Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Darkmagi]

Interesting factoid, I think Matt Ward knew exactly what he was doing to the fluff of the GK... there's an interview in the new white dwarf... pg. 24 bottom of paragraph 1... I'm not sure how much of it I can say due to IP but if you have access to the white dwarf article you will see what i mean.

[Aeddon]

Interesting factoid, I think Matt Ward knew exactly what he was doing to the fluff of the GK... there's an interview in the new white dwarf... pg. 24 bottom of paragraph 1... I'm not sure how much of it I can say due to IP but if you have access to the white dwarf article you will see what i mean.

Yup, and from the way it is written it sounds like Ward is positively thrilled that he has been able to "skew things" in the GK fluff. I'm not sure how else to take this other than Mat Ward deliberately altered and warped the GK fluff in order to turn the shining light of the emperor's glory into mere "shades of grey". He's an ass and I hate him.

[Notanoob]

Interesting factoid, I think Matt Ward knew exactly what he was doing to the fluff of the GK... there's an interview in the new white dwarf... pg. 24 bottom of paragraph 1... I'm not sure how much of it I can say due to IP but if you have access to the white dwarf article you will see what i mean.

Just quote him will you please?

[AlexHolker]

Yup, and from the way it is written it sounds like Ward is positively thrilled that he has been able to "skew things" in the GK fluff. I'm not sure how else to take this other than Mat Ward deliberately altered and warped the GK fluff in order to turn the shining light of the emperor's glory into mere "shades of grey". He's an ass and I hate him.

The worst part of this is that Ward didn't add these "shades of grey" - the Grey Knights were already men who had sacrificed their humanity to become amoral weapons capable of fighting Chaos. He just turned them into heretics.

[Sothalor]

The new White Dwarf interview with Ward makes it clear that the Grey Knights are now the epitome of Radicalism.

 

I personally think that was the wrong direction to go to incorporate more "shades of gray," if you'll pardon the pun. The GK background that already existed contained lots of potential for exploring their darker aspects without going off the deep end. They were for instance utterly ruthless when dealing with the aftermath of daemonic incursions - allies that fought alongside them would be mind-wiped at best, exterminated at worst because the mere experience and knowledge of what had happened was considered an unacceptable risk. Having them bathe in the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle to prepare for a battle is just... crass and juvenile.

 

Why not explore instead the aftermaths of those daemonic incursions the Knights clean up so tidily? Have a scene where the exhausted remnants of some hapless Guard regiment is celebrating a hard fought victory when the silver-armored Marines that mysteriously appeared to aid them in their darkest hour suddenly open fire on them or teleport out right before an orbital bombardment opens up on them? It deconstructs the whole "good guy paladin" image, which Ward was going for, it fits established 40k background, and it's aligned with what the Grey Knights are already known to do.

 

 

The same thing applies to their psychic abilities. Ward says he uses the term sorcery "deliberately." He says they're "sorcerers all," "but ones who use their powers for the defense of Mankind."

 

I think it would have made much more sense and been far more effective to just highlight this dramatic irony that has been present in 40k - that despite its rhetoric and its official stance, the Imperium ultimately relies on psykers for its very existence. That its reliance on psykers extends from travel and communication to combating the very thing which is the greatest risk anywhere there is a psyker: the daemonic incursion and invasion of reality.

 

Just saying "oh they're all sorcerers haha" simultaneously slaps fans of established background in the face *and* misses an opportunity to explore the Grey Knights in a meaningful way. We're told that no Grey Knight has ever turned to Chaos or turned traitor. All right, fine. That seems like the sort of thing that would be an integral part of the identity and self-view of any Knight. Does that make some of them prideful and "cocky" about their use of psychic abilities and eager to cut loose? Are others "reluctant psykers" and unwilling to frequently use their powers, not wanting to be the first to fall to Chaos and blemish the chapter's name and history? Do they then prefer martial might and technology, only employing their powers in the most dire circumstances?

 

 

I just.... reading Ward's interview and his thought and design processes makes me so disappointed because I think there was just so much missed potential here.

[Skyhawk]

This makes things even worse then I ever could imagine.

 

"I broke it for fun and kicks, HA HA, LOLZ at you all!" - Matt Ward

 

Sic!... Who is working in that darn company these days?

 

Melanholic hit the nail on the head - I too would like to see such concept in the dex.

[Inache]

Welp, I take it all back. ^_^

[Iron Lord]

Having them bathe in the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle to prepare for a battle is just... crass and juvenile.

Agreed- though it's phrased in the WD as "to get the blood for a ritual to banish the daemon"

 

"Super-pragmatist" was a good idea- but the way it was handled, less so.

