Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Inache]

We have never seen him use them, we have never seen any implication that he has used them and we have seen him codemm them. I see no reason to believe that he has used them.

 

When? You keep spouting off all these certainties with no proof. Everything we've seen in fluff so far has pointed at the Emperor having dealings with the Chaos Gods for good or bad. e.g. The First Heretic We've also seen that the Emperor is secular and pragmatic. There's no religious dogma that prohibits him from binding an enemy to his will and then using it as a weapon.

 

Counter's short story, regardless of quality, is irrelevant to the current debate. We are talking about the new Codex fluff.

 

Seriously? You've quoted Dark Heresy at me, and I can't mention specific GK fluff? Dude, get off your high horse. It's relevant.

 

The Grey Knights are pragmatic.

 

Spoilers for Sacrifice

 

Each and every bolt round is consecrated in the blood of an innocent sacrifice. Hundreds if not thousands of psykers are sacrificed to consecrate the armor of a single Grey Knight.

 

 

The Grey Knights are the last line of defense of man, and they take terrible and hard steps to hold that line.

[Gree]

We have never seen him use them, we have never seen any implication that he has used them and we have seen him codemm them. I see no reason to believe that he has used them.

 

When? You keep spouting off all these certainties with no proof.

 

I could say the same thing about your claims.

 

Everything we've seen in fluff so far has pointed at the Emperor having dealings with the Chaos Gods for good or bad. e.g. The First Heretic We've also seen that the Emperor is secular and pragmatic.

 

No, that's one mention in the fluff. The rest is ambiguous.

 

There's no religious dogma that prohibits him from binding an enemy to his will and then using it as a weapon.

 

There is none, except for common sense. Chaos corrupts and tries to trick you. It can't be trusted.

 

Seriously? You've quoted Dark Heresy at me, and I can't mention specific GK fluff? Dude, get off your high horse. It's relevant.

 

I quoted Dark Heresy because it was relevant to the discussion. I quoted it to define sorcery. Counter's short story is not relevant because I see nothing about it that relates to them being sorcerers. Counter's Alaric isn't really the most ideal Grey Knight anyway. But even he doesn't call upon unclean sorcery in the Pre-Ward fluff nor does he use daemon weaponry to my knowledge. (Not even in Hammer of Daemons did he use weaponry with daemons bound int it, just normal weapons. But it's been a while since I've read the book)

 

Pragmatism is not however, using forbidden sorceries or unclean rituals. Ward explicitly states them to be sorcerers and his interview talks about wanting to retore some of the more ''magic'' elements to 40k. That's not being pragmatic. Sorcery implies belief in superstition, a far cry from the pragmatists you describe.

 

The Grey Knights are pragmatic.

 

No, they are pure and unyielding in the face of the daemon. They don't willingly stay in contact witht he daemon longer than they have to and they certainly should not employ forbidden sorcery or suchlike.

 

And there is a difference between pragmatism and corruption.

 

Spoilers for Sacrifice

 

Each and every bolt round is consecrated in the blood of an innocent sacrifice. Hundreds if not thousands of psykers are sacrificed to consecrate the armor of a single Grey Knight.

 

Just when I thought the GK fluff could't get any worse Counter goes the extra mile.

 

The Grey Knights are the last line of defense of man, and they take terrible and hard steps to hold that line.

 

None of which, should be associating with the daemonic.

[Iron Man I]

One of the major problems I have is with the whole Sisters of Batlle bit. I understand using thier blood, but for the Grey Knights to be like, "hey lets slaughter these Sisters for thier blood" just seems......poor. I'd be more behind something along the lines of the Grey Knights explaining to the sisters what was required and asking them to sacrifice themselves for the greater glory of the Imperium. Then honoring them on Titan, but never letting anyone know what really happened. To the other Sister of Battle orders it looks like they slaughtered the SoB, but this isnt the truth.

[Iron Lord]

On Grey knights and the daemonic- in the previous codex, they had Anointed Weapons which were "quenched in the blood of a daemon".

 

Now, does that mean they had someone on a strike cruiser heading toward an incursion, forging the weapon, he hands it to the guys teleporting down, and they "quench it in battle"?

