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Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion


Vindicatus

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If they were fighting side by side, then all of a sudden BLOODTIDE! and the GK's just started laying into the Sisters to hurry up and get some pure blood on them, it would have been kinda messed up. But better the sisters were martyred for the cause of the Emperor than consumed by daemons, am I right?

 

When the price you pay is going against everything you ever stood for?

No

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If they were fighting side by side, then all of a sudden BLOODTIDE! and the GK's just started laying into the Sisters to hurry up and get some pure blood on them, it would have been kinda messed up. But better the sisters were martyred for the cause of the Emperor than consumed by daemons, am I right?

 

When the price you pay is going against everything you ever stood for?

No

 

Aye, when you sacrifice your allies and then practically bathe yourself in their blood in order to not be corrupted even though you're incorruptible to begin with? Sounds like you've been hit by the Bloodtide already.

 

But then again, they've also got a fellow running around with a Daemon weapon (I don't care if he "activates" it or not, he's still using a damn Daemonic sword.) and it's perfectly cool. Sure! Let's make the GKs borderline radical/heretical! Oh, and Draigo's fluff... :D *facepalm*

 

EDIT: Ugh...I don't know why I'm so vocal about this fluff when I usually keep my complaints to a minimum, but, for some reason this fluff is REALLY aggravating.

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Still, the GK's came to clean up. If they need martyr blood to do so, welp.

 

If they were fighting side by side, then all of a sudden BLOODTIDE! and the GK's just started laying into the Sisters to hurry up and get some pure blood on them, it would have been kinda messed up. But better the sisters were martyred for the cause of the Emperor than consumed by daemons, am I right?

Nope.

 

Grey Knights go berserk and slaughter Sisters of Battle. If that is not falling to chaos/heresy than I'm not sure what is. Fail Mr. Ward, fail.

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How is that berserk? I think that somebody mentioned it earlier in this thread, that the Grey Knights are meant to protect against and fight daemons. That's it. If that means Exterminatus, so be it. If it means sterilizing, mind wiping, and resettling an entire hive world (See: First War of Armageddon), so be it. If beating the Bloodtide means killing Sisters of Battle to obtain the blood of martyrs for protective wards against said daemonic force, so be it. They might be Knights, and they might be in shining armor, but the Grey Knights are not knights in shining armor. The ultimate in ends justify the means.
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Still, the GK's came to clean up. If they need martyr blood to do so, welp.

 

If they were fighting side by side, then all of a sudden BLOODTIDE! and the GK's just started laying into the Sisters to hurry up and get some pure blood on them, it would have been kinda messed up. But better the sisters were martyred for the cause of the Emperor than consumed by daemons, am I right?

 

The entire business stinks of unclean sorcery. Using blood sacrifices to fight the daemonic screams Chaos. In fact an earlier section in the book flat out states that the Grey Knights use ''forbidden sorceries.'' Those are the exact words used. The Grey Knights appearantly use forbidden sorcery and then are described doing something that looks awfully like Chaos sorcery. even the phrasing (''Innocent blood'', ''turn their blades'') makes it sound like some sort of treacherous chaos ritual.

 

It doens't make them look awesome or cool, it makes them look like hypocrites and heretics to me. They should't need any protection. The Gk should be compeltely immune to the depratations of Chaos. If some Sisters came remain pure then the Grey Knights sure as heck can. It's repeatedly stated in the book that the Grey Knights are the purest of the pure and a section even talks about how they can wield forbidded sorcieres and artefacts safely because daemons cannot stand their souls.

 

Also, martyr implies they went to their deaths willingly. There is nothing that implies consent from the Sisters. You don't ''turn your blades'' on martyrs.

 

And yes, that section was one of the first I read when I got to look at the Codex, I went over it several times just to confirm it.

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By the way... since apparently GK use normal (not only 'shoulderless') Terminator Armour, too (Librarians) I went today and bought myself a plastic SW Terminator Lord, unpainted and unglued. SW, because he is more ornate and I don't like SM Librarian model, especially the lack of helmet.

 

So, things to do: GS a hood; cut helmet into GK like one; glue SB to the forearm; arm with GK weapon.