[Gree]

You know, I was actually planning to start Grey Knights before this. Then I read Ward's fluff in the leaked Codex online and then the Codex itself,. Now with the interview I don't think I'll be planning to start Grey Knights. I play armies because of the background, and currently I can't play Grey Knights because of the................ I'll be diplomatic and just say changes that Ward has done.

[Validar]

You know, I was actually planning to start Grey Knights before this. Then I read Ward's fluff in the leaked Codex online and then the Codex itself,. Now with the interview I don't think I'll be planning to start Grey Knights. I play armies because of the background, and currently I can't play Grey Knights because of the................ I'll be diplomatic and just say changes that Ward has done.

 

I have collected GK and Inq ever since I started about 1½ year ago. I loved their fluff, their minis, they were so awesome... I followed all rumours on them closely, really exited that they were getting a new dex...

 

Then, the fluff Heresy. The great betrayal.

 

You took That Which Was Awesome and you destroyed it. You ripped it appart piece by piece and turned the grim, dark, mysterious heroes of the Ordo Malleus into a walking joke.

 

Emperor have mercy on your soul, Ward, for I will not.

[Notanoob]

Welp, I take it all back. :)

Victor at last, Ward has managed to alienate even his most ardent supporters! :) Ward and all this 5th edition fluff!

[Inache]

I'll just wait for AD-B to hopefully fix it. Doesn't mean that I won't still play the GK's just like I've wanted to since the first time I was introduced to them though.

[gil galed]

I'll just wait for AD-B to hopefully fix it. Doesn't mean that I won't still play the GK's just like I've wanted to since the first time I was introduced to them though.

 

I'm entirely of the opinion BL writers (specifically with the calibre of ADB) should take over codex writing, because it's all getting a bit silly now, plus Wards very name now infuriates me.

 

~Gil :lol:

[sonofblood]

I'm just going to pretend the parts I don't like didn't happen and stick to the 3rd Ed fluff for them short of things such as organization(which was never really devled into before and which I have no problem with short of the 1000 marines vs 3000.)

[Chairman_woo]

Man I feel like such an Alien whenever I visit codex fluff threads lately. Ive been playing since 2nd ed and none of the 5th ed codexes have offended my sensibilities in the slightest (dont get me wrong nothing is prefect, but thats the world we live in).

 

2nd ed fluff was silly, like really silly, far sillier than it is now (but I still love it). 3rd ed did make everything a little more "grimdark" but mostly cut everything down and I fear a enormous volume of people now playing 40k started somewhere between 3rd and 4th ed where the fluff was often so bare/simple that it gave people alot (sometimes too much) of space to interpret/imagine.

5th has braught a little of that sillyness/epicness back and the codex designers (emperor bless them) have actually been allowed to try and create something new and interesting. Matt ward is one of those people, he played and read 2nd ed just like I did, and like all of the 3 active designers he tries to ballance the recent past (3rd and 4th ed) with the distant past (RT and 2nd ed) and most importantly the future/present i.e. something new and interesting. That last bit is a minefield, but you dont make an omelette without breaking a few eggs and I suspect there would be just as much complaining if he'd just left things as they were! I'd rather they haddent bothered at all than simply rehasshed the old material in exactly the same way, and for me at least he did a perfectly decent job (far from the worst, some of the 3rd and 4th ed books are pretty lame by comparisson).

His only failing is that he went up against our expectations, a test he was always going to fail (just like the other 2) at because we as a community are physicaly impossible to please.

 

The idea that the GK are more flexible, open minded and most importantly BALLANCED than basicaly any other branch of the imperium makes perfect sense to me. It ties neatly with the idea that GK are wize enough to understand that ultimately sorcery is simply the knowlage, wisdom and will to manipulate the immaterium consciously just like the emperor himself did constantly, I might go so far as to argue that a large part of what made him awsome was the depth of his perception and comprehention of how the imaterium interplays with the material universe, something only the greatest deamons, gods and mystics share. The Grey Knights being as they are one of the emperors last ditched efforts to prepare for life after the Heresy, and being born of his geneseed and following in his ideals it makes sense that the pragmatic, quasi secular attitude of their father would persist. The emperor had no religious or superstitious inclinations, even the chaos gods were to be seen as another entity that inhabits the universe to be understood, tho clearly his understanding was that they were mostly very very bad eggs with the potential to enslave and destroy mankind. Whilst contempt and hate of such deamonic powers is still very important (and usefull) it does not prevent an intelegent, educated and self asured individual from attempting to understand the nature of their being, and the ways in which they operate, are vunerable etc.

