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C:DA5 - What do you expect?


con-fusion

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With recent rumors, the two ongoing projects in this forum, and my own exploration of alternative list building techniques, I have been thinking about my expectations for C:DA5. To me, Project:Redemption has been about bringing C:DA4 up to date, and Project:Unforgiven has been about creating a whole new codex for all Unforgiven Chapters. However, I haven't seen anything where we're exploring our expectations regarding what GW will do in a future release. Accordingly, I'd like to pose the question (in rough form): What do you expect from the army list in C:DA5?

 

Here's what I think we'll get:

 

Special Characters

 

Azrael

Ezekiel

Belial

Sammael

Asmodai

2-3 others (maybe from other Unforgiven Chapters)

 

HQ

 

Grand Master - Same as C:SM5 Chapter Master - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Master - Same as C:SM5 Captain - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Librarian - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

MotF- Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Interrogator Chaplain - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + some other ability

Honor Guard - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Command Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

 

Troops

 

Tactical Squad - Same as C:BA5 - Red Thirst + Stubborn

Scout Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

 

Dedicated Transports

 

Rhino - Same as C:SM5

Razorback - Same as C:SM5

Drop Pod - Same as C:SM5

 

Elites

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Deathwing Terminator Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Assault Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Company Veteran Squad - Same as C:SM5 Sternguard Veteran Squad - special ammo and Combat Tactics + Stubborn and close combat oriented options

Venerable Dreadnought - Same as C:SM5 + Mortis options

Dreadnought - Same as C:SM5

Ironclad Dreadnought - Same as C:SM5

Techmarine and Servitors - Same as C:SM5

1 additional Elite option

 

Fast Attack

 

Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Speeder Squad - Same as C:SM5

Space Marine Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Attack Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Speeder Storm - Same as C:SM5

Scout Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 Space Marine Bike Squad - Combat Tactics + Stubborn, Scouts, Infiltrate, and all members have Vet Statistics

 

Heavy Support

 

Devastator Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Thunderfire Cannon - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Raider - Same as C:SM5

Land Raider Crusader - Same as C:SM5

Land Raider Redeemer - Same as C:SM5

Predator - Same as C:SM5

Whirlwind - Same as C:SM5

Vindicator - Same as C:SM5

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I'm actually not expecting much of a future codex: I'm happy with what I have and try to adapt to what is available.

 

On the other hand, I understand that C: SM has to be the benchmark... but I'd expect something more particular of DA and less general (TWC, Furioso, etc).

 

I'd really like the option of DS+assault or even better, to chain assault like we could back in 4th.

 

And probably removing some of the restictions and the +5 models for X points.

 

BTW, its impossible to keep up pace with you guys in the rules development...you are building Caliban's Great Wall xD

Well, I mostly agree with what you have, I have my own views on how I'd like to see things done. Changes I will make in bold.

 

With recent rumors, the two ongoing projects in this forum, and my own exploration of alternative list building techniques, I have been thinking about my expectations for C:DA5. To me, Project:Redemption has been about bringing C:DA4 up to date, and Project:Unforgiven has been about creating a whole new codex for all Unforgiven Chapters. However, I haven't seen anything where we're exploring our expectations regarding what GW will do in a future release. Accordingly, I'd like to pose the question (in rough form): What do you expect from the army list in C:DA5?

 

Here's what I think we'll get:

 

Special Characters

 

Asmodai

Ezekiel

Belial

Sammael

Asmodai

2-3 others (maybe from other Unforgiven Chapters)

 

HQ

 

Grand Master - Same as C:SM5 Chapter Master - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Master - Same as C:SM5 Captain - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Interrogator Librarian -same stats as C:BA reclusiarch, access to all DA powers, can use 2 per turn - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

MotF- Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Interrogator Chaplain - Same as C:BA Reclusiarch - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + some other ability

Honor Guard - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Command Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

deathwing command squad

ravenwing command squad

Troops

 

Tactical Squad - Same as C:BA5 - Red Thirst + Stubborn

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Deathwing Terminator Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Assault Squad, + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 Space Marine Bike Squad - Combat Tactics + Stubborn, Scouts, Infiltrate,

 

Dedicated Transports

 

Rhino - Same as C:SM5

Razorback - Same as C:SM5

Drop Pod - Same as C:SM5

 

