Grey Knight mk.II Fluff discussion

[Validar]

Irbis, while I disagree with points we can debate from here and to hell, I need to approach your last argument.

 

Horus wasn't bested by "one plague marine with a poisoned weapon" - this was the chaos gods pouring all their power and effort into stopping the one thing that could actually threaten them: The Emperor. They weren't carelessly just throwing random plague-dude-3421 towards (arguably) the second most powerful entity in the entire realm. The weapon that wounded Horus is likely to have no equal. And I'd also like to note that those Nurgle followers that appear "crippled" are usually the chosen ones. Nurgle is somewhat against the whole looking-all-fine-and-healthy theme in his warriors :P

 

In my world, no one aside the emperor can best a primarch in single combat, no matter the circumstances, but that's just how I percieve it.

[AlexHolker]

It took a hundred Grey Knight Terminators (read: Paladins, as Terminators were the highest rank circulated in fluff at the time of writing), of whom the majority died.

 

Actually... 100 GK is now simply a company, and since GK novices now get Terminator Armour, we can't say with any certainity it was anywhere near elite force.

Sure we can, because Ward's stupid retcons don't count.

[Marmande]

I'm actually fine with that bit of fluff - it shows that, for the Grey Knights, a standard battle-brother is already worthy of Terminator armor.

 

Except now they're WS4, and led by a guy who puts the exploits of the Primarchs and the Emperor himself to shame. :tu: It's really jarring.

[Justcar]

Irbis, while I disagree with points we can debate from here and to hell, I need to approach your last argument.

 

Horus wasn't bested by "one plague marine with a poisoned weapon" - this was the chaos gods pouring all their power and effort into stopping the one thing that could actually threaten them: The Emperor. They weren't carelessly just throwing random plague-dude-3421 towards (arguably) the second most powerful entity in the entire realm. The weapon that wounded Horus is likely to have no equal. And I'd also like to note that those Nurgle followers that appear "crippled" are usually the chosen ones. Nurgle is somewhat against the whole looking-all-fine-and-healthy theme in his warriors :tu:

 

In my world, no one aside the emperor can best a primarch in single combat, no matter the circumstances, but that's just how I percieve it.

 

Actually...

 

It seems to me that Horus was (like his father) unable to use his full power against him, because plague guy was a former comrade. He spent a good portion of the fight trying to convince him to stop. And yes, the weapon is extremely powerful and a single scratch will kill anything. So, while I disagree as to the power of this plague guy, I do agree that the weapon is what was really powerful. Horus killed that guy pretty easily once he decided that he had to kill him, the guy just got a scratch in before that.

[Irbis]

In my world, no one aside the emperor can best a primarch in single combat, no matter the circumstances, but that's just how I percieve it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a regular daemon (not a Daemon Prince, as he was promoted to such later) managed to first A) enslave Fulgrim, then eat his soul; B ) kill Ferrus Manus; C) mortally wound Guilman?

 

Edit - the way the forum turns B ) into B) if there is no space between them is really irritating :P

 

So, you have a being on a level Grey Knights best every day - even if we say he was as powerful as DP, GK kill those, too, and he managed to slay three primarchs, not one.

 

Then, there's Kurze, who might have not dodged the bullet, but still, he proves even dedicated human could kill a primarch.

 

As for Anathame being so powerful, well, I'd expect Sons of Horus to feel something wrong in that case - even if no Librarians were on hand, Horus had to have a Navigator or Telepath with him? And, if it was so serious, why he wasn't rushed to Terra, to his father, but given over to shamans? It always bugged me <_<

 

I'm actually fine with that bit of fluff - it shows that, for the Grey Knights, a standard battle-brother is already worthy of Terminator armor.

 

Yup. That's what I liked in Space Wolves, too - giving your most precious and least experienced soldiers actual armour and leaving scouting to veterans was one thing that made sense about their ways :P

[Justcar]

In my world, no one aside the emperor can best a primarch in single combat, no matter the circumstances, but that's just how I percieve it.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't a regular daemon (not a Daemon Prince, as he was promoted to such later) managed to first A) enslave Fulgrim, then eat his soul; B ) kill Ferrus Manus; C) mortally wound Guilman?

 

Edit - the way the forum turns B ) into B) if there is no space between them is really irritating :P

 

So, you have a being on a level Grey Knights best every day - even if we say he was as powerful as DP, GK kill those, too, and he managed to slay three primarchs, not one.