The Emperor would almost always put Pragmatism before tradition, I dont see why his chapter should be any different. If nothing else it seems like the GK's very creation was to create an institution uncorruptable enough to remain pragmatic and free of superstition in the comming dark days of deamons and holymen.

[Gree]

2nd edition did't have anything like Draigo.

 

What Ward did is changing GK from being the pure knights of incorruptability into being sorcerers, a term heavily associted with chaos. Ward may have had a good idea, but his execution of it was done rather poorly, especially when we have so many other Chapters who could fit that sort of thing better, like Blood Ravens, Exorcists, Relictors.

 

Sorcerers are what the Thousand Sons has as an archtype Pre-Heresy. It fits them. Grey Knights are not Sorcerers and nor does it fit them honestly in my opinion.

 

The emperor had no religious or superstitious inclinations, even the chaos gods were to be seen as another entity that inhabits the universe to be understood, tho clearly his understanding was that they were mostly very very bad eggs with the potential to enslave and destroy mankind. Whilst contempt and hate of such deamonic powers is still very important (and usefull) it does not prevent an intelegent, educated and self asured individual from attempting to understand the nature of their being, and the ways in which they operate, are vunerable etc.

 

That's pretty much the entire Radical belief summed up in a single paragraph. That kind of reasoning would work for the Relictors, but not for the Grey Knights.

[Notanoob]

@Chairman_woo

2nd Edition was like RT, that edition when things were still fairly unstable and flexible. Sillyness was fine back then because that's how it was back then. But now it's more serious, and comes with established rules and definitions for everything. There is still room to expand and create, but within a set of rules.

 

Mat Ward has gone off and broken those rules. He's screwing around with a serious and deep universe 'just cuz lol' and really ruining the experience for us. On top of that his sillyness is poorly executed and comes off as just bad writing, not intentionally funny stuff like Orks.

 

However, it's worth saying that the only 5th edition codex that hasn't offended my sense is the Dark Eldar one, everything else can go home.

[Justcar]

Man I feel like such an Alien whenever I visit codex fluff threads lately. Ive been playing since 2nd ed and none of the 5th ed codexes have offended my sensibilities in the slightest (dont get me wrong nothing is prefect, but thats the world we live in).

 

2nd ed fluff was silly, like really silly, far sillier than it is now (but I still love it). 3rd ed did make everything a little more "grimdark" but mostly cut everything down and I fear a enormous volume of people now playing 40k started somewhere between 3rd and 4th ed where the fluff was often so bare/simple that it gave people alot (sometimes too much) of space to interpret/imagine.

5th has braught a little of that sillyness/epicness back and the codex designers (emperor bless them) have actually been allowed to try and create something new and interesting. Matt ward is one of those people, he played and read 2nd ed just like I did, and like all of the 3 active designers he tries to ballance the recent past (3rd and 4th ed) with the distant past (RT and 2nd ed) and most importantly the future/present i.e. something new and interesting. That last bit is a minefield, but you dont make an omelette without breaking a few eggs and I suspect there would be just as much complaining if he'd just left things as they were! I'd rather they haddent bothered at all than simply rehasshed the old material in exactly the same way, and for me at least he did a perfectly decent job (far from the worst, some of the 3rd and 4th ed books are pretty lame by comparisson).

His only failing is that he went up against our expectations, a test he was always going to fail (just like the other 2) at because we as a community are physicaly impossible to please.

 

The idea that the GK are more flexible, open minded and most importantly BALLANCED than basicaly any other branch of the imperium makes perfect sense to me. It ties neatly with the idea that GK are wize enough to understand that ultimately sorcery is simply the knowlage, wisdom and will to manipulate the immaterium consciously just like the emperor himself did constantly, I might go so far as to argue that a large part of what made him awsome was the depth of his perception and comprehention of how the imaterium interplays with the material universe, something only the greatest deamons, gods and mystics share. The Grey Knights being as they are one of the emperors last ditched efforts to prepare for life after the Heresy, and being born of his geneseed and following in his ideals it makes sense that the pragmatic, quasi secular attitude of their father would persist. The emperor had no religious or superstitious inclinations, even the chaos gods were to be seen as another entity that inhabits the universe to be understood, tho clearly his understanding was that they were mostly very very bad eggs with the potential to enslave and destroy mankind. Whilst contempt and hate of such deamonic powers is still very important (and usefull) it does not prevent an intelegent, educated and self asured individual from attempting to understand the nature of their being, and the ways in which they operate, are vunerable etc.

The Emperor would almost always put Pragmatism before tradition, I dont see why his chapter should be any different. If nothing else it seems like the GK's very creation was to create an institution uncorruptable enough to remain pragmatic and free of superstition in the comming dark days of deamons and holymen.