Elites

Scout Squad - Same as C:DA4, maybe tweaked points plus some extra options - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

chaplain, weaker version with 2 wounds ws5 bs4 ld9

librarian, weaker version, 2 wounds ws5, bs4, doesnt have access to all DA powers, and can only use 1 power per turn

Venerable Dreadnought - Same as C:SM5 give armor 13 like ironclad

Dreadnought - Same as C:SM5

 

Techmarine and Servitors - Same as C:SM5

1 additional Elite option

 

Fast Attack

 

Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5, but some options are added in, instead of just being able to take plasma pistol on some normal marines, they could choose from some power weapon options too - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Speeder Squad - Same as C:SM5, have a special ravenwing combat squad rule so that for each ravenwing bike squad, one speeder from a speeder squad can split off on its own

Space Marine Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Attack Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Speeder Storm - Same as C:SM5

Scout Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

 

 

Heavy Support

Mortis dreadnaught

Devastator Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Thunderfire Cannon - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Raider - Same as C:SM5

Land Raider Crusader - Same as C:SM5

Predator - Same as C:SM5

Whirlwind - Same as C:SM5

Vindicator - Same as C:SM5

 

I'd get rid of ironclad and the LR redeemer, I think our venerable dreads should have the ironclad armor, and I dont think redeemers fit our style all that much.

Yeah that's also how I see the whole thing upcoming... Except for 3-4 points

 

Here's what I think we'll get:

 

Special Characters

Belial

Sammael

 

Actually I'd rather see generic entry like "Master of DW" and "Master of RW" with different weapon/wargear choices (particulary for the DW, The MoRW doesn't need that much). It would let more flexibility to players and would prevent to forbid some of our most strengthes just by refusing named characters... ;)

 

Interrogator Chaplain - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + some other ability

Just give them back the blades of Reasons. Game effect : always wound on 4+ (it's more a wish than expectation)

 

Honor Guard - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

If they do so then I see them fighting in Termi armour (just like BA honour guard have jetpacks)

 

Deathwing Terminator Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Deathwing Terminator Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Assault Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Mix n' match is one of the DA particularity... I don't think they'd loose it

But they'll surely raise the TH/SS options costs to +5or 10pts/model and raise the CML cost as well.

 

Company Veteran Squad - Same as C:SM5 Sternguard Veteran Squad - special ammo and Combat Tactics + Stubborn and close combat oriented options

 

I thin GW would prefer to keep them unique, not SM-like... + they 've seen all the abuse of podding sternguards so... Don't think they want to re-do the same error

 

Space Marine Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Attack Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Land Speeder Storm - Same as C:SM5

Scout Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 - Combat Tactics + Stubborn

Ravenwing Bike Squad - Same as C:SM5 Space Marine Bike Squad - Combat Tactics + Stubborn, Scouts, Infiltrate, and all members have Vet Statistics

 

I don't think the 8th company addition are necessary. And I don't think that GW game conceptor even remeber the fact that DA have green bikes/speeders ;)

 

As for the RW bike squad I'd rather see keeping the RW bike squadron concept but with the following flexibility :

- Containing 3 bikes, you can add 3 additional bikes for +Xpts

- You can add an independant Attack bike for +Xpts or 2 additionnal bike for +Xpts

- If the squadron contains at least 6bikes, you can add a LS (with different LS options) for + Xpts or an attack bike for + Xpts or 2 additional bikes for +Xpts

 

That way you can have a squadron with 10 bikes, or a squadron with 6 bikes + 2 independant AB etc etc much more flexible. Of course you can divide them in 2 squadrons of 3, 4 or 5 bikes depending the number you have at the beginning.

 

I think they would remove scout by skilled rider: that way an IC would not affect the sqaudron as they do now and GW won't give the abusive scout rule to a chaplain/librarian

 

@ Xyon :

 

deathwing command squad

ravenwing command squad

I really don't expect that change... Our current DW and RW command squad are scoring. this is REALLY necessary to keep them scoring, particulary for RW, cos If I had to choose between an expensive scoring unit and an expensive NON scoring unit with exactly the same rules, be sure I'd take the scoring ones... Like everybody would... and then you'd see no more RW command squad on the table...

I forgot to say, I'd want to replace dreadnaught missile launchers with either cyclone missile launchers or typhoon launchers, both are the same now so it wouldent matter which. But the venerable would be able to get shoulder mounted cyclone launcher instead of swapping out CCW.

