Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[DinoDoc]

Discussion about wargear as it pertains to gameplay, character statlines and such belong in the Codex Rumour thread, not the fluff discussion.

Is it OK if we wonder why it is required that someone who comes up with the rules writes the fluff? My problem with Ward is that while he writes decent rules, the fluff he writes for them leaves something to be desired in some cases.

[Vindicatus]

I'm not a mod, so I'm not going to wave a ban-hammer at you or anything, it was just requested that we try to keep things separate for the sake of sanity. :)

 

Personally, I'd say that's fine by me. I honestly think that it should be a collaborative effort between a dedicated fluff-writer and a ruleset designer, smacking heads together and meeting in the middle with something decent.

[Justcar]

I would have like Mord's fluff better if the Ghost Knights were somehow more of a psychic phenomenon. Like, If Mordrack is really injured he can use a powerful, but dangerous, psychic power that summons psychic constructs of GKTA to destroy those around him and protect him. I like that idea better!

[Marmande]

I would have like Mord's fluff better if the Ghost Knights were somehow more of a psychic phenomenon. Like, If Mordrack is really injured he can use a powerful, but dangerous, psychic power that summons psychic constructs of GKTA to destroy those around him and protect him. I like that idea better!

 

From his fluff that sounds like what happened: he was injured and cut off from his allies and surrounded by enemies, so they manifested as psychic constructs. Now it's gotten to the point where he can control it and use it at will, and that's where he is right now. He still has a chance to summon more every time he's injured anyway.

[Justcar]

I would have like Mord's fluff better if the Ghost Knights were somehow more of a psychic phenomenon. Like, If Mordrack is really injured he can use a powerful, but dangerous, psychic power that summons psychic constructs of GKTA to destroy those around him and protect him. I like that idea better!

 

From his fluff that sounds like what happened: he was injured and cut off from his allies and surrounded by enemies, so they manifested as psychic constructs. Now it's gotten to the point where he can control it and use it at will, and that's where he is right now. He still has a chance to summon more every time he's injured anyway.

 

It sounds to me that they are presented as literal Ghosts. I wanted psychic constructs that he summons into being.

[Marmande]

...that's what I just said?

[Eddie Orlock]

I recall that it's accepted that Grey Knights form a gestalt consciousness on the battlefield. Perhaps then, this units bond was so strong that at the times of their deaths his colleagues never fully disengaged to become one with the stuff of the warp and remained psychically teathered to the survivor. Thus, as the leader remains tapped into this 'ghost' gestalt and is a conduit for their manifestation the phenomina is a hybrid of both interpretations, this spirits of his brothers are made tangible through the combined will of the quick and the dead.

 

Souls in the warp are a bit like the force ghosts of the Jedi, they remain coherent for a while post mortem before disapaiting, the stronger, more focused, or driven a soul is, the longer it lasts, and Grey Knights are noted as being strong souls with clear goals their committed to seeing realised.

[Justcar]

I recall that it's accepted that Grey Knights form a gestalt consciousness on the battlefield. Perhaps then, this units bond was so strong that at the times of their deaths his colleagues never fully disengaged to become one with the stuff of the warp and remained psychically teathered to the survivor. Thus, as the leader remains tapped into this 'ghost' gestalt and is a conduit for their manifestation the phenomina is a hybrid of both interpretations, this spirits of his brothers are made tangible through the combined will of the quick and the dead.

 

Souls in the warp are a bit like the force ghosts of the Jedi, they remain coherent for a while post mortem before disapaiting, the stronger, more focused, or driven a soul is, the longer it lasts, and Grey Knights are noted as being strong souls with clear goals their committed to seeing realised.

 

I could buy that! Fits the fluff and can be explained through canon! Excellent :D

[Justcar]

You know, something has always bothered me about GK fluff...

 

If the battles they fight would drive normal marines insane, then how do all of these other marines fight daemons?

 

seriously:

 

Dead Sky Black Sun,

The Chapter's Due,

Others that I can't think about right now!

 

Does anyone else notice this inconsistency?

[Vindicatus]

I've noticed them, but the tactics involved with it are usually different than how the Grey Knights would handle a situation. In almost EVERY book I've read in which a serious daemonic threat becomes apparent, the forward flow of the battle stops, and it becomes a series of bound-by-fire-fall-back moves away from the area until they can drop a hab-spire on it.

 

Grey Knight's just go "LOLCHARGE."

[AlexHolker]

You know, something has always bothered me about GK fluff...

 

If the battles they fight would drive normal marines insane, then how do all of these other marines fight daemons?

Not all daemonic incursions are made equal. Only the really bad ones are an immediate threat to the sanity of your average Guardsman or Space Marine, which means there's plenty of time to execute the Guardsman or mind wipe the Space Marine after the fighting is over.