 

But then, I noticed I also have spare lion/wolf skin/cape in the mix. You know, the one that goes over the top of the model. Now I wonder, should I use it on the mini as well, as "trophy" (read - easy indicator who is IC) since new minis are holding 'trophies' now, or is that a bad idea? If it is good, how should I paint it? Daemon? Tiger-like? Exotic colours? If it is bad, where I can use it? On Terminator Inquisitor? Nowhere?

 

Any ideas?

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Still, the GK's came to clean up. If they need martyr blood to do so, welp.

 

If they were fighting side by side, then all of a sudden BLOODTIDE! and the GK's just started laying into the Sisters to hurry up and get some pure blood on them, it would have been kinda messed up. But better the sisters were martyred for the cause of the Emperor than consumed by daemons, am I right?

 

The entire business stinks of unclean sorcery. Using blood sacrifices to fight the daemonic screams Chaos. In fact an earlier section in the book flat out states that the Grey Knights use ''forbidden sorceries.'' Those are the exact words used. The Grey Knights appearantly use forbidden sorcery and then are described doing something that looks awfully like Chaos sorcery. even the phrasing (''Innocent blood'', ''turn their blades'') makes it sound like some sort of treacherous chaos ritual.

 

It doens't make them look awesome or cool, it makes them look like hypocrites and heretics to me. They should't need any protection. The Gk should be compeltely immune to the depratations of Chaos. If some Sisters came remain pure then the Grey Knights sure as heck can. It's repeatedly stated in the book that the Grey Knights are the purest of the pure and a section even talks about how they can wield forbidded sorcieres and artefacts safely because daemons cannot stand their souls.

 

Also, martyr implies they went to their deaths willingly. There is nothing that implies consent from the Sisters. You don't ''turn your blades'' on martyrs.

 

And yes, that section was one of the first I read when I got to look at the Codex, I went over it several times just to confirm it.

This^

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Forbidden sorceries can mean any number of things, including these are skills that are forbidden from lesser psykers. Do you think every sanctioned psyker runs around knowing how to generate Holocaust or Hammerhand? Or the Shrouding or the Quickening? No, these are skills forbidden to everyone except the Grey Knights and their Ordo Malleus allies, because they're the only ones who can use them safely.

 

And human sacrifice is nothing new to the Imperium. How many souls are sacrificed to the Golden Throne a day? And for how long?

 

And blood rites? Hmmm, yeah, isn't there a whole slew of chapters from a First Founding loyalist Space Marine chapter that kind of have a thing with blood? Fire to fight fire, blood of the holy to combat blood of the unclean.

 

And martyr doesn't mean go to death willingly. In fact, in most cases it means unwillingly, as in a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause. So dying for the survival of the Imperium makes them martyrs.

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Forbidden sorceries can mean any number of things, including these are skills that are forbidden from lesser psykers. Do you think every sanctioned psyker runs around knowing how to generate Holocaust or Hammerhand? Or the Shrouding or the Quickening? No, these are skills forbidden to everyone except the Grey Knights and their Ordo Malleus allies, because they're the only ones who can use them safely.

 

No, the key word is sorcery. Sorcery is Chaos.

 

Dark Heresy.

 

The Dark Art of

Sorcery

Sorcery, viewed in an objective and abstract way, can be seen as

the application of warpcraft, occult formulae, and the exercise of

will in order to achieve immediate physical and mental effects

much like those of psychic abilities. But unlike the usual psyker’s

disciplines, all that is required to perform such baleful miracles

is an understanding of the secret and sanity-twisting knowledge

of how to do so and the conviction and stomach to put such

knowledge into practice.

This malign and erratic sphere of human knowledge is

ultimately based on the power of the daemon, either through

channelling the powers of warp entities directly (or accidentally)

or using the warp to imbue the summoner with psychic power.

Some sorcerers claim their powers are a gift of their gods, but

many are apt to delude themselves that they practice what is

simply a little understood art or science—perilous, yes, but

unjustly maligned. Regardless, sorcery is playing with fire, as

the warp is a fickle, uncertain, and utterly dangerous thing with

its own inertia and its own diabolical intent.