 

Or- do they forge it back home on Titan, and summon up a daemon specifically so they can "quench the weapon in the daemon's blood"- banishing the stabbed daemon back to the warp?

 

Either way- the concept of using daemon blood to make a weapon stronger vs daemons, sounds pretty sorcerous.

[Validar]

I think the qoute you're refering to simply states that the weapon have been used several times succesfully against deamons, which seems fair along the lines of the real fluff of the GK :D

 

edit: Forgot a word ;)

[Iron Lord]

To "quench" a weapon implies to douse it while it's still red-hot from forging, though.

 

Come to think of it- summoning daemons specifically so trainees can learn the principles of daemon fighting before they ever have to meet a daemon on the field of battle- would be an interesting approach- very like the way the Deathwatch do this with aliens- capture them for trainees to fight.

[Oiad]

That goes by the assumption that even 11-16 year olds wouldn't pick up on how dumb this all is. ;)

 

When they're not paying for it I doubt they care whether they're getting their money's worth as much. ;)

 

But it's not what I was quite proposing. More that Ward just brings the reader plenty of explosive spectacle whereas FW adds more detail regarding background and slowly builds into the action by comparison. While no doubt there'll be kids who like the later (trying to act older than your years hey son? :)) I'm more than happy to presume that most youngsters want the former more often, if at all. At 12 I only cared to know the basics of the lore and what characters were the most badass. Mostly the reading always took a backseat to the action. The more older I got the more it balanced out. Pretty much all the 40k gamers I known in person were the same way.

[Justcar]

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

It used to be they wouldn't fight along side Radical Inquisitors, who can be easily identified by their collection of demonic stuff. Like demon weapons and demonhosts. They now fight along side them. Sure, Crowe just carries it, but the reasoning behind it is poor.

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

So then why do Grey Knights banish demons instead of bind them all the time? And do you even have a source that backs that claim up?

 

You say it takes away their power, then why is it that enemies near Crowe get benfits? Why would the Grey Knights take objects that activly corrupt those around them when they are trying to destroy that corruption? Isn't that taking one step forward and one step back?

 

Also, what guarantee do you have that a bound demon can never escape? You don't! They can become 'unbound' by those in the know, and even then the corrupt those around them and often lead to some kind of possession and demonic incursion. This is what the Grey Knights and Inquisition are trying to prevent.

 

Furthermore, the idea that Crowe should be carrying around the weapon isn't heresy, it's dumb. Grey Knights are incorruptible. Fact. Says so in everything ever written about them. None have ever fallen to chaos ever. So there is no risk for any Grey Knights to be corrupted by it, but there is a risk to others. As such it should be kept away from them, somewhere that no non-GKs ever go right? How about Titan? Perfect. It's safe. But no! The most pure of the purest guys ever needs to hold it, risk loosing the thing in battle, and corrupting any non-GK he comes across. He's a terrible place to put the thing on the battlefield, as he's a W1 guy who can't even hide in a unit, and is thus extremely vulnerable dying. Yet the GK, in all their wisdom, decide to put it with him on the front lines? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

Actually, the reasoning behind Crowe carrying it is pretty good.

 

They don't behind them all of the time because the daemons shed their mortal form before they can bind them most of the time! Sources: Eisenhorn, GK Codex (specifically the part about the Tesseract Labyrinths) , Dark Heresy, the list goes on...

 

Crowe's enemies get a bonus because it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO evil!

 

 

Crowe is 2 W, and the rules for the model of Crowe are not really related to the fluff. The rules for him are just terrible, but that doesn't mean the "real" Crowe isn't.

[Gree]

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

It used to be they wouldn't fight along side Radical Inquisitors, who can be easily identified by their collection of demonic stuff. Like demon weapons and demonhosts. They now fight along side them. Sure, Crowe just carries it, but the reasoning behind it is poor.

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

So then why do Grey Knights banish demons instead of bind them all the time? And do you even have a source that backs that claim up?