 

Then, there's Kurze, who might have not dodged the bullet, but still, he proves even dedicated human could kill a primarch.

 

As for Anathame being so powerful, well, I'd expect Sons of Horus to feel something wrong in that case - even if no Librarians were on hand, Horus had to have a Navigator or Telepath with him? And, if it was so serious, why he wasn't rushed to Terra, to his father, but given over to shamans? It always bugged me <_<

 

I'm actually fine with that bit of fluff - it shows that, for the Grey Knights, a standard battle-brother is already worthy of Terminator armor.

 

Yup. That's what I liked in Space Wolves, too - giving your most precious and least experienced soldiers actual armour and leaving scouting to veterans was one thing that made sense about their ways :P

 

A) Fulgrim was corrupted by a daemon. He let himself die after slowly being taken over. It then used a primarch's body to kill Ferrus Manus and was then transformed before killing Fulgrim.

 

B ) I maintain that it is because they are daemons, that the GKs can handle them. It makes them weaker against GKs

[Iron Man I]

wasnt it 100 GK terminators vs a Primarch and over a dozen of his nastiest demon prince Bloodthirsters? So it wasnt just Angron blasting thru 100 GK terminators, it was him and 12 of his hard core drinking buddies.

[Skyhawk]

As for Anathame being so powerful, well, I'd expect Sons of Horus to feel something wrong in that case - even if no Librarians were on hand, Horus had to have a Navigator or Telepath with him? And, if it was so serious, why he wasn't rushed to Terra, to his father, but given over to shamans? It always bugged me :)

 

The answer is: Erebus.

He was in it all along, he's a terrifying character to tell the truth, and one of the very best in the HH series.

[Marmande]

wasnt it 100 GK terminators vs a Primarch and over a dozen of his nastiest demon prince Bloodthirsters? So it wasnt just Angron blasting thru 100 GK terminators, it was him and 12 of his hard core drinking buddies.

 

In addition to whatever lesser daemons and World Eaters were around, which just added to the fight.

[- 7eAL -]

It took a hundred Grey Knight Terminators (read: Paladins, as Terminators were the highest rank circulated in fluff at the time of writing), of whom the majority died.

Actually... 100 GK is now simply a company, and since GK novices now get Terminator Armour, we can't say with any certainity it was anywhere near elite force.

Sure we can, because Ward's stupid retcons don't count.

Thanks for the support Alex, but we can safely argue this:

One hundred Grey Knight Terminators before Matt Ward means something different from one hundred Grey Knight Terminators after Matt Ward, and by drawing an equal relationship between a pre-Ward Grey Knight Terminator and a post-Ward Grey Knight Terminator, Irbis basically decontextualizes the term.

It is not correct to read old texts according to present terminology. That is why, when Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf, and the company of thirteen Dwarves arrive at the house of Beorn, we do not laugh at the chapter entitled "Queer Lodgings". In context, "queer" means "strange" because Beorn is a shape-shifter, not "homosexual" because there are sixteen men sleeping in one room. That is why when we read "Grey Knight Terminator" in the Armageddon text, we understand "highest if not only elite rank of Grey Knight organization" according to the history of Grey Knights at the time, not "standard novice rank of Grey Knight organization" according to the system of ranks constructed by Matt Ward for this publication.

 

 

wasnt it 100 GK terminators vs a Primarch and over a dozen of his nastiest demon prince Bloodthirsters? So it wasnt just Angron blasting thru 100 GK terminators, it was him and 12 of his hard core drinking buddies.

In addition to whatever lesser daemons and World Eaters were around, which just added to the fight.

And given this healthy entourage that accompanies every Daemon Primarch, how can we believe that it would take any smaller number of Grey Knights to help our "Supreme Grand Master" defeat Mortarion?

 

In a serious fight to the death, I doubt that a Primarch can even stop to carve the letter "Z" for Zorro into another Primarch's armour, unless a third Primarch is holding the victim from behind. Mortarion is a Primarch - even if a Grey Knight Grand Master has a boatload of help on hand, how many Grey Knights must sit on Mortarion's arms and legs to keep him from moving, and how many more must keep every other Daemon Prince at bay, and how many more must swat away the swarming Nurglings that will invariably spring from Mortarion's exposed innards? For that matter, what sort of incompetent fool would spend even thirty seconds carving the letters "D-R-A-I-G-O" into enemy flesh - thirty seconds better spent taking enemy lives? For a man whose work will never be finished, such an incident suggests that Draigo seems to waste time on the most irresponsible displays of egotism, like a playground bully who doesn't take any lunch money, but instead pulls out a magic marker and draws pictures on the faces of his victims.