As a result, “true sorcerers” of great power (individuals who

began their quest for esoteric power with no innate psychic

ability, but who owe their dark arts purely to forbidden learning

and pacts with the horrors beyond), are rare indeed, even among

malefic cults and the servants of the Ruinous Powers. However,

such obsessed, driven, and malignantly intelligent individuals

are among the most dangerous enemies the Holy Ordos can

face.

 

In fact the Grey Knights very creation describes them being thrown into the warp by sorcery.

 

And don't use in-game psychic powers as an example. Fluffwise Astartes Librarians use far more abitlties than what's described in the Codices. Read Dark Heresy for just s small taste of what psykers have.

 

And human sacrifice is nothing new to the Imperium. How many souls are sacrificed to the Golden Throne a day? And for how long?

 

That's just the Emperor. Imperial forces don't sacrifice humans with warp sorcery before battle usually.

 

And blood rites? Hmmm, yeah, isn't there a whole slew of chapters from a First Founding loyalist Space Marine chapter that kind of have a thing with blood? Fire to fight fire, blood of the holy to combat blood of the unclean.

 

Again, none of that is actually used in sorcerous rituals by said organizations. It's mostly ceromonial. And in any case said behavior is usually frowned upon by the Imperium at large. That's one of the reasons why some commanders refuse to fight alongside the Flesh Tearers.

 

In fact, I don't think I've ever read of another chapter deliberately slaughtering their allies and then covering themselves in their blood in what is implied to be a sorcerous ritual.

 

And martyr doesn't mean go to death willingly. In fact, in most cases it means unwillingly, as in a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause. So dying for the survival of the Imperium makes them martyrs.

 

Martyr implies they accepted their deaths or knew it would inspire others. There is nothing about that in the Codex.

 

In fact, if the GK where as incorruptable as they susposedly are then they would't need any kind of ritual. If the Sisters can survive fine, then the purest fo the pure, Astartes whose souls cannot be touched by daemons (As the GK Codex is found of reminding us) should be fine.

 

Instead they resort to blood sorcery, and implied treachery.

 

And that's not even getting into the fact that I find slaying women and covering themselves in blood to stop the Bloodtide personally offensive.

 

The thing that irked me about the Sisters of Battle bit in the book was that it was to prevent a Bloodthirster spreading the Bloodtide.

 

They killed women to stop the Bloodtide

 

So wrong on so many levels. :lol:

 

This.

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Forbidden sorceries can mean any number of things...

Ok true...

 

...including these are skills that are forbidden from lesser psykers. Do you think every sanctioned psyker runs around knowing how to generate Holocaust or Hammerhand? Or the Shrouding or the Quickening? No, these are skills forbidden to everyone except the Grey Knights and their Ordo Malleus allies, because they're the only ones who can use them safely.

"Forbidden" and "Sorceries" are not synonymous or mutually exclusive, even in the 40k universe.

 

And human sacrifice is nothing new to the Imperium. How many souls are sacrificed to the Golden Throne a day? And for how long?

Grey Knights being overwhelmed by the power of Khorne is a far cry from that.

 

And blood rites? Hmmm, yeah, isn't there a whole slew of chapters from a First Founding loyalist Space Marine chapter that kind of have a thing with blood? Fire to fight fire, blood of the holy to combat blood of the unclean.

Blood Angels come to mind...I don't really remember them slaughtering imperial citizens in order to obtain it though.

 

And martyr doesn't mean go to death willingly. In fact, in most cases it means unwillingly, as in a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause. So dying for the survival of the Imperium makes them martyrs.

Well technically it can mean a person who willingly suffers death it just doesn't always. Either way, we're arguing semantics here.

 

Grey Knights being overcome by the powers of chaos (which is exactly what is described, like it or not) after only just arriving while the Sisters of Battle remain pure after fighting a drawn out conflict is contradictory to all established fluff on the subject.

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That's a whole Nikea debate. Context is everything, and with such florid prose, the likening of pskyer to sorcerer is going to surface. Plus don't dictate that I can't use in-game rules to define fluff when you pull from an RPG that's not even from GW, only licensed by. :D That being said, I respect the fluff of all the Fantasy Flight stuff, and find it to be a useful addition to the lore.