 

You say it takes away their power, then why is it that enemies near Crowe get benfits? Why would the Grey Knights take objects that activly corrupt those around them when they are trying to destroy that corruption? Isn't that taking one step forward and one step back?

 

Also, what guarantee do you have that a bound demon can never escape? You don't! They can become 'unbound' by those in the know, and even then the corrupt those around them and often lead to some kind of possession and demonic incursion. This is what the Grey Knights and Inquisition are trying to prevent.

 

Furthermore, the idea that Crowe should be carrying around the weapon isn't heresy, it's dumb. Grey Knights are incorruptible. Fact. Says so in everything ever written about them. None have ever fallen to chaos ever. So there is no risk for any Grey Knights to be corrupted by it, but there is a risk to others. As such it should be kept away from them, somewhere that no non-GKs ever go right? How about Titan? Perfect. It's safe. But no! The most pure of the purest guys ever needs to hold it, risk loosing the thing in battle, and corrupting any non-GK he comes across. He's a terrible place to put the thing on the battlefield, as he's a W1 guy who can't even hide in a unit, and is thus extremely vulnerable dying. Yet the GK, in all their wisdom, decide to put it with him on the front lines? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

Actually, the reasoning behind Crowe carrying it is pretty good.

 

Crowe's enemies get a bonus because it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO evil!

 

 

Crowe is 2 W, and the rules for the model of Crowe are not really related to the fluff. The rules for him are just terrible, but that doesn't mean the "real" Crowe isn't.

 

The very least Crowe could do is carry the sword in his back, safely sealed and secured, and wield something more suitable, such as a force weapons, power sword or chainsword.

[Justcar]

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

It used to be they wouldn't fight along side Radical Inquisitors, who can be easily identified by their collection of demonic stuff. Like demon weapons and demonhosts. They now fight along side them. Sure, Crowe just carries it, but the reasoning behind it is poor.

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

So then why do Grey Knights banish demons instead of bind them all the time? And do you even have a source that backs that claim up?

 

You say it takes away their power, then why is it that enemies near Crowe get benfits? Why would the Grey Knights take objects that activly corrupt those around them when they are trying to destroy that corruption? Isn't that taking one step forward and one step back?

 

Also, what guarantee do you have that a bound demon can never escape? You don't! They can become 'unbound' by those in the know, and even then the corrupt those around them and often lead to some kind of possession and demonic incursion. This is what the Grey Knights and Inquisition are trying to prevent.

 

Furthermore, the idea that Crowe should be carrying around the weapon isn't heresy, it's dumb. Grey Knights are incorruptible. Fact. Says so in everything ever written about them. None have ever fallen to chaos ever. So there is no risk for any Grey Knights to be corrupted by it, but there is a risk to others. As such it should be kept away from them, somewhere that no non-GKs ever go right? How about Titan? Perfect. It's safe. But no! The most pure of the purest guys ever needs to hold it, risk loosing the thing in battle, and corrupting any non-GK he comes across. He's a terrible place to put the thing on the battlefield, as he's a W1 guy who can't even hide in a unit, and is thus extremely vulnerable dying. Yet the GK, in all their wisdom, decide to put it with him on the front lines? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

Actually, the reasoning behind Crowe carrying it is pretty good.

 

Crowe's enemies get a bonus because it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO evil!

 

 

Crowe is 2 W, and the rules for the model of Crowe are not really related to the fluff. The rules for him are just terrible, but that doesn't mean the "real" Crowe isn't.

 

The very least Crowe could do is carry the sword in his back, safely sealed and secured, and wield something more suitable, such as a force weapons, power sword or chainsword.

 

i agree with you on that! The reason he can't wield a force weapon (IMHO) is because he is using all of his psychic energy suppressing the daemon's influence. he can only shoot flames every now and then :P

 

As for a power sword, who knows! Maybe if the sword is in his blind spot it could be taken from behind?

[Gree]

The Grey Knights do NOT use daemon weapons! Crowe just carries it, he does not "use" it. No other Grey Knight is mentioned as carrying a daemon weapon!

It used to be they wouldn't fight along side Radical Inquisitors, who can be easily identified by their collection of demonic stuff. Like demon weapons and demonhosts. They now fight along side them. Sure, Crowe just carries it, but the reasoning behind it is poor.