[Vindicatus]

This.

 

When you're talking about previously established and well founded backstory in regards to the Primarches and just how powerful they really were, and then trying to throw this garbage in there? Yeah-no.

 

'Hey, this sounds cool' doesn't necessarily fly very far against something so firmly entrenched.

[Inache]

It took a hundred Grey Knight Terminators (read: Paladins, as Terminators were the highest rank circulated in fluff at the time of writing), of whom the majority died.

Actually... 100 GK is now simply a company, and since GK novices now get Terminator Armour, we can't say with any certainity it was anywhere near elite force.

Sure we can, because Ward's stupid retcons don't count.

Thanks for the support Alex, but we can safely argue this:

One hundred Grey Knight Terminators before Matt Ward means something different from one hundred Grey Knight Terminators after Matt Ward, and by drawing an equal relationship between a pre-Ward Grey Knight Terminator and a post-Ward Grey Knight Terminator, Irbis basically decontextualizes the term.

It is not correct to read old texts according to present terminology. That is why, when Bilbo Baggins, Gandalf, and the company of thirteen Dwarves arrive at the house of Beorn, we do not laugh at the chapter entitled "Queer Lodgings". In context, "queer" means "strange" because Beorn is a shape-shifter, not "homosexual" because there are sixteen men sleeping in one room. That is why when we read "Grey Knight Terminator" in the Armageddon text, we understand "highest if not only elite rank of Grey Knight organization" according to the history of Grey Knights at the time, not "standard novice rank of Grey Knight organization" according to the system of ranks constructed by Matt Ward for this publication.

 

 

wasnt it 100 GK terminators vs a Primarch and over a dozen of his nastiest demon prince Bloodthirsters? So it wasnt just Angron blasting thru 100 GK terminators, it was him and 12 of his hard core drinking buddies.

In addition to whatever lesser daemons and World Eaters were around, which just added to the fight.

And given this healthy entourage that accompanies every Daemon Primarch, how can we believe that it would take any smaller number of Grey Knights to help our "Supreme Grand Master" defeat Mortarion?

 

In a serious fight to the death, I doubt that a Primarch can even stop to carve the letter "Z" for Zorro into another Primarch's armour, unless a third Primarch is holding the victim from behind. Mortarion is a Primarch - even if a Grey Knight Grand Master has a boatload of help on hand, how many Grey Knights must sit on Mortarion's arms and legs to keep him from moving, and how many more must keep every other Daemon Prince at bay, and how many more must swat away the swarming Nurglings that will invariably spring from Mortarion's exposed innards? For that matter, what sort of incompetent fool would spend even thirty seconds carving the letters "D-R-A-I-G-O" into enemy flesh - thirty seconds better spent taking enemy lives? For a man whose work will never be finished, such an incident suggests that Draigo seems to waste time on the most irresponsible displays of egotism, like a playground bully who doesn't take any lunch money, but instead pulls out a magic marker and draws pictures on the faces of his victims.

 

The kind that's out for vengeance for his fallen brother and predecessor. I think it goes without saying that the last player on the field for Chaos with a Primarch Daemon Prince incursion is going to be said Primarch Daemon Prince. So it's not like he's wasting time when he's literally carving the name of his fallen leader and brother into the heart of the daemon that murdered him. For all we know the whole chapter was there to seek vengeance for their fallen leader. How many times have we seen a Chapter Master fall in battle? As in the actual battle is told rather than So and So of this Chapter died in Waaaagh Skullthumper. I can't think of a single one. And the Grey Knights being who they are, and what they do, the loss of their leader to their arch enemy is blow to morale.

 

The fact that you're putting it on such different terms between Angron and Mortarion kind of proves your mind is already made up to hate the fluff. If 100 Grey Knights can beat down Angron, what makes it so X amount of Grey Knights can't bind Mortarion long enough for Draigo to carve his predecessor's name in Mortarion's heart so he remembers his defeat and humiliation for all eternity.