 

And thrown into the warp by Malcador. The Sigilete. The Right Hand of the Emperor. The Emperor's Voice. The Regent of Terra. The man who gave his last breath so the Emperor could have final words. So Malcador was a chaos sorcerer? I name thee heretic.

 

The Grey Knights are the Emperor's chosen. The last line of defense. They make the call. I'm not saying human sacrifice is a normal practice, but humans are sacrificed for the good of humanity all the time in 40k. On the battlefield, and off, people are the one commodity the Imperium does not lack. They are expendable. See: Imperial Guard

 

Martyr has several meanings.

1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.

3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.

4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

 

Having not read the fluff sans the snippet posted earlier, I can't say for sure what state the Sisters were in, but obviously the GK Strike Force commander deemed it necessary for the protection of his men. As far as I can tell the Grey Knights had never faced the Bloodtide before, and were going in blind. Obviously they've had experience with other Khornate blood daemons, so they took a page out of the Liber Daemonica. Blood of Innocents (but then Innocence, proves nothing, right?) to combat the most vile blood daemon.

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GKs are not being overwhelmed by chaos.

 

They are making a pragmatic decision.

 

The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

 

The GKs needed to get into the heart of the corrupting bloodtide in order to stop it.

 

Dead sisters are not as bad as possessed GKs.

 

Therefore, they made the decision to kill the sisters. They used their blood to mark out sigils of purity on their armor (I think forming additional warding to combine with their aegis networks) in order to stop the blood tide. The codex actually describes the blood tide as parting before them (I think).

 

This allowed them to stop it and prevent calamity from occurring.

 

Honestly, I know people make fun of ward's fluff (and some of it is OTT), but I kind of like the new fluff (as a whole). I like the fact the GKs are presented as warrior mages and not angels. It feels more gritty and grim-dark.

 

 

btw: anyone want to talk about the terminis decree? hmm?

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That's a whole Nikea debate. Context is everything, and with such florid prose, the likening of pskyer to sorcerer is going to surface. Plus don't dictate that I can't use in-game rules to define fluff when you pull from an RPG that's not even from GW, only licensed by. :D That being said, I respect the fluff of all the Fantasy Flight stuff, and find it to be a useful addition to the lore.

 

That section was part of the fluff part of the rulebook. I was't describing the Dark Heresy rules anywhere. I was talking about fluff.

 

And thrown into the warp by Malcador. The Sigilete. The Right Hand of the Emperor. The Emperor's Voice. The Regent of Terra. The man who gave his last breath so the Emperor could have final words. So Malcador was a chaos sorcerer? I name thee heretic.

 

Yeah, going off by the codex description it sure sounds alot like chaos sorcery. Throwing you and others into the Warp is almost never a good idea. it's implied they spent some time in their.

 

This is why Ward's fluff if bad. It makes Malcador and the Emperor look like hypocrites.

 

The Grey Knights are the Emperor's chosen. The last line of defense. They make the call. I'm not saying human sacrifice is a normal practice, but humans are sacrificed for the good of humanity all the time in 40k. On the battlefield, and off, people are the one commodity the Imperium does not lack. They are expendable. See: Imperial Guard

 

They may have started out as that, but I certainly honestly can't see them as that now. Human sacrifice in a warp ritual? Fighting alongside xenos (Jokareo) and daemonhosts? Having warp enetites run alongside you in battle( The Ghost Knight Linkin Park angst thing)

 

They are described as the Emperor's last line of defense, but they come across Radicals and borderline heretics than anything else.

 

Martyr has several meanings.
1. a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.

2. a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause: a martyr to the cause of social justice.

3. a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering: a martyr to severe headaches.

4. a person who seeks sympathy or attention by feigning or exaggerating pain, deprivation, etc.

 

First of all where did you get that definition from? The link?

 

You might have a point if the whole passage did't have the thing come across as a sacrifice rather than something solemm and noble for the Grey Knights to do. I can't recall any kind of ''martrydom'' that invovled borderline chaos sorcery and blood sacrifice.