 

Also, Grey Knights would prefer to bind daemons than banish them. Heresy? Not when you take into account that binding daemons takes away most of their power for eternity and banishment is only temporary!

So then why do Grey Knights banish demons instead of bind them all the time? And do you even have a source that backs that claim up?

 

You say it takes away their power, then why is it that enemies near Crowe get benfits? Why would the Grey Knights take objects that activly corrupt those around them when they are trying to destroy that corruption? Isn't that taking one step forward and one step back?

 

Also, what guarantee do you have that a bound demon can never escape? You don't! They can become 'unbound' by those in the know, and even then the corrupt those around them and often lead to some kind of possession and demonic incursion. This is what the Grey Knights and Inquisition are trying to prevent.

 

Furthermore, the idea that Crowe should be carrying around the weapon isn't heresy, it's dumb. Grey Knights are incorruptible. Fact. Says so in everything ever written about them. None have ever fallen to chaos ever. So there is no risk for any Grey Knights to be corrupted by it, but there is a risk to others. As such it should be kept away from them, somewhere that no non-GKs ever go right? How about Titan? Perfect. It's safe. But no! The most pure of the purest guys ever needs to hold it, risk loosing the thing in battle, and corrupting any non-GK he comes across. He's a terrible place to put the thing on the battlefield, as he's a W1 guy who can't even hide in a unit, and is thus extremely vulnerable dying. Yet the GK, in all their wisdom, decide to put it with him on the front lines? Absolutely ridiculous.

 

Actually, the reasoning behind Crowe carrying it is pretty good.

 

Crowe's enemies get a bonus because it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO evil!

 

 

Crowe is 2 W, and the rules for the model of Crowe are not really related to the fluff. The rules for him are just terrible, but that doesn't mean the "real" Crowe isn't.

 

The very least Crowe could do is carry the sword in his back, safely sealed and secured, and wield something more suitable, such as a force weapons, power sword or chainsword.

 

i agree with you on that! The reason he can't wield a force weapon (IMHO) is because he is using all of his psychic energy suppressing the daemon's influence. he can only shoot flames every now and then :lol:

 

As for a power sword, who knows! Maybe if the sword is in his blind spot it could be taken from behind?

 

Then wear it, securedly sealed and attatched at his waist. If Crowe is as good as a warrior as he is meant to be then he should be able to see and guard that.

[Iron Lord]

I think the qoute you're refering to simply states that the weapon have been used several times succesfully against deamons, which seems fair along the lines of the real fluff of the GK :)

 

You're right- I think I must have gotten the phrase "quenched in the blood of a daemon" from another source- possibly Graham McNeill's The Killing Ground?

 

On Crowe, the sword is referred to as "the cursed blade of Antwyrr" I think- and in some settings, "cursed" weapons have this interesting trait- no matter how strong-willed the holder, they will find themselves with the weapon in hand when they prepare to make a weapon attack. Even if they tie it to its scabbard.

 

Maybe it's something like that?- with it being impossible for him to not be using the weapon when it comes to melee?

[Grey Mage]

Id thought about taking the terminators I have, and making them Paladins for a full-blown GK taskforce.

 

But sorcerery? Writing his name on MORTARIONs heart? Sacrificing a bastion of the Sisters to Khorne?

 

No, Im afraid I cant support this abomination. I wont buy the book, I wont buy the models, and if I see Matt Ward Ill spit on his shoes.

 

The complete and utter crap of it all is disgusting.

[KnowThyEnemy]

if Uriel Ventris can best the Nightbringer (long live 'crons!), then Draigo can banish a "measly" primarch, who is a fat daemon now :)

[sonofblood]

Id thought about taking the terminators I have, and making them Paladins for a full-blown GK taskforce.

 

But sorcerery? Writing his name on MORTARIONs heart? Sacrificing a bastion of the Sisters to Khorne?

 

No, Im afraid I cant support this abomination. I wont buy the book, I wont buy the models, and if I see Matt Ward Ill spit on his shoes.