 

Edit: Plus, I think the only example of a Primarch dying by any other hands than his brother is Rogal Dorn. He died fighting regular Chaos Space Marines. So if a ship full of Chaos Space Marines can kill Rogal Dorn, then the Grey Knights can best Mortarion and leave a little reminder.

[Marmande]

Even if there was no permanent scarring, the fact that Draigo was able to accomplish it was all it took to piss off Mortarion, which qualified as "kinda cool". The less details we have on the matter, say, unlike Calgar's fight with the Avatar, the better. Everything after that is just...yea.

[Irbis]

Thanks for the support Alex, but we can safely argue this:

One hundred Grey Knight Terminators before Matt Ward means something different from one hundred Grey Knight Terminators after Matt Ward, and by drawing an equal relationship between a pre-Ward Grey Knight Terminator and a post-Ward Grey Knight Terminator, Irbis basically decontextualizes the term.

 

Except... We know literally nothing about GK chapter structure pre-new Codex, we don't know how they were divided, deployed novices, how many Terminators are actually veterans... It's like SM player complaining Ward "invented" Stern/Vanguard, despite divide between Chapter's elite, in the form of Tactical/Assault Terminators were there for ages.

 

And given this healthy entourage that accompanies every Daemon Primarch, how can we believe that it would take any smaller number of Grey Knights to help our "Supreme Grand Master" defeat Mortarion?

 

Again, [citation needed]. In other words, proof. If both Supreme Grand Master and best regular Grand Master take the battle, plus unknown support forces, they're going to have far more than "just" 100 Terminators with them in their battle companies, even if you count only veteran Terminators.

 

In a serious fight to the death, I doubt that a Primarch can even stop to carve the letter "Z" for Zorro into another Primarch's armour, unless a third Primarch is holding the victim from behind. Mortarion is a Primarch - even if a Grey Knight Grand Master has a boatload of help on hand, how many Grey Knights must sit on Mortarion's arms and legs to keep him from moving, and how many more must keep every other Daemon Prince at bay, and how many more must swat away the swarming Nurglings that will invariably spring from Mortarion's exposed innards? For that matter, what sort of incompetent fool would spend even thirty seconds carving the letters "D-R-A-I-G-O" into enemy flesh - thirty seconds better spent taking enemy lives? For a man whose work will never be finished, such an incident suggests that Draigo seems to waste time on the most irresponsible displays of egotism, like a playground bully who doesn't take any lunch money, but instead pulls out a magic marker and draws pictures on the faces of his victims.

 

Except, he didn't wrote his name, he carved the name of his Lord that Mortarion just killed. For revenge. And to make Mortarion always remember the man. Which is quite poetic, if you ask me :P

 

And, again, assumption that Draigo and Co (wait, wasn't he supposed to be alone?) were overwhelmed instead of them just finished burning all other daemons and being free to deal with the last threat might be... unwarranted, you know. As is the one that Mortarion can still move fast, unless he is rolling like a barrel :P

 

You know, between wrong Primarchs and wrong names, can we ask critics to read the piece in question before hating it? B)

[AlexHolker]

Except... We know literally nothing about GK chapter structure pre-new Codex, we don't know how they were divided, deployed novices, how many Terminators are actually veterans... It's like SM player complaining Ward "invented" Stern/Vanguard, despite divide between Chapter's elite, in the form of Tactical/Assault Terminators were there for ages.

Both these claims are wrong. First, ever since Rogue Trader, the only Grey Knights who wore terminator armour were the veterans, and that includes back when the PAGKs were just ordinary bolter-armed Space Marines. Second, the "divide between the Chapter's elite" was never between Tactical and Assault terminators, it was between Terminator armour and Power armour.

[Irbis]

Both these claims are wrong. First, ever since Rogue Trader, the only Grey Knights who wore terminator armour were the veterans,

 

And? Paladins, the GK veterans, are still Terminator-only... :tu:

 

All Ward defined is just when GK get their TA, at which point of their training. Which was untouched by previous Codex. Except, it had units going to battle in PA despite having access to TA.