 

As to the command squad issue. I would have the DW and RW command squads be completely different from the regular squads, better stats, more wargear options, like relic blades. Or command squad bikes that have bike mounted twin linked plasma guns, twin linked storm bolters, that kinda stuff.

Deathwing Terminator Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Deathwing Terminator Assault Squad - Same as C:SM5 Terminator Assault Squad + Deathwing Assault - Combat Tactics and ATSKNF + Fearless

Mix n' match is one of the DA particularity... I don't think they'd loose it

But they'll surely raise the TH/SS options costs to +5or 10pts/model and raise the CML cost as well.

 

That's possible too, but I don't expect it. Losing mix-and-match will be the price we pay to go to 10 Termie squads. Something tells me that DA Termies will be special because any squad will be able to take a LR as a Dedicated Transport (C:SM5 limits LR Dedicated Transports to one squad of each type of termie).

 

Company Veteran Squad - Same as C:SM5 Sternguard Veteran Squad - special ammo and Combat Tactics + Stubborn and close combat oriented options

 

I thin GW would prefer to keep them unique, not SM-like... + they 've seen all the abuse of podding sternguards so... Don't think they want to re-do the same error

 

I agree. That's why I think they will remove the special ammo and Combat Tactics, add in Stubborn and allow some extra close combat oriented options. This will make company vets able mix and match but lacking in the ability to be perfect for each role.

As to the command squad issue. I would have the DW and RW command squads be completely different from the regular squads, better stats, more wargear options, like relic blades. Or command squad bikes that have bike mounted twin linked plasma guns, twin linked storm bolters, that kinda stuff.

That would make them too expensive to be playable... An army with lots of RW or DW is composed of few units. At the beginning you already have less scoring units than your opponent. If GW does so I don't expect to see lots of such squad on the table, except on Apocalypse games.

 

That's possible too, but I don't expect it. Losing mix-and-match will be the price we pay to go to 10 Termie squads. Something tells me that DA Termies will be special because any squad will be able to take a LR as a Dedicated Transport (C:SM5 limits LR Dedicated Transports to one squad of each type of termie).

Actually I'm not sure that GW would get rid of the 5men squads.

Again that would make the DW more different from the vanilla ones.

Just give me a Land Raider Redeemer, and I'll be happy. :P

Yep.

Currently I have no confidence in GWs design team that our next codex will be an improvement, I am not even 100% sure it wont just be vanilla 6 beta.

 

Yes, sadly we seem to have sunk nearer to the bottom of the Codex list. I can't help but feel that at the moment our codex does little but change the name of the squads from 'Tactical squad' to 'Dark Angels Tactical squad'. Sure if you make a RW or Deathwing army it does loads for you, but for us 5th company 'normal' guys... I just wonder; why not use C:SM? So much more stuff, and all I'd have to give up is the ability to mix-match Termi squads, and the Ravenwing stuff.

 

Stupid sense of honor, why do you make me feel bad for thinking about it?? :tu:

You do get special weapons in a 5 man squad. That makes them marginally better than Codex Marines as long as you play multiple small units. Given that mech spam is 5th edition, multiple meltagun squads with Razorbacks (but only the lascannon option sadly) are a useful enough choice. 10 with multi-melta, flamer and Rhino are only a few points dearer than a Codex squad (although without combat tactics they are paying more for less).

 

You're right that Dark Angels Greenwing still get the shaft, but with a significant improvement in Death/Ravenwing a mixed wing has gotten better than it was. I would take Belial because a Captain with thunder hammer and shield for 130 points is a bargin. He even makes your army leadership 10.

I expect to see Great-Supreme-Grand-Super-Master Azrael will team up with Ghazghkull Thraka against the Nightbringer, and Azrael will win by headbutting the C'tan to death. After which, he'll give Ghazghkull a Watcher in the Dark as a sign of respect for how well they fought together.
Just give me a Land Raider Redeemer, and I'll be happy. :lol:

Yep.

Currently I have no confidence in GWs design team that our next codex will be an improvement, I am not even 100% sure it wont just be vanilla 6 beta.