 

You are my hero.

 

Honestly, I need to stop listening to this thread. Instead of a discussion on the fluff, it has turned into a bashing of codex authors and the codex in general.

 

There may be some things that you do not like (There are some things that I don't like), but people need to remember that this is all a game! This universe exists in our collective imaginations, so if you do not like something you can change it to suit you.

 

Honestly, I do not see the Grey Knights being radicalized. Sorcery is what the unlearned would label their powers, but a label is a label.

 

Honestly, I think the fluff (on the whole) is good. Not great, but good. I actually like the way the Grey Knights are presented, as warrior mages. They possess knowledge that no one else is capable of knowing. They use powers that no man can wield. They destroy foes no one can vanquish. They feel darker, not quite as shiny and pure as they were, but this makes them feel more real to me. They are not afraid to use their powers, powers that lesser men would condemn, but they know more than anyone else could know. They know what they do is right.

 

Anyways, I won't let something as trivial as this stop me from playing an army that I have wanted to start for 4 years and I encourage others not too as well.

 

BTW: the Emperor would view almost everything in his Imperium as heretical in nature.

[Chairman_woo]

The emperor had no religious or superstitious inclinations, even the chaos gods were to be seen as another entity that inhabits the universe to be understood, tho clearly his understanding was that they were mostly very very bad eggs with the potential to enslave and destroy mankind. Whilst contempt and hate of such deamonic powers is still very important (and usefull) it does not prevent an intelegent, educated and self asured individual from attempting to understand the nature of their being, and the ways in which they operate, are vunerable etc.

 

That's pretty much the entire Radical belief summed up in a single paragraph. That kind of reasoning would work for the Relictors, but not for the Grey Knights.

 

So the fact their mandate commes from the empeor himself, who created the order and which uses his gene seed is irrelevant? My entire point is that the new GK fluff paints them as one of the emperors last efforts to try and save his dreams of humanitys future, and preserve the largely secret knowlage of what deamons are and how to fight them. The GK to some extent embody the pragmatic and selfless attitude of the big man himself shurely? The fact that some petty (but powerfull) inquisitors and the like have a big problem with radicals may be a big deal to the relictors but the GK are beyond their scrutiny, and know better than that anyway.

 

The emperor could/would be labeled a radical by most of the inquisitions standards, I agree with you there. But this is a nightmare grimdark post herresy imperium, and the GK were created just after the herresy by "teh emprah" seems like they would care little for such unenlightened attitudes, and are well beyond the scrutiny of all but the most senior imperial officials and even then in a limited capacity.

[Gree]

So the fact their mandate commes from the empeor himself, who created the order and which uses his gene seed is irrelevant?

 

That is nothing more than a rather poor justification written into the Codex to justify said changes. And the Emperor created them, but he never assited in their training or survived to see them actually deployed in battle.

 

My entire point is that the new GK fluff paints them as one of the emperors last efforts to try and save his dreams of humanitys future, and preserve the largely secret knowlage of what deamons are and how to fight them.

 

They would be good if Ward could present them like that, but like the rest of his Codex his execution is lacking sadly.

 

The GK to some extent embody the pragmatic and selfless attitude of the big man himself shurely?

 

No, the Emperor had an issue with using the powers of Chaos actually. He was pragmatic when it suited him, but he would never use daemon weapons to fight an enemy like a radical would. He was implied to have made a deel with Chaos to create the primarchs in A First Heretic and it backfired when the Heresy came about.

 

The fact that some petty (but powerfull) inquisitors and the like have a big problem with radicals may be a big deal to the relictors but the GK are beyond their scrutiny, and know better than that anyway.

 

Those Inquistors are hardly petty. Radicialism was almost always self-destructive. The GK previously where pure and puritan because they did't engage in such things and they avoided the influence of the daemonic at all costs, they where the ultra-puritans. Now Ward has made them into radicals and put forth some poor justifications. They seemingly can now do anything.

 

Marines have always suffered from the Mary Sue syndrome, but the new GK Codex takes it to higher levels.

 

The emperor could/would be labeled a radical by most of the inquisitions standards, I agree with you there.

 

Actually I don't. I never called the Emperor a radical. The Emperor never used forbidden sorcery nor do he use daemonhosts or daemon weapons.

 

I agree with you there. But this is a nightmare grimdark post herresy imperium, and the GK were created just after the herresy by "teh emprah" seems like they would care little for such unenlightened attitudes, and are well beyond the scrutiny of all but the most senior imperial officials and even then in a limited capacity.