 

...just like this one does B)

 

By the way, previous codex did not gave you the ability to take GK Terminators. All you could do was to take one (or more, up to 5) GK Captains, and give them Terminator retinue. Which suggested every GK company is just 5 men strong (which made no sense, really). These were not your regular SM Terminator units, these were (at best) Paladin retinues. Which are still elites, like these of old were. What are we getting now are real Terminators, filling the slot between elite retinue and PAGK, not as experienced but still veteran GK. All this changes is more steps of progression in their life, instead of GK Brother Generik suddenly jumping between very diverse units.

 

Ps. In fact, I just checked my GK Codex, and I cannot find the page on which I can find the statement that only GK veterans carry TA. Can you give me a number?

 

and that includes back when the PAGKs were just ordinary bolter-armed Space Marines.

 

I was wondering if I should point out how GK were rewritten in 3rd Edition, much more seriously then than they got now, with replacing and trashing instead of adding, but I decided against it. Thanks for reminding, though.

 

Second, the "divide between the Chapter's elite" was never between Tactical and Assault terminators, it was between Terminator armour and Power armour.

 

Care to elaborate your point? Because to me, the main problem criticism had with SM Codex was "invention" of new units, that had to be there all along by natural progression. Unless I remember something wrong, of course.

[Vindicatus]

For the longest time, Chapters destinguished their elite veterans by inducting them into the 1st company, which was primarily made up of TDA-equipped marines and certain elitest vehicles or members of the chapter that wouldn't fall under a squad doctrine (chief librarians and Chaplains, possibly certain dreadnoughts).

 

I agree that inventing new units (like Sterngard/etc) sort of makes the idea of an elite first company walking around in the more rare, honour-steeped suits of TDA a little disingenuous.

 

I think the point made by everyone disagreeing with GK's immediately being given suits of TDA is the fact that, according to pre-Ward fluff, 'Terminators' were THE elite. They were the biggest billy-badasses on a block filled with nothing but badasses to begin with. With the 'fleshing out' of the fluff, he's effectively destroyed that previously established image. Worse, people are cross referencing post-ward 'Terminators' to pre-Ward fluff (taking the terminators into the fight against Mortarion).

[Irbis]

For the longest time, Chapters destinguished their elite veterans by inducting them into the 1st company, which was primarily made up of TDA-equipped marines and certain elitest vehicles or members of the chapter that wouldn't fall under a squad doctrine (chief librarians and Chaplains, possibly certain dreadnoughts).

 

I agree that inventing new units (like Sterngard/etc) sort of makes the idea of an elite first company walking around in the more rare, honour-steeped suits of TDA a little disingenuous.

 

I was under impression that, since so big deal was made about only Deathwing being able to field ~100 Terminator suits that the idea that any chapter outside of the old Legion successors (and not even all of these 9 Chapters) was also able to field 100 Terminators was extremely suspect. Ergo, most 1st companies were walking around in PA. Ergo, Sternguard wasn't invented at all, despite what critics said then.

 

I think the point made by everyone disagreeing with GK's immediately being given suits of TDA is the fact that, according to pre-Ward fluff, 'Terminators' were THE elite. They were the biggest billy-badasses on a block filled with nothing but badasses to begin with. With the 'fleshing out' of the fluff, he's effectively destroyed that previously established image. Worse, people are cross referencing post-ward 'Terminators' to pre-Ward fluff (taking the terminators into the fight against Mortarion).

 

And the same is in play here - there was literally zero information when GK got his Terminator suit, so Ward decided not to cheapen them, as opposition says, but to make every single GK into badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company. Which is what they are, really. And that somehow cheapens them? :lol:

 

IMHO, you want to have elite of the elite, you can now field Paladins, as troops, even, instead of these poor retinues of old Codex, that save for a few tricks were worse than modern Hammernators, point-for-point. Ward tried to make them into real, modern elite... and that makes them less badass? :huh:

 

People tell me I'm hugely, overly critical, and I can critique anything into the ground, but the above is too much for me, sorry. I know I won't convince anyone, so I'll stop at this post, but posts calling for GW to behead Ward or to give GK players some respect (by what, making GK even more elite than Ward did? By leaving current Codex, said to be crap now? By making GK weaker than they were, which would make them laughing stock of the WH40K, but some seem to prefer this than Ward?) are taking matters beyond the beyond serious, IMHO.

[HERO]

Ps. In fact, I just checked my GK Codex, and I cannot find the page on which I can find the statement that only GK veterans carry TA. Can you give me a number?