 

Yes, sadly we seem to have sunk nearer to the bottom of the Codex list. I can't help but feel that at the moment our codex does little but change the name of the squads from 'Tactical squad' to 'Dark Angels Tactical squad'. Sure if you make a RW or Deathwing army it does loads for you, but for us 5th company 'normal' guys... I just wonder; why not use C:SM? So much more stuff, and all I'd have to give up is the ability to mix-match Termi squads, and the Ravenwing stuff.

 

Stupid sense of honor, why do you make me feel bad for thinking about it?? :)

Cheer up, GW have done a great job building varied codexes that are ballenced against one another quite well since 5th edition. Does that suck a bit for older codexes, uhm , yeah. But the weaker points are just that, build around those. focus on the positives in your lists 40 point rhino's with 4 SB shots a turn, a special in a squad of 5, a venerable dread for 20 points extra. and if you are mindfull of the more expensive bits, you can keep the "extra"points spent quite low. So those 15 points you payed extra will not matter so much.

 

SW, BA, SM, IG, Nids and DE can all go toe to toe with eachother as they are close enough for the listbuilding and the general to matter.

Also each new codex has seen a focus on more and more varied typical units making a chapter more unique. The DA codex like the Chaos codex where written from a completely different design perspective (About 180 degrees turned around.) So why despair that the new DA will atomatically suck when all evidense of new current dexes point to a diverse codex with several powerfull build styles in one codex and updates prices and more typically DA thing making us more unique?

 

Bit of a glass half empty approach no?

 

I expect;

- Sacred standards to return with brother bethor.

- Interrogator chaplain Asmodai to return

- Points equalled with codex BA

- Added Stormraven (Likely)

- WS to 6 on masters/captains, some eternal warrior e.g. on Azrael

- Some change to sammael cause he is currently overpriced

- Some changes to Belial (Buffed maybe, but also more points. (Sad cause I love him now.)

- Added razer variant(s)

- Unique DA weaponry

- Some unique DA special rule

- Some unique DA unit/vehicle.

- Mortids dreadnought perhaps?

- Re-worked Psychic powers on a Ld 10 librarian.

 

@Piousservant You expect Matt Ward to write it then?

That's possible too, but I don't expect it. Losing mix-and-match will be the price we pay to go to 10 Termie squads. Something tells me that DA Termies will be special because any squad will be able to take a LR as a Dedicated Transport (C:SM5 limits LR Dedicated Transports to one squad of each type of termie).

 

I understand balance needs to happen. But why do we need 10 terminators? If they were going to keep fearless, would it not make more sense to simply keep the 5 terminator max and with it the mixing?

 

I also don't expect something like "red thirst" for a basic tactical squad - can you explain why you do?

 

And while I'm doing the opposite and saying things I don't expect, don't you think stubborn and combat tactics are slightly contradictory? The thought of being stubborn only when we want to (e.g. no leadership modifiers yet being able to fall back if we choose anyway) does not seem very stubborn. I'd call for one or the other, not both. The Wolves and BA don't have it and other Chapter HQs switch combat tactics out for something else.

 

 

- Added Stormraven (Likely)

 

A little off topic, as honestly, I don't expect this buuuut....

 

A thought occurred to me a while ago about how a Stormraven in a DA army would be painted. I figured it would belong to the armory and hence be the proper color. But then I thought it's rapid deployment nature might benefit the Ravenwing - and it would look cool in such a color scheme... which finally came me to think about a rapid deployment method for bike squads. What if there was a Ravenwing Stormraven variant (I know, thats a lot of raven) which carried bikes (or maybe a landspeeder) instead of it's Dread and the rest of the squad sat within. It would probably have to be a 5 man though. What if it could carry both a Landspeeder on the outside and 5 bikes within but scarified weapons for extra interior space.

 

Would this have any tactical benefit in game? I could see it has deep striking to set the bikes ahead in a more tactically safe well covered area rather than having them buzzing through an open killzone.

Just give me a Land Raider Redeemer, and I'll be happy. :P

Yep.

Currently I have no confidence in GWs design team that our next codex will be an improvement, I am not even 100% sure it wont just be vanilla 6 beta.

 

Yes, sadly we seem to have sunk nearer to the bottom of the Codex list. I can't help but feel that at the moment our codex does little but change the name of the squads from 'Tactical squad' to 'Dark Angels Tactical squad'. Sure if you make a RW or Deathwing army it does loads for you, but for us 5th company 'normal' guys... I just wonder; why not use C:SM? So much more stuff, and all I'd have to give up is the ability to mix-match Termi squads, and the Ravenwing stuff.

