Leman Russ scared to fight idea

[Perrin]

First post on this forum, hello everyone.

 

I was readin some topics earlier about the HH and something AD-B wrote gave me an idea. He said something about the DA and Space Wolves being held up by the Alphas to stop them getting to Terra in time, and that the DA were trying to rush full speed to Terra while the Space Wolves were jst strolling along knocking traitor heads together, making sure they destroyed any traitor marines along the way. At least i think thats what i read, if it wasnt then this falls apart here.

 

Basically, the idea was that with the rumour in the Angels of Darkness novel was that the Lion waited until he knew which side was winning/had won before emerging into the Sol System. Soo my idea was that, if anyone wanted to add even more rumours and secret mysteries to the HH then they could write that the real reason Russ and his wolves werent rushing to save the Emperor was because Russ, the born executioner, was scared that he wouldnt have been able to defeat Horus.

From any Primarch this would seem crazy, espiecally Russ, but he was the one created to be the Emperors Executioner, his role was basically the Primarch Killer (going on what it says in Prospero Burns), so if he thought that Horus could beat him then it would be everything he is, and everything he was created to do would be pointless.

Im not saying that Russ is the most powerful Primarch and could beat all the others in a fight, but from what i got from the book he is designed for this role.

I think this would also fit the idea that Leman Russ is a fake Barbarian, it says in Prospero Burns and possibly A Thousand Sons that his barbarian personality is put on, like he always plays the part of the savage wolf king but he is purposfully playing it.

Russ departing for the EoT for no apparent reason could back this up, he could be searching for something to prove to himself again that he isnt afraid, and that he can face whatever comes agaisnt him. But the HH is already full of plots and secrets, and introducing this could ruin one of the greatest Legions/Chapters in the Imperium.

Just an idea that i wish i had the writing skills to put into a novel :(

was wondering what everyone thought of it

[c-wrex]

First of all, welcome!

 

Second, I believe I remember reading, though not where, that Russ was the only primarch who could best Horus in a one on one sparring duel. Perhaps some of our rabid wolf brothers can provide a source.

 

Also, I don't think it was that the wolves were hesitant to reach Terra, it was that the Alpha Legion fleet that was out there harassing his was significantly larger, and fighting in the style of their legion, which was not at all conducive to quick and decisive battles, but to prolonged, misdirecting actions. The Wolves simply could not simply abandon the fight with the Legionnaires, both because of their particular mindset, and also that the Alpha Legion is a threat which cannot be ignored, as they are skilled in numerous ways to hurt their opponents, direct and otherwise.

 

Russ would never balk from a fight against someone threatening his liege/father, but was delayed in getting there. The Lion may be a cunning manipulator and personal strategist, but Russ was as loyal as the primarchs came.

[Legatus]

From any Primarch this would seem crazy, espiecally Russ, but he was the one created to be the Emperors Executioner, his role was basically the Primarch Killer (going on what it says in Prospero Burns), so if he thought that Horus could beat him then it would be everything he is, and everything he was created to do would be pointless.

Im not saying that Russ is the most powerful Primarch and could beat all the others in a fight, but from what i got from the book he is designed for this role.

He isn't. But the Space Wolves certainly like to think that he is.

 

 

Anyway, in a heated argument Dorn had once called Guilliman a coward for not being at the Battle for Terra, so it is not inconceivable that he would (in a heated moment) say the same about Russ. But I don't think that Dorn would honestly think that either Guilliman or Russ are actually cowards. He had just been enraged at the moment. But some detractors of Russ could certainly make up such conspiracy theories.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Second, I believe I remember reading, though not where, that Russ was the only primarch who could best Horus in a one on one sparring duel. Perhaps some of our rabid wolf brothers can provide a source.

 

I'd like to see that source as well, as its been requested before and never come to light. ;)

[c-wrex]

Second, I believe I remember reading, though not where, that Russ was the only primarch who could best Horus in a one on one sparring duel. Perhaps some of our rabid wolf brothers can provide a source.

 

I'd like to see that source as well, as its been requested before and never come to light. ;)

 

Come to think of it, I think I saw here, on this site. Most likely while trawling on the Fang.