 

Having not read the fluff sans the snippet posted earlier, I can't say for sure what state the Sisters were in, but obviously the GK Strike Force commander deemed it necessary for the protection of his men. As far as I can tell the Grey Knights had never faced the Bloodtide before, and were going in blind. Obviously they've had experience with other Khornate blood daemons, so they took a page out of the Liber Daemonica. Blood of Innocents (but then Innocence, proves nothing, right?) to combat the most vile blood daemon.

 

The Sisters had remained and where still fighting. they were stated to be pure. The Grey Knights, meanwhile are repeatedly stated to be the purest of the pure in the book. It's talked about how the daemon can take no hold on them. They arn't going in blind if at least some of the Sisters where pure. If Sisters can survive intact then GK sure can.

 

Unclean sorcery should not have been necessary at all.

 

Dead sisters are not as bad as possessed GKs.

 

But they can't be possesed by a daemon. That's the whole point. they can't be corrupted or controled by daemons.

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But they can't be possesded by a daemon. That's the whole point. they can't be corrupted or controled by daemons.

 

That's the rub.

 

You see. I believe that. I think that's the most intrinsic part of the fluff of the Grey Knights. They are the purest of the pure, the most holy warriors of the God-Emperor's Imperium.

 

So when I get told Grey Knights use the blood of Sisters of Battle to combat the Bloodtide, there was a reason.

 

When Titan is cast into the warp to give the Grey Knights time to found themselves, there was a reason.

 

When they fight next to Jokero artificers and daemonhosts summoned by Inquisitors, there must be a reason.

 

You know why? Because they are pure. They are incorruptible. So instead of attacking the fluff, work with it. If you think they're so incorruptible, why would they do these things? Is there a reason? Or are Grey Knights not pure now? Because you can't have it both ways, espousing the purity of them and damning them in the same breath.

 

And, here's the link, for your own personal vocabulary edification.

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The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

Yes and this is a key point because the Grey Knights WERE caught up in the bloodtide and (according to Mr. Ward) were corrupted and made impure.

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So when I get told Grey Knights use the blood of Sisters of Battle to combat the Bloodtide, there was a reason.

 

They should't. If they can't get affected then why are they using blood sorcery to combat themselves?

 

It makes no sense.

 

When Titan is cast into the warp to give the Grey Knights time to found themselves, there was a reason.

 

But we arn't told it at all. Instead it looks suspicous and stupid.

 

When they fight next to Jokero artificers and daemonhosts summoned by Inquisitors, there must be a reason.

 

There is no reason provided. In prior fluff no GK would fight alonside a daemonhost. Then it's changed without any kind of explantion.

 

You know why? Because they are pure. They are incorruptible.

 

No, that doesn't justify it at all. We are told one thing, then we are confronted by another thing that seemingly contridicts it.

 

So instead of attacking the fluff, work with it.

 

Why? I see obvious holes in Ward's poorly written fluff and I take great pleasure in pointing them out. I see no reason to work with something that makes no sense.

 

If you think they're so incorruptible, why would they do these things? Is there a reason? Or are Grey Knights not pure now? Because you can't have it both ways, espousing the purity of them and damning them in the same breath.

 

Actually I'm not really doing that. I'm pointing out that they are susposed to be pure going by the codex, yet going by that same Codex they take actions that would indicate they are not. It's full of contridictions.

 

They are ethier so pure they logically should't need to slather blood in an unclean ritual on their armor, or they are hypocrites who do practice sorcery.

 

The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

Yes and this is a key point because the Grey Knights WERE caught up in the bloodtide and (according to Mr. Ward) were corrupted and made impure.

 

Which, going by Ward's own Codex, should be impossible since he descirbes how incorruptable they are earlier in great detail.

 

It's like Ward can't keep his own fluff straight in his own Codex.

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You know why? Because they are pure. They are incorruptible. So instead of attacking the fluff, work with it. If you think they're so incorruptible, why would they do these things? Is there a reason? Or are Grey Knights not pure now? Because you can't have it both ways, espousing the purity of them and damning them in the same breath.

 

Honestly it's looking like Sisters may take the title of 'most resistant to corruption' from the Grey Knights. After all, they resisted the Blood Tide, the Grey Kngihts couldn't. Unless the Grey Knights could, which would make the slaughter pointless, especially when there are still enemies to fight.