 

Not really. Ward said in the interview he made them as sorcerers. The GK Codex is rife with sorcery. Ward himself said they weren't the pragmatists, they where sorcerers. The Emperor did't see warp power as sorcery, his saw it as psychic power. There is a differece.

[Inache]

The Emperor never used forbidden sorcery nor do he use daemonhosts or daemon weapons.

 

Do we really know that? How many times have we seen the Emperor fight? But didn't the Emperor forbid Magnus from doing the exact things he was doing? Hypocrisy for the sake of expediency was nothing new to the Emperor.

 

Just got done reading Ben Counter's Sacrifice in Victories of the Space Marines. Very awesome.

 

 

In fact Alaric raises the point of pragmatism and sacrifice versus the good of the Imperium as a whole, but at the end of the day says, "I can allow nothing to trouble me. If we turn our thoughts to these things, we lose our focus. Our sense of duty is eroded. If our task is not worth sacrifice, then no task is."

 

 

I haven't read the interview, but if Matt Ward did intend to cast shades of gray about the GK's, then shame on him, but at the same time, after reading Sacrifices I think my original interpretation of the fluff is validated.

[Justcar]

No, the Emperor had an issue with using the powers of Chaos actually. He was pragmatic when it suited him, but he would never use daemon weapons to fight an enemy like a radical would. He was implied to have made a deel with Chaos to create the primarchs in A First Heretic and it backfired when the Heresy came about.

 

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

[Marmande]

At this point we can only surmise that as BL/GW writers inhabit some of these online forums that they know of the reputation that precedes Matt Ward and his work. It's not hard to imagine that it's filtered through to others. Whether he knows this or not, Alan Merrett (at a guess) wouldn't care and keeps Matt Ward regardless because he fulfils a role in providing the kind of writing most appealing to GWs primary target market - boys, roughly 11-16.

 

That goes by the assumption that even 11-16 year olds wouldn't pick up on how dumb this all is. ;)

[Notanoob]

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

It used to be they wouldn't fight along side Radical Inquisitors, who can be easily identified by their collection of demonic stuff. Like demon weapons and demonhosts. They now fight along side them. Sure, Crowe just carries it, but the reasoning behind it is poor.

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

So then why do Grey Knights banish demons instead of bind them all the time? And do you even have a source that backs that claim up?

 

You say it takes away their power, then why is it that enemies near Crowe get benfits? Why would the Grey Knights take objects that activly corrupt those around them when they are trying to destroy that corruption? Isn't that taking one step forward and one step back?

 

Also, what guarantee do you have that a bound demon can never escape? You don't! They can become 'unbound' by those in the know, and even then the corrupt those around them and often lead to some kind of possession and demonic incursion. This is what the Grey Knights and Inquisition are trying to prevent.

 

Furthermore, the idea that Crowe should be carrying around the weapon isn't heresy, it's dumb. Grey Knights are incorruptible. Fact. Says so in everything ever written about them. None have ever fallen to chaos ever. So there is no risk for any Grey Knights to be corrupted by it, but there is a risk to others. As such it should be kept away from them, somewhere that no non-GKs ever go right? How about Titan? Perfect. It's safe. But no! The most pure of the purest guys ever needs to hold it, risk loosing the thing in battle, and corrupting any non-GK he comes across. He's a terrible place to put the thing on the battlefield, as he's a W1 guy who can't even hide in a unit, and is thus extremely vulnerable dying. Yet the GK, in all their wisdom, decide to put it with him on the front lines? Absolutely ridiculous.

[Gree]

The Emperor never used forbidden sorcery nor do he use daemonhosts or daemon weapons.

 

Do we really know that? How many times have we seen the Emperor fight? But didn't the Emperor forbid Magnus from doing the exact things he was doing? Hypocrisy for the sake of expediency was nothing new to the Emperor.

 

We have never seen him use them, we have never seen any implication that he has used them and we have seen him codemm them. I see no reason to believe that he has used them.

 

Just got done reading Ben Counter's Sacrifice in Victories of the Space Marines. Very awesome.

 

 

In fact Alaric raises the point of pragmatism and sacrifice versus the good of the Imperium as a whole, but at the end of the day says, "I can allow nothing to trouble me. If we turn our thoughts to these things, we lose our focus. Our sense of duty is eroded. If our task is not worth sacrifice, then no task is."

 

 

I haven't read the interview, but if Matt Ward did intend to cast shades of gray about the GK's, then shame on him, but at the same time, after reading Sacrifices I think my original interpretation of the fluff is validated.

 

Counter's short story, regardless of quality, is irrelevant to the current debate. We are talking about the new Codex fluff.