[Gentlemanloser]

Logan and his "lolreforgeddaemonweapontakenfromadaemonprince"? ;)

[HERO]

Logan and his "lolreforgeddaemonweapontakenfromadaemonprince"? :P

 

Or Calgar's Fists that he pulled off a Chaos Champion..

[Sothalor]

This is just something that occurred to me. I haven't seen any copies of the PDF that's floating around, so I could be way off base here. Anyways, people talk about Castellan Crowe like he's not an Independent Character. Now again, beta rules, not final, all of that. Maybe it was just left out.

 

Or, maybe, it was deliberate. What if Crowe is shunned/ostracized in some way by the majority of the Grey Knights for carrying and using a daemon weapon? Perhaps it's seen as a necessary evil that he wields it - it's done but reluctantly so and it isolates him from the rest of the chapter in some way? Could he be seen as "that guy" who treads on dangerous ground and hence nobody wants him around?

 

Can anyone confirm/deny? Is Crowe seen as some paragon of Grey Knight virtue or a bit of a black sheep? I think it'd be an interesting way to explain it if he really isn't an IC. The lonely Grey Knight castellan...

[Justcar]

This is just something that occurred to me. I haven't seen any copies of the PDF that's floating around, so I could be way off base here. Anyways, people talk about Castellan Crowe like he's not an Independent Character. Now again, beta rules, not final, all of that. Maybe it was just left out.

 

Or, maybe, it was deliberate. What if Crowe is shunned/ostracized in some way by the majority of the Grey Knights for carrying and using a daemon weapon? Perhaps it's seen as a necessary evil that he wields it - it's done but reluctantly so and it isolates him from the rest of the chapter in some way? Could he be seen as "that guy" who treads on dangerous ground and hence nobody wants him around?

 

Can anyone confirm/deny? Is Crowe seen as some paragon of Grey Knight virtue or a bit of a black sheep? I think it'd be an interesting way to explain it if he really isn't an IC. The lonely Grey Knight castellan...

 

He IS the commander AND brotherhood champion of the purifier order... so I would say it is more of a typo than him being ostracized. Besides, the GKs are more likely to respect him for taking the burden on his shoulders, not banish him.

[Machine God]

But if there are furiosos flying around and shooting lightning out of their ^_^ es, then why can't our GKs do the same. All of them are psykers for crying out loud!

 

Because Blood Angels are nearly suicidal. :confused:

 

In GK fluff it states in the old codex that GK prefer to die and be lain to rest in tombs below Titan and only a few chose to be interred in a Dreadnought.

 

The argument for GK Dreadnoughts to get psychic abilities is "Because the BA have Librarian Furiouso's." Remember that BA are First Founding and GK are Second Founding.

 

Here goes.

The BA Techmarines worked out the tech that enabled their Libbys to use pschic power when interred in a Dreadnought but did not pass on their knowledge.

 

BA are known as refusing to hand over to the AdMech the STC for the Baal Predator and the Furioso Dreadnought.

 

This also explains why GK do not like to be interred in Dreadnoughts.

[Gentlemanloser]

All GK Dreads are Psychic and have the power 'Fortitidue'.

 

That being so, why don't they have access to other powers? Hammerhand (not redundant if you run a rifleman config), Cleasing Flame, or to be honest any power, if it was a Libby interred?

[- 7eAL -]

Even should this be true, and the Codex is written by Matt Ward, I think we should conduct ourselves like responsible adults, buy the new rules, and get on with our lives as we attempt to show everyone else the class the OI and the Inquisition conducts itself with :) We've been awesome for a long time, lets just keep it that way and apply our skill to a new book, eh?

Are you, by extension, suggesting that Matt Ward is a responsible adult? And that we, as a community of players deserve to be in some ways disrespected as to the fulfillment of some of our interests in a new book? If we take membership in the Grey Knight and Inquisition community to be an ad-hoc contract, then Matt Ward's administration is not the sort of service for which so many of us initially signed our names and funds. Given an alternative, Games Workshop would effectively lose us all as customers - only because there is no alternative product, and perhaps because the product is so bad, will we continue to pay good money for a product with which we are not altogether satisfied, and that does not accurately represent our long-awaited hopes.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense. Grey Knights took out Angron during the first war of Armageddon. Ragnar of the Space Wolves pushed back a half summoned Magnus. So it's not possible that a Grey Knight Supreme Grand Master seeking revenge for his predecessors death deciding to rub salt in the wound by carving his name into a Daemon Prince Primarch's heart before sending him back to the Warp? Seems feasible to me. And anybody with the silver engraved hexagramic warded codpiece to do that will probably tromp through Chaos' back yard for awhile.