 

So either the Grey Knights are not as resistant to corruption and thus needed to take it (Somehow) or they are teamkilling asses when there is still a foe to fight.

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The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

Yes and this is a key point because the Grey Knights WERE caught up in the bloodtide and (according to Mr. Ward) were corrupted and made impure.

 

What codex are you reading??

 

It says absolutely NOTHING about GKs getting corrupted by the bloodtide. NOTHING ABOUT THEM BEING IMPURE!

 

It says (practically ver batum):

 

"In order to counteract the bloodtide, they needed a talisman of purity. Upon arriving, their first act was to turn their blades on the sisters, using their blood to form sigils of protection. blah blah blah... fighting into the heart of the infestation and killing blood thirster, etc"

 

I don't know if you haven't read it, or just read it quickly, but there is no mention WHAT SO EVER of the GKs being corrupted.

 

As for possessed marines, I meant corrupted. GKs, with all of their forbidden knowledge, corrupted by chaos would spell the doom of entire sectors of the imperium.

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You know why? Because they are pure. They are incorruptible. So instead of attacking the fluff, work with it. If you think they're so incorruptible, why would they do these things? Is there a reason? Or are Grey Knights not pure now? Because you can't have it both ways, espousing the purity of them and damning them in the same breath.

 

Honestly it's looking like Sisters may take the title of 'most resistant to corruption' from the Grey Knights. After all, they resisted the Blood Tide, the Grey Kngihts couldn't. Unless the Grey Knights could, which would make the slaughter pointless, especially when there are still enemies to fight.

 

So either the Grey Knights are not as resistant to corruption and thus needed to take it (Somehow) or they are teamkilling asses when there is still a foe to fight.

 

I direct you to my previous statement:

 

GKs are not being overwhelmed by chaos.

 

They are making a pragmatic decision.

 

The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

 

The GKs needed to get into the heart of the corrupting bloodtide in order to stop it.

 

The sisters did not get caught in the blood tide, those that were corrupted did, but those that were pure were so only because they were not yet exposed to it.

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As for possessed marines, I meant corrupted. GKs, with all of their forbidden knowledge, corrupted by chaos would spell the doom of entire sectors of the imperium.

 

Despite that Ward talks about hoe GK are he purest of the pure who can't be corrupted.

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Dead sisters are not as bad as possessed GKs.

 

I'd like to mention something about the fact that the silver hexagrammical wards inlaid beneath their skin would make them pop like overripes oranges dropping off trees the moment corruption touched their minds.

 

To date, no Grey Knight has ever fallen to corruption or ceded to heresy. "Turning your blades" on your allies in the midst of a battle screams of a rushed decision done in poor judgement, and vilified by the very action. This is not something that the Grey Knights do. Ever. They are the most puritanical group of warriors that exist within the Imperium, and subjecting themselves to the rigours of the arcane malaise that is Chaos Sorcery would set them off like a match-head.

 

Sorry, not buying it. Fail-fluff is made of fail and botulism.

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I direct you to my previous statement:

 

GKs are not being overwhelmed by chaos.

 

They are making a pragmatic decision.

 

The sisters were never caught up in the full fury of the bloodtide, and so were not corrupted.

 

The GKs needed to get into the heart of the corrupting bloodtide in order to stop it.

 

The sisters did not get caught in the blood tide, those that were corrupted did, but those that were pure were so only because they were not yet exposed to it.

 

Except I recall nothing in it saying the Sisters were not hit full force by it. Not all of them were unaffected but it didn't say, to my knowledge, that the Sisters were not hit full force by the Blood Tide.

 

And how would taking the blood be a pragmatic decision? If they are as incorruptable as the codex claims, the would not need protection vs corruption that they do not already have. You do not have to shore up a weakness if you are untouchable in that area.

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Maybe, its not so much as being corrupted, as being killed out right by the bloodtide.

 

They walked right up to the Bloodthirster and killed it, the Bloodtide was repulsed by the blood of the Sisters. They walked unscathed through a daemonic force that obliterated star systems

 

That reason enough for you? :RTBBB:

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