[Decoy]

2nd Edition Codex, I believe. I'll get it when I return to school in a week or two.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

2nd Edition Codex, I believe. I'll get it when I return to school in a week or two.

 

Just went through it cover to cover; no mention of any direct conflict between Russ and Horus. Russ vs the Emperor, the Lion, and Magnus, yes, though it's pretty obvious they've long since left the fluff in that Codex behind: not only is the fight with Jonson a total draw between the two as opposed to the suckerpunch it is now, but Horus didn't die at Terra.

[Perrin]

2nd Edition Codex, I believe. I'll get it when I return to school in a week or two.

 

Just went through it cover to cover; no mention of any direct conflict between Russ and Horus. Russ vs the Emperor, the Lion, and Magnus, yes, though it's pretty obvious they've long since left the fluff in that Codex behind: not only is the fight with Jonson a total draw between the two as opposed to the suckerpunch it is now, but Horus didn't die at Terra.

 

OT but i have to ask, Horus didnt die at Terra? :P

I know its been retconned now but what was the original storyline?

[Spacefrisian]

Some things the OP fails to remember (or just doesnt)

 

-Russ and his Legion just faced the 1000 Sons, they lost many men during that fight.

-Horus had ordered several legions away from his goal again Russ his legion was amongst those.

-Russ was being hindered by the Alpha legion for a short while.

-Russ was more or less being kept in check by the Lion, if he hadnt done that Russ would most likely have arrived at Terra with just a few men, or more likely wouldnt have reached Terra at all.

[Doghouse]

I don't think it's a case of no wanting to fight by a long shot, if anything he'd probably be chomping at the bit! :P

 

I think it was more a case of the Alpha Legion being exceptionally good at hindering his efforts to get to earth in time. Then you have the chaos gods probably slowing them down as well with warp storms, so he probably had his work cut out for him.

 

Of all the Legions on the loyalist's side I think that the presence of the Space Wolves at Terra would have been the most damaging to Horus' efforts.

[Mac the knife]

With the losses sustained at Prospero I doubt the Wolves would have been nearly as damaging to Horus' efforts as the Ultramarines would have been. If i remember correctly didn't Robute's legion have twice the number of a standard legion and the Space Wolves were a small legion to begin with. Just an idea.

 

But i can see it having caused huge issues for Horus if both the DA and SW arrived together.

 

Thinking Russ would've feared Horus is an interesting idea that would probably bring out the wulfen in the brothers at the Fang though

[Razhbad]

Ok your idea is interesting one when you think of it. Best way I can help you is to list a few things that may help you and the sources.

 

 

Leman Russ and Horus have a fight and the Emperor breaks it up where he ends up knocking out Russ. Russ doesn’t talk to the Emperor for an entire year afterwards

- Last book of the Space Wolf Series (Lee Lightner)

 

 

When Corax sees that Angron is leading an army to destroy the remaining Raven Guard he realises that Angron will kill him. Corax believes the only Primarch that could beat Angron is Horus, may be Sanguinius

- Ravens Flight (Gav Thorpe)

 

 

The Space Wolf fleet links up with the White Scars to make route for Terra. The Alpha Legion turns up and the Khan appologies to Russ for leaving him to ensure the White Scars reach Terra

- Visions of Heresy (The old HH stuff that one).

 

And Finally with the Dark Angels:

 

 

They are not rushing towards Terra as the fleet cannot reach Terra due to the fierce Warp turmoil and instead fight a war with the Night Lords in the Eastern edges of the Galaxy for at least 2 years

- Savage Weapons (ADB's short in Age of Darkness).

[GooseDaMoose]

I thought the whole Primarch Killer thing came up and someone (think it might even have been A D-B ) said that that really wasn't the case, it was just barely hinted at in a way which could be interpreted in many different ways, but because people would like to believe it, most people take in the "Russ was there to kill other Primarchs" way.