 

Stupid sense of honor, why do you make me feel bad for thinking about it?? :rolleyes:

Cheer up, GW have done a great job building varied codexes that are ballenced against one another quite well since 5th edition. Does that suck a bit for older codexes, uhm , yeah. But the weaker points are just that, build around those. focus on the positives in your lists 40 point rhino's with 4 SB shots a turn, a special in a squad of 5, a venerable dread for 20 points extra. and if you are mindfull of the more expensive bits, you can keep the "extra"points spent quite low. So those 15 points you payed extra will not matter so much.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm quite happy. But that doesn't keep me from wishing I could use all the cool stuff from C:SM. ;)

 

@gazmac

 

:cuss Now I'm going to have to by a ThunderBudgie...

A thought occurred to me a while ago about how a Stormraven in a DA army would be painted. I figured it would belong to the armory and hence be the proper color. But then I thought it's rapid deployment nature might benefit the Ravenwing - and it would look cool in such a color scheme... which finally came me to think about a rapid deployment method for bike squads. What if there was a Ravenwing Stormraven variant (I know, thats a lot of raven) which carried bikes (or maybe a landspeeder) instead of it's Dread and the rest of the squad sat within. It would probably have to be a 5 man though. What if it could carry both a Landspeeder on the outside and 5 bikes within but scarified weapons for extra interior space.

 

A StormRavenwing? Gotta admit, that would be kind of cool...

A thought occurred to me a while ago about how a Stormraven in a DA army would be painted. I figured it would belong to the armory and hence be the proper color. But then I thought it's rapid deployment nature might benefit the Ravenwing - and it would look cool in such a color scheme... which finally came me to think about a rapid deployment method for bike squads. What if there was a Ravenwing Stormraven variant (I know, thats a lot of raven) which carried bikes (or maybe a landspeeder) instead of it's Dread and the rest of the squad sat within. It would probably have to be a 5 man though. What if it could carry both a Landspeeder on the outside and 5 bikes within but scarified weapons for extra interior space.

 

A StormRavenwing? Gotta admit, that would be kind of cool...

 

Haha... Well, for an official name, they could always toss the name of a particular campaign, world, or just some interesting sounding word with a relation to it's function. Like a Land Raider CRUSADER or a DAMOCLES Rhino...

 

Actually, I can already think of the back story for it's invention. A campaign taking place in part on blasted desert area with sparse cover, the enemy using this cover wherever possible for anti-air batteries. Thunderhawk dropships, due to their larger size, were much more easily targeted and it was imperative that an advance force of Ravenwing Bikers were dropped in to deal with these anti-air batteries swiftly. Something small and fast was needed - a Stormraven. The Techmarines set to work on the solution, replacing the standard Stormraven's Dreadnought clamp with a hydraulic servo rack to drop the Ravenwing's bikes as they disembark like shadows in the night near substantial cover to reach out and destroy the batteries.

Ravenwing Stormraven, that would be a mouthful to say fast...

 

But I love the idea!! I hope we get Asmodai back, and I want to see Sapphon brought into it, I think hes awesome and I really like him. Also, I expect to see some special character from one of our unforgiven successors...kinda like Seth in C: BA. Also, want to see the RW become the bestest bikers and the DW being the bestest Termies...but thats wishful thinking...

How many special characters do the SW, BA, DA and IG have? I believe that will be the same for Dark Angels.

 

Will we have 5 or 10 men Terminator squads? I don't know. Do the other codicies have fearless Termies? If so, then I guess we will have 10 men Termies. If not then we have 5 men.

 

Will our Termies be a troop choice just like Grey Knights have, according to rumour? Maybe maybe not. Then agian, we can have two types of termies, DW termies which are fearless and 5 men squads that are troops and Elite Termies that are not Fearless and 10 man squads.

 

We could still have Elite Troops but Naaman that could make them Troops. More options for the RW and no scoring speeders this time.

 

I think we better options for Sammy so they can sell him on his jet bike. More fluff, hopefully some new fluff will be added as well.

 

I also hope they have rules for Fallen as well so you can have 2 different types of armies in the book.

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