 

So you have access to the actual, real codex?

[AlexHolker]

And the same is in play here - there was literally zero information when GK got his Terminator suit, so Ward decided not to cheapen them, as opposition says, but to make every single GK into badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company. Which is what they are, really. And that somehow cheapens them? :D

You're making things up. If Ward made "every single GK into a badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company", why did he nerf them? A1 Ld8 marines are not worthy of serving in the 1st Company.

[Justcar]

And the same is in play here - there was literally zero information when GK got his Terminator suit, so Ward decided not to cheapen them, as opposition says, but to make every single GK into badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company. Which is what they are, really. And that somehow cheapens them? :D

You're making things up. If Ward made "every single GK into a badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company", why did he nerf them? A1 Ld8 marines are not worthy of serving in the 1st Company.

 

Terminators have 2 attacks and Ld 9

[AlexHolker]

And the same is in play here - there was literally zero information when GK got his Terminator suit, so Ward decided not to cheapen them, as opposition says, but to make every single GK into badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company. Which is what they are, really. And that somehow cheapens them? :D

You're making things up. If Ward made "every single GK into a badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company", why did he nerf them? A1 Ld8 marines are not worthy of serving in the 1st Company.

Terminators have 2 attacks and Ld 9

What part of "every single GK" don't you understand? Irbis's argument is that all GKs are 1st Company material, not just the terminators.

[HERO]

In a serious fight to the death, I doubt that a Primarch can even stop to carve the letter "Z" for Zorro into another Primarch's armour, unless a third Primarch is holding the victim from behind. Mortarion is a Primarch - even if a Grey Knight Grand Master has a boatload of help on hand, how many Grey Knights must sit on Mortarion's arms and legs to keep him from moving, and how many more must keep every other Daemon Prince at bay, and how many more must swat away the swarming Nurglings that will invariably spring from Mortarion's exposed innards? For that matter, what sort of incompetent fool would spend even thirty seconds carving the letters "D-R-A-I-G-O" into enemy flesh - thirty seconds better spent taking enemy lives? For a man whose work will never be finished, such an incident suggests that Draigo seems to waste time on the most irresponsible displays of egotism, like a playground bully who doesn't take any lunch money, but instead pulls out a magic marker and draws pictures on the faces of his victims.

 

And, assuming that the Deathshroud were dead, killed by Draigo before he bested Mortarian in combat.

 

quite the lol if you ask me

[Irbis]

So you have access to the actual, real codex?

 

No, the previous one. The one you can now download from GW site. Since the whole 'only GK veterans carry TA' was bolded, I assume the poster making this claim has some kind of proof of this. Actual Codex says only that TA is carried by veterans, not only by the veterans.

 

Because, as of now, people hate Ward for novice scout Draigo killing Horus, alone, armed with lasgun and flak vest, before the Heresy, while driving Ferrari F1 car. That is, for things that didn't exactly happened :down:

 

You're making things up. If Ward made "every single GK into a badass worthy of being in normal Chapter's 1st company", why did he nerf them? A1 Ld8 marines are not worthy of serving in the 1st Company.

 

Really. Except, you somehow forgot that they were A1 in the old Codex, too, A2 was just bonus given by armour :blink:

 

Nerfed by giving them the exact same statline. Does not compute, you know.

 

And, assuming that the Deathshroud were dead, killed by Draigo before he bested Mortarian in combat.

 

quite the lol if you ask me

 

Yeah, except I already mentioned two Grand Masters are going to have multiple companies (100 hundred Terminator strong each) between them, minimum, plus their own Paladin retinues. Yet, the part about Draigo killing them all alone still lives, I see.

 

...

 

You know what guys? I give up. You want to hate Ward? Fine, but do so after reading the new Codex, and in some cases, the old one, too, you know, hate him on facts, not prejudices and things you heard wrong and/or invented :D

[Gentlemanloser]

Really. Except, you somehow forgot that they were A1 in the old Codex, too, A2 was just bonus given by armour

 

IIRC, the +1A from wearing TDA actually comes from having Terminator Honours, and not the armour itself. It's just those wearing TDA *also* have Terminator Honours.

 

And The honours were to represent a 'veteren' who was then trained/repected enough to wear a suit of TDA.

 

It's why Inquisitors who purhcase TDA from the armoury don't gain a +1A.