 

I realise that i not make words sound good english but I'm tired :)

[Beef]

Russ feared no one. Hell he came to blows with the EMp twice (both times he was knocked unconcious by the emp) As for being the only one who could best Horus thats just fan fluff unfortunatly As i have traweled long and hard to find the source and it does not exist.

 

The wolves were hindered by the Alpha legions is newer retconned fluff, originally warp storms delayed the SW and DA from arriving in time. Yes the SW were a small legion but not that small (like the Sallies)

 

What Space fenrision says about the Lion keeping Russ in check is correct to a point, nobody could keep Russ in check. But the original Fluff had Russ stop along the way to liberate a planet from the traiters. the Lion when he saw the EMp dead blamed Russ for saying if they had not stopped they would have made it in time. Russ relising the Lion was greiving offered him his bared chest to strike him down if he thought it was true, the lion went to strike but at the last minute he turned his blade only pearcing one of Russ hearts.

 

Also at the OP Russ did not depart for the EOT to find something to prove himself. one of the older fluff has him departing to look for the tree of life BUT not so he could prove his loyalty or attone for any percieved weekness or cowardice. He was doing what any loayl son would do

 

Dam Rasbad you ninja, u posted just whilst i was typing

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

OT but i have to ask, Horus didnt die at Terra? :D

I know its been retconned now but what was the original storyline?

 

Going by what little is told in this ancient Codex, the Emperor gets wounded but too late in the game, and Horus and Co. are forced to retreat to the Eye after the Imperial counterattack drives them off Terra, with Horus swearing that one day he'll return to finish the job. Russ goes in 197 years later, with much speculation as to why (ranging from searching for his bestie Jonson, who vanished into the Eye earlier, all the way to taking the fight to Horus in advance), and is never heard from again. His final transmission is, of course, written in edda format, but basically says that Russ will return at the Imperium's darkest hour when Horus re-emerges from the Eye, in sort of a Fifth Element-style "When evil returns, so shall we" thing.

[Perrin]

Im glad it was changed then, Abbadon taking over makes it a little fairer for the Imperium, espiecally as Abbadon doesnt seem to be the best commander ive read about (going on his actions in Soul Hunter) but he has completed small objectives in each BC he has been a part of soo i guess maybe he is commited to the Long War.

 

I just want to clarify that I dnt believe that this was the case at all with Russ. The SW are one of my favourite legions/chapters and Russ is a kick-ass Primarch. I just think it would have been a good plot idea, say when the Horus Heresy was first written many years ago, or in some sort of alternate universe.

[Clewz]

OT but i have to ask, Horus didnt die at Terra? :)

I know its been retconned now but what was the original storyline?

 

Going by what little is told in this ancient Codex, the Emperor gets wounded but too late in the game, and Horus and Co. are forced to retreat to the Eye after the Imperial counterattack drives them off Terra, with Horus swearing that one day he'll return to finish the job. Russ goes in 197 years later, with much speculation as to why (ranging from searching for his bestie Jonson, who vanished into the Eye earlier, all the way to taking the fight to Horus in advance), and is never heard from again. His final transmission is, of course, written in edda format, but basically says that Russ will return at the Imperium's darkest hour when Horus re-emerges from the Eye, in sort of a Fifth Element-style "When evil returns, so shall we" thing.

glad they came to their senses and went back to the original king arthuresque story line

[MaveriK]

If you think any primarch could be "scared" then you don't know what primarchs are designed for and what their legions and they are capable of! that's all I will add, I was ready to use CAP LOCKS on you but it seems like everyone else here have educated you more so than my patience will. LOL jk

[Billuriye]

If you think any primarch could be "scared" then you don't know what primarchs are designed for and what their legions and they are capable of! that's all I will add, I was ready to use CAP LOCKS on you but it seems like everyone else here have educated you more so than my patience will. LOL jk

 

They can be scared, Horus got scared from Temba's vision and Chaos, Rogal Dorn was afraid of Curze, Lorgar's nearly every act stemmed from fear of getting expunged ,even Emperor knows fear.

