. :confused:

At this point we can only surmise that as BL/GW writers inhabit some of these online forums that they know of the reputation that precedes Matt Ward and his work. It's not hard to imagine that it's filtered through to others. Whether he knows this or not, Alan Merrett (at a guess) wouldn't care and keeps Matt Ward regardless because he fulfils a role in providing the kind of writing most appealing to GWs primary target market - boys, roughly 11-16. Call it cynical to say so but older fans are just extra dough, on the side. On the upside, FW publications like FW and Fantasy Games have older diehards in mind imo. Luckily one of them will be release fluff on the GKs soon. It's just a shame we have to put up with this cuss as being the most popular version for the next several years.

[Robotronic Erotic]

I just think the 'send a moon through the Warp' is not only silly, it's just lazy - if all else fails use the Warp.

[grayurst]

I look at it like this, some of the fluff is down right pulp and some of the rest is just silly. But nothing ever stays the same or constant in Warhammer fantasy or 40K. So I just read it for amusement, and to gain the feel of events and intentions of the latest army/codex creators. I don't always agree with them, but then again it is just science fantasy.