It took a hundred Grey Knight Terminators (read: Paladins, as Terminators were the highest rank circulated in fluff at the time of writing), of whom the majority died. It takes three hundred Grey Knights; the equivalent of between three and nine Companies of Marines, to invade a Daemon World to banish Ghargatuloth. It takes three Grand Masters to put down the Greater Daemon of Tzeentch Ghargatuloth, of whom all three die. Ghargatuloth has not the advantages of being a Primarch to begin with. How then, does a single Grand Master get Angron to hold still long enough to get access to his heart, and carve his name into the flesh?

Grey Knights, irrespective of power, are not necessarily likely to be able to fight with such significant success in the Warp. The power of the Chaos Gods is effectively absolute in their own dimensions; being gods, they can create and destroy life on a whim. If we take the Chaos Gods to be all-powerful in their own dimensions, then we cannot simultaneously take one Grey Knight to be able to threaten entire cities without suffering retribution. These implications lie in direct conflict, and cannot both be true.

Grey Knights, irrespective of power, have never been said to equal or best Primarchs in individual combat; suggesting such a thing posits a logical impasse. If we take Primarchs to be without equal except amongst themselves and against the Emperor, then we cannot simultaneously take one Grey Knight to be the equal or better of a Primarch. These premises are mutually exclusive; again cannot both be true.

 

It is not uncommon to see similarly conflicting fluff in the work of the Black Library and other extensions of the Games Workshop family, but the inclusion such events in a codex published by Game Workshop-central represents a direct attack upon the most established fluff, from within the organizing body that determines established fluff. It basically opens the door to suggest that Games Workshop-central has discarded its own authority over established fluff, has discarded the consistencies that ensure the coherence of fluff, and thus discarded the established fluff that organizes the 40K universe in our collected imaginations. That further suggests that our interest in 40K as a serial narrative, as an internally consistent world, and as an imagined experience, is slowly being disregarded by Games Workshop-central, in favour of selling 40K as a series of continuously changing rules, attractive models, and complex and competitive play.

[Valerian]

Well stated Brother 7eAL.

[Justcar]

But if there are furiosos flying around and shooting lightning out of their :P es, then why can't our GKs do the same. All of them are psykers for crying out loud!

 

Because Blood Angels are nearly suicidal. :blush:

 

In GK fluff it states in the old codex that GK prefer to die and be lain to rest in tombs below Titan and only a few chose to be interred in a Dreadnought.

 

The argument for GK Dreadnoughts to get psychic abilities is "Because the BA have Librarian Furiouso's." Remember that BA are First Founding and GK are Second Founding.

 

Here goes.

The BA Techmarines worked out the tech that enabled their Libbys to use pschic power when interred in a Dreadnought but did not pass on their knowledge.

 

BA are known as refusing to hand over to the AdMech the STC for the Baal Predator and the Furioso Dreadnought.

 

This also explains why GK do not like to be interred in Dreadnoughts.

 

Grey Knights are ALL psykers, one would think that they would develop tech to accomplish it if the blood angels too. In addition, GKs are known for non standard tech. Everything that they use has been heavily modified. It is not unreasonable to expect that a dread housing a clearly psychic brother would be able to use their psychic abilities.

[Justcar]

Gargatuloth DID exist before the imperium and had countless eons to consolidate and accumulate power. It stands to reason that Gargatuloth could have had a similar level of power to that of An'grath the unbound.

 

On the subject of primarchs, could they not be weakened in some way? If you know their mortal name, i.e. Mortarion, would that not weaken them? It doesn't explain the OTT fluff, but that might provide some small consolation/justification

[Inache]

I should have made it clear that I wasn't stating, and the leaked codex doesn't state, that Draigo bests him by himself. Just that before banishment Draigo ups the ante by eternally insulting Mortarion. I figured you've got to have somebody holding him down to give Draigo the chance to perform a little battlefield surgery.

 

Agreed that Primarch > Astartes, even in the case of our beloved chapter.

 

Edit: And obviously we're taking a lot more than was intended from one sentence. Considering that the previous Supreme GM was just killed by Mortarion, it stands to reason that either the same GK taskforce was there with Draigo or Draigo was with reinforcements that shortly arrived at the incursion. Either way, there is going to be numerous other GK's to help with the fight, seeing how I doubt even the Supreme GM of the GK's isn't arrogant enough to hunt a Primarch by himself.

[Irbis]

Are you, by extension, suggesting that Matt Ward is a responsible adult? And that we, as a community of players deserve to be in some ways disrespected as to the fulfillment of some of our interests in a new book?

 

Well... Maybe I'm weird, but calling ad personam attacks against the writer when you're about to get far better rules and fluff making GK stronger and more unique force is somewhat... strange, to say the least :rolleyes:

 

It took a hundred Grey Knight Terminators (read: Paladins, as Terminators were the highest rank circulated in fluff at the time of writing), of whom the majority died.