[MaveriK]

If you think any primarch could be "scared" then you don't know what primarchs are designed for and what their legions and they are capable of! that's all I will add, I was ready to use CAP LOCKS on you but it seems like everyone else here have educated you more so than my patience will. LOL jk

 

They can be scared, Horus got scared from Temba's vision and Chaos, Rogal Dorn was afraid of Curze, Lorgar's nearly every act stemmed from fear of getting expunged ,even Emperor knows fear.

yes I know, and all very true! however, what I got from the OP felt and implied, that Russ was more of a chicken ;) , and a coward. Which IMHO doesn't really sit well with me, or should anyone who had their own primarch called out as chicken :tu:, in their own respected chapter/legion. And I'm not saying all this because I'm a SW player. I also like the Death Guard and Night Lords.

[Captain Idaho]

Hold on, what source states Dorn was scared of Curze? The only one I know of that mentions their interaction is the Index Astartes article Night Lords (Think it was callled Lords of the Night though I may be wrong here) which shows a very unafraid Dorn confronting Curze. He got his bottom whooped for the trouble too.

 

Whilst I admit that a Primarch can feel fear, I really don't think Dorn was scared of anyone. He was into that whole self sacrifice thing for a cause and doing the right thing no matter what.

[Razhbad]

Personally i do not think Russ was scared at all. I bet he tried to get to Terra a bunch of times, but due to the problems with the Warp he could not get close. Then he has the Alpha Legion to deal with. Once warp travel gets better i would not be surprised if Russ went all speed straight for Terra, only arriving late.

 

It mentions in the Lightning Tower about Dorn's fear.

[Khestra the Unbeheld]

Hold on, what source states Dorn was scared of Curze? The only one I know of that mentions their interaction is the Index Astartes article Night Lords (Think it was callled Lords of the Night though I may be wrong here) which shows a very unafraid Dorn confronting Curze. He got his bottom whooped for the trouble too.

 

Whilst I admit that a Primarch can feel fear, I really don't think Dorn was scared of anyone. He was into that whole self sacrifice thing for a cause and doing the right thing no matter what.

 

The Lightning Tower and The Dark King go into why Dorn was terrified of Curze and his Legion. It's not a far stretch, the man who could build fortresses not relishing the prospect of facing a foe that no fortress could defend against. Even Perturabo didn't frighten Dorn; the Night Haunter very certainly did, but to give Dorn some measure of credit, he didn't balk from his duty even in the face of that fear.

[Vixthra]

They can be scared, Horus got scared from Temba's vision and Chaos, Rogal Dorn was afraid of Curze, Lorgar's nearly every act stemmed from fear of getting expunged ,even Emperor knows fear.

 

 

Jeez, you would think that Lorgar was my boyfriend or something the way I leap to his defense at every opportunity.

 

Lorgars nearly every act was born of fear??! Not so much.

 

Lorgar thought the Emp was WRONG. That there were Gods worthy of worship in the universe. That he was going to be the martyr that brought this news to the Imperium, risking his fathers wrath and the hatred of humanity but ultimately being (in perspective ofc)RIGHT.

 

He wasn't a coward, or yellow, or <Insert Random Weasely Insult>, he was wrong.

 

No he wasn't a tactical genius like the Lion, a killer like Russ or have immense powers like Magnus. He was an orator, a firebrand and excelled at manipulation. People have different strengths and military might is not better than everything else.

 

Apologies for derailing the topic a bit but it incenses me to see Lorgar accepted as a sniveling wretch with little or no value other than patsy scapegoat. After all he did pen the works that are still studied to this day (in 40k ofc). started the path of damnation for the entire Imperium AND conquered world after world during the Great Crusade (post censure).

 

And as a slightly facetious end statement........ He's still alive :whistling:

[Razhbad]

When you say works studied in the 41st millenium i hope you dont mean the book of lorgar, as it mentions in TFH that Erebus writes a lot of that. Also technically he is not alive anymore, he is a Deamon now.

 

Like you i do not think Lorgar is a coward, after all he charged Corax with the full knowledge that his brother would easily beat him. I still do consider Lorgar rather snivelling, but then from his point of view his beliefs were crushed by the most important person to him, so it would have an effect on the guy.