 

The complete and utter crap of it all is disgusting.

 

Sacrificing to Khorne is a rather strong statement, that isn't quite true. They didn't sacrifice them to Khorne, they killed them and used their blood in a ritual upon themselves so that the Khornate Daemon's Bloodtide would affect them. It's still goofy for what it is, but "Sacrificing to Khorne" is not true. Enless I'm not catching something in that little blurb on the timeline, but I'm pretty sure no mention of Sacrificing to Khorne is mentioned, only that the Daemon causing all the crap to hit the fan was a Bloodthirster.

 

While Mat Ward has made some questional fluff in this Codex, and turned the Grey Knights into Incorruptiable crosses between a Radical and a Puritan, he certainly didn't make them Chaos Marines.

[sonofblood]

if Uriel Ventris can best the Nightbringer (long live 'crons!), then Draigo can banish a "measly" primarch, who is a fat daemon now :)

 

He didn't best the Nightbringer, he threatened to bring its tomb down ontop of it with a Meltabomb to trap it there forever if it didn't let him and his boys get outside.

 

While sure he "Beat" it, he didn't best it in a traditional sense of a good ol' fashion melee.

[Iron Lord]

In Siege of Vraks III, An'ggrath, mightiest of Bloodthirsters, is beaten in a one-on-one fight (wasn't it by an Inquisitor rather than a Grey Knight?)

[Irbis]

Man I feel like such an Alien whenever I visit codex fluff threads lately. Ive been playing since 2nd ed and none of the 5th ed codexes have offended my sensibilities in the slightest (dont get me wrong nothing is prefect, but thats the world we live in).

 

Finally, a voice of reason ;)

 

Seriously, if only half people here had your attitude... :)

 

In Siege of Vraks III, An'ggrath, mightiest of Bloodthirsters, is beaten in a one-on-one fight (wasn't it by an Inquisitor rather than a Grey Knight?)

 

Yup. And Primarch have been beaten by lesser beings before. But, whatever Ward writes, is evil. No exceptions.

 

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :P

 

Enless I'm not catching something in that little blurb on the timeline, but I'm pretty sure no mention of Sacrificing to Khorne is mentioned, only that the Daemon causing all the crap to hit the fan was a Bloodthirster.

 

You know what you are missing? This:

 

Having them bathe in the blood of innocent Sisters of Battle to prepare for a battle is just... crass and juvenile.

Sacrificing a bastion of the Sisters to Khorne?

 

Bashing has long since ceased to be about what Ward wrote, now it is all about bashing colossal strawmen that long since have ceased resembling Ward's fluff, but who cares, you can still throw a bit more on him and hope it will stick.

 

You know what? I like what he did. I like all these details from 2nd edition brought back, all new, sensible units, good rules, and finally, grimdumb for the sake of grimdark thrown out, and a proper fluff written instead of that nothingness (seriously, compile it, and it isn't even one page) of the old Codex. I like GK being soldiers/monks now, instead of cardboard cutouts with no personality.

 

And the more I read the above, the more I think what Ward did was to cross some invented fanon "facts" that have no basis whatsoever in the old fluff, like that old number, yet, he is still getting the flak for it... Because there is no way to disprove to fanon fans their inventions never existed to begin with. You can't prove something never existed. And the harder you show them that yes, all of this was in the old fluff already, the more fanon they'll invent to support their cause, no matter how internally contradictory.

 

Frankly, you know what is juvenile, IMHO? All that hating, name-calling, venom-spitting against someone who can't defend himself - things that would have lead to ban had they been directed against another B&S member. You don't like changes? Fine, I'm sure lots of people will buy your minis. Hell, I'd gladly buy them. The solution is so simple. What you're doing instead isn't helping your cause, it's demolishing it.

[AoC]

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :)

 

100 vs 13. And most of them died. In real space.

 

Compared to 1 vs 2381294214*. He survived. In the warp. Are you blind to not see it ?

[sonofblood]

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones B)

 

100 vs 13. And most of them died. In real space.

 

Compared to 1 vs 2381294214*. He survived. In the warp. Are you blind to not see it ?