 

Actually... 100 GK is now simply a company, and since GK novices now get Terminator Armour, we can't say with any certainity it was anywhere near elite force. 100 Paladins in tabletop would easily slaughter even mightiest of the Forge Word Daemon Princes, beings with might comparable to a Primarch.

 

It takes three hundred Grey Knights; the equivalent of between three and nine Companies of Marines, to invade a Daemon World to banish Ghargatuloth. It takes three Grand Masters to put down the Greater Daemon of Tzeentch Ghargatuloth, of whom all three die. Ghargatuloth has not the advantages of being a Primarch to begin with. How then, does a single Grand Master get Angron to hold still long enough to get access to his heart, and carve his name into the flesh?

 

First, he is not a single Grand Master. He is future Supreme GM. Ergo, he was second only to reigning one. Second, Mortarion (as you have wrong daemon Primarch here - you know, I'd check the fluff before I would hate it) just finished killing the SGM he succeeded, so Draigo obviously wasn't alone, and third, about holding still - being a daemon Primarch of Nurgle does not make you quick, in fact, rotten skin also makes reaching his heart easier. Mortarion is Plague marine to Angron's Berserker, he won't be anywhere near that strong in CC.

 

And fourth, you try to sneak the assumption that Daemon Prince < Primarch, which is not necessarily true. Just ask Fulgrim, Ferrus or Sanguinius. In fact, Mortarion being DP of Nurgle makes him weaker against GK than he once was, due to being slow and much more vulnerable to GK's techniques. It's possible that Primarch Mortarion would have bested Draigo, while his DPrimarch self is no longer capable of doing so.

 

Grey Knights, irrespective of power, are not necessarily likely to be able to fight with such significant success in the Warp. The power of the Chaos Gods is effectively absolute in their own dimensions; being gods, they can create and destroy life on a whim. If we take the Chaos Gods to be all-powerful in their own dimensions, then we cannot simultaneously take one Grey Knight to be able to threaten entire cities without suffering retribution. These implications lie in direct conflict, and cannot both be true.

 

Well, unless certain Chaos God known as the Emperor shields what is equivalent to his own Daemon Prince Saint from the other four, making the field more level and forcing others to actually send daemons after him...

 

Grey Knights, irrespective of power, have never been said to equal or best Primarchs in individual combat; suggesting such a thing posits a logical impasse. If we take Primarchs to be without equal except amongst themselves and against the Emperor, then we cannot simultaneously take one Grey Knight to be the equal or better of a Primarch. These premises are mutually exclusive; again cannot both be true.

 

First, space marines actually managed to best a Primarch several times, even during the Heresy. Draigo isn't even a marine - he is the best of the best of 10.000 years of continuing anti-Daemon Inquisitorial weapons program. I dare risk the statement that against daemonic forces, only Magnus would be anywhere near his level, even Horus fell easily against what was... what? One plague marine with poisoned weapon? Now, imagine that plague marine sane, actually strengthened by warp, not crippled, wielding force weapon, with 10.000 years of experience behind him - felling a Primarch, not killing him, is justifiable, IMHO.

 

After all, you try to say the fluff continuity is being broken - but what continuity that would be? GK being weaker than the marines now are, with their Supreme Grand Masters not even equals of not-psyker Chapter Masters? GK were made in days where all Imperial factions were weak and the Imperium was portrayed five minutes before the fall, today we have Imperium somewhat holding on and Imperials (from all factions, from SM to IG) actually being competent, GK had to be revised upward to stay what they always are, professional, super-elite force, IMHO.

[Justcar]

On the subject of draigo in the warp:

 

As a psyker, would it not stand to reason that if he was surrounded by the raw energy of the warp, then his psychic powers would be far more powerful?

 

Also, the Chaos gods are not absolutely powerful in their domain. Their are plenty of places in the warp that are not claimed by the gods, their domains exist in the deepest, darkest portions of the warp. In addition, their have been instances where one god's power influences the other's domain. Furthermore, Draigo isn't actually destroying anything, so why would the chaos gods bother destroying him?

[Inache]

Plus what's better than having a roving trial for you to pit your followers against? Beats having to expend the energy to open up a rift to the material world when you could just wait a week and have the Supreme Grand Master of the Grey Knights knocking at your door.

 

Plus the warp is a fickle thing. It doesn't mean that he isn't popping out onto worlds in the Eye of Terror, destroying a city, then warp walking back to the other side of the Eye and harshing some Daemon world's buzz. He's wandering about in the stuff of dreams and nightmares. They've gotta find him first to take him out. Movement is key.