Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Rather than pouring my vitriol into unsuspecting posts that happen to accidentally mention Lorgar, I thought I would make my own...... Here goes.... Why so much hate people? Sure if you don't collect Word Bearers, you're gonna love your own Primarch more, but Lorgar seems to be loathed and despised by a large proportion of people both here and players I meet at the table top. It seems though that even fellow Chaos players treat him with contempt and I'm curious as to why. Now if the argument of 'might is right RAWWRRRRRR I SMASH!!!!' is all you're gonna come up with then I respectfully request that you .....well don't bother. I understand that from a loyalist perspective, this guy started the entire chain of events that put daddy on the golden kamode so your hatred of Lorgar is not only understood but welcomed as I shall enjoy feasting on your delicious tears. But fellow Chaos players, I implore thee......STOP THE MADNESS!! Word Bearers are among one of the largest Chaos Legions around today, second only to Black Legion and maybe 3rd to the fast rising Astral Claws (time will tell people there's some imbamatic looking Red Corsairs books incoming from ADB and a lady called Sara whos surname escapes me :whistling: ), so this should placate the 'RAWR I SMASH' camp. Lorgar instigated the Heresy........c'mon people, that should be enough if you ask me! He had the foresight and planning (aided ofc) to subvert Horus via Erebus. I would be willing to stake my life on the fact that Lorgar would not send Erebus out to convert his most powerful brother to the cause without at least a little coaching. So tho it was Erebus that performed the deed, I call victory for Lorgar due to his orator skills and manipulative teachings. Erebus and Kor Phaeron working with Lorgar can't just have been a one way street as far as learning is concerned. He penned the Lectitio Divinitatus (/spit) which though filled with Imperial dogma and false worship (heehee), was the basis and cornerstone of current Imperial Faith. Now I'm reluctant to call this a victory for Lorgar given the *cough* circumstances, but still an impressive feat none the less. My personal favorite of his exploits is the utter annihilation of planets in the Empys name after the censure, RIGHT UNDER THE EMPS NOSE. "So you want speedy compliance eh?? BIZOW"......."um *cough* No they were heretics honest." All these lovely worlds getting their populations sent straight to the Eye during the Crusade itself......oh how the Gods laughed that day. Now whilst I think The First Heretic is the best book in the series so far, I also believe it's gone a long way to fuel this hatred of Lorgar. He's portrayed as a soul searcher. A thinker. A philosopher. Which it seems many people carte blanche assume is a weakness. He exclaims in the book that he doesn't want to be a fighter, he's a scholar though choice. He sends The Serrated Suns into the eye 1st which I've heard people call cowardice. Self Preservation is not cowardice. Maintaining the chain of command is not cowardice. Field Marshalls do not go out into mine fields to disarm them. Skilled but 'replaceable' people are sent to do the job (not trying to be offensive just well, accurate from a military perspective). Ok....*deep breath* ......disjointed rambling over and done with. TL;DR ; Lorgar rawks, why so much hate? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well the Sarah your thinking of is Sarah Cawkwell author of the Silver Skulls short stories and forum leader of BL replacement forums. Anywho with Lorgar i do not hate him. As a fan of the traitors i think he is cool, no where near as cool as the other traitors though. I think the biggest problem with Lorgar from my point of view is it almost seems that he was being babied by Erebus and Kor Pheron, they do most of the leg work and keep him going when he might just want to quit. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691893 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chief Librarian Vespasian Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 The simple answer as far as I'm concerned is; I have absolutely no idea! Personally I think that the Wordbearers are one of the most interesting Legions and have been one of my favourite ever since the begining. In the context of the Horus Heresy Battle for the Abyss didn't do much to engender their popularity in alot of people's eyes. They died in droves that would have the body count of Arnold Schwarzenegger's film Commando seeth with jelousy. However the book did provide a fascinating insight into the actual makeup of the Legion; that of individual Chapters with their own Livery and purpose which made up the greater Word Bearers Legion. First Heretic was superb as far as I'm concerned, and really provided a huge amount of detail about the Legion, as well as being a great story. Where the hatred comes from, I have no idea. There seems to be alot of it about at the moment and it sadly seems fashionable in some quarters to send it towards Matt Ward, or towards the Word Bearers (which I've never heard of happening before untill your post), or towards some other target that 'displeases' certain individuals. I guess alot of people must have way too much time on their hands. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Well the Sarah your thinking of is Sarah Cawkwell author of the Silver Skulls short stories and forum leader of BL replacement forums. Anywho with Lorgar i do not hate him. As a fan of the traitors i think he is cool, no where near as cool as the other traitors though. I think the biggest problem with Lorgar from my point of view is it almost seems that he was being babied by Erebus and Kor Pheron, they do most of the leg work and keep him going when he might just want to quit. Yes he's babied a bit by them...initially. They tend to guide him back to the path when he's having doubts about 'betraying everything he knows'. That's a hell of a road to go down to start with so I can understand initially he needs cajoling along. My main beef with this point is leaving them to rule in his stead as they're effectivley playing Abbadon's role with the Black Legion as Primarch. Edit: Thanks for the reminder of the authors name, I felt a bit disrespectful Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691898 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Lorgar was a tool, the puppet Primarch who's controlled by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He is no master manipulator but rather the one who is the master of being manipulated. He lacked back bone and craved something to worship, he was considered (rightly) the runt of the Primarch litter and The Emperor should have come down on him much harder. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691916 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Lorgar was a tool, the puppet Primarch who's controlled by Kor Phaeron and Erebus. He is no master manipulator but rather the one who is the master of being manipulated. He lacked back bone and craved something to worship, he was considered (rightly) the runt of the Primarch litter and The Emperor should have come down on him much harder. I laughed hard....obvious Troll is obvious but I'll bite Considered the runt of the Primarch litter? By whom? Or will you churn out some loyalist drivel about how only the weak turn to chaos? The Emperor should have come down on him harder? For what exactly? Come down harder than destroying a planet and forcing a legion onto bended knee just for being mistaken about the Emps divinity? No, I think that punishment was enough But thanks for your input....... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691921 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'm not trolling I am giving my opinion.... By a lot of the Primarchs really, that is what I got from reading the First Heretic.. Even the Night Haunter when he saves Lorgar insults him... Only the weak do join Chaos and give in to their desires. Lorgar was directly opposing The Emperors wishes and instead of destroying one world should have destroyed Lorgar and his legion. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691925 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I have to agree with Vixthra with the parts raised. Though i do not consider Lorgar the master manipulator, it not once ever states that he is the runt of the litter. In fact in most HH books the point of view the Primarchs have for Lorgar is in high regard, a lot respect him. As for the Emperor's punishment, i dont think coming down harder would be wise after all the Emperor came down on him quite hard which resulted in the Heresy if anything he should have been softer Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691930 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 If the Emperor had destroyed him ( I do believe he was close to going the way of the missing Primarchs..) then the Heresy would perhaps never of happened. You asked Why all the hate and I simply gave my opinions.. Don't ask the question if you don't like the answers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691931 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 If the Emperor had destroyed him ( I do believe he was close to going the way of the missing Primarchs..) then the Heresy would perhaps never of happened. You asked Why all the hate and I simply gave my opinions.. Don't ask the question if you don't like the answers. When it comes to the Missing Legions we so far still do not know what happened to them, there have been hints but no concrete information. Plus what reasoning did the Emperor have to kill Lorgar he worshipped the Emperor as a God and slowly conquered worlds, but that was it. He was still the most loyal son and so from the Emperors point of view all that was needed was to get rid of the God worshipping. Then the Word Bearers massively increase their crusades and do brilliant so the Emperor think it works. Nor do i think if Lorgar had died the Heresy would be adverted. Chaos would have found another way, the point was nothing could stop Chaos from bringing mankind to the edge of existance, it would have been someone else but sooner or later the Heresy would still have happened. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691934 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 To be honest it's probably to do with two things. The first of these is that the Word Bearers have always been seen as mindless fanatics outside the Black Library novels focusing on them. More prone to charging headlong at the nearest baneblade with a combat knife and praying to the chaos gods that they help him kill it than doing the sensible thing and sending traitor guard tanks to kill it. That just seems to be their trait and in comparison to the other ones they just don't seem quite so interesting. The Thousand Sons are sorcerers with probably the most interesting history in relation to the heresy as well as Rhubic Marines. The Iron Warriors skill as siege masters and their tactics of using traitor guard, enemy infantry, and they tend to create technological nightmares of war machines, not to mention their use of the Obliterator Virus. The Death Guard are walking bio weapons and have the interesting methods of attacking worlds via plague fleets. The Emperor's Children have Fabius Bile and tend to have much more, erm, interesting ways of worshipping their god than the Word Bearers, and list goes on. The second is they come across as the traitor version of the Ultramarines at times. They've got some interesting traits behind their legion and tend to have good novels written about them, but at