 

The codex entry doesn't say it was "1 vs 27923942380" when fighting Mortarion for all we know it could have been an incursion and it was Draigo was there with other Grey Knights, enless it specifically says he took a Daemon World on his own by himself, it is unfair to claim that it was so. For all we know he was running around with the whole chapter at his back or nothing more then a couple squads of Paladins. What I have more of a problem with is his trouncing through the Warp effortlessly and giving everyone the finger. You don't walk into your enemies' home field and insult them and expect nothing to happen, but that is exactly what happens to Dragio. Hell even the Chaos Gods can't do crap against him. Forget Guilliman, the Emperor's new Spiritual Liege is Kalgor Draigo.

[Reldn]

While Mat Ward has made some questional fluff in this Codex, and turned the Grey Knights into Incorruptiable crosses between a Radical and a Puritan, he certainly didn't make them Chaos Marines.

 

While he may not have turned them into full blown Chaos Marines, he's certainly pushed them awfully close with all this stuff about Sorcery, Daemon-weapon wielding (The Relictors called, they'd like a word with the Grey Knights.), and sacrificing your allies and rubbing their blood on your armour.

 

Ward needs some serious reining in when it comes to fluff.

[Iron Lord]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

[Gree]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

 

Ward states in the codex that the only way to defeat the daemon is to immerse oneself in the powers that the daemon wields, which is bunk since we've seen daemons banished and defeated without resorting to sorcery or daemonic powers.

 

After all, there is no chance for GK to even beat a Primarch. Except, wait, they did beat one! In old Codex, no less! And a Primarch of Khorne, not rolling turd of Nurgle! But, Ward haven't written that, so that's okay, we can conveniently forgot it and continue throwing stones :D

 

100 GK fought Angron and his bodyguard and almost all of them died doing it. Aurelian himself died fighting Angron and only managed to banish Angron due ot the sacrifice of his battle brothers weakening Angron. Draigo is recorded as single-handedly defeating Mortarion and his entire bodyguard alone and unaided and holding the Primarch down to carve his name in his heart.

 

There is a difference.

[sonofblood]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

 

Ward states in the codex that the only way to defeat the daemon is to immerse oneself in the powers that the daemon wields, which is bunk since we've seen daemons banished and defeated without resorting to sorcery or daemonic powers.

 

Well what is ment by "defeat"? Simply banishing it back to the warp? If that's the case I agee completely, any old guardsman could stab a bloodletter and banish it just as well as a regular marine or a Grey Knight.. Now if it ment as something like completely whiping the daemon from exsistence and tearing it's essence apart so it can't return to the warp or return to the physical universe, that would be something different. But the second meaning is something I don't think should be made to happen or put into the fluff or only be capable of happening by the most potent of people(I.e. Magnus/The Emperor/Malcador, who are respectively now a Daemon himself, clinging to life support, and dead.)

[Gree]

There are strong suggestions that it's only thanks to their geneseed (derived in some way from the Emperor's flesh) that they can do what they do- and that any "normal" psyker who used their kind of powers, would be corrupted in an instant.

 

That said, Mat's definition of "sorcery" seems to be a little bit wider than simply "using daemonic power"- since its used to banish the daemon rather than to ally with it.

 

Ward states in the codex that the only way to defeat the daemon is to immerse oneself in the powers that the daemon wields, which is bunk since we've seen daemons banished and defeated without resorting to sorcery or daemonic powers.

 

Well what is ment by "defeat"? Simply banishing it back to the warp? If that's the case I agee completely, any old guardsman could stab a bloodletter and banish it just as well as a regular marine or a Grey Knight.. Now if it ment as something like completely whiping the daemon from exsistence and tearing it's essence apart so it can't return to the warp or return to the physical universe, that would be something different. But the second meaning is something I don't think should be made to happen or put into the fluff or only be capable of happening by the most potent of people(I.e. Magnus/The Emperor/Malcador, who are respectively now a Daemon himself, clinging to life support, and dead.)

 

I don't quite know what he means by defeat. Ward's prose is pretty vague. I would need to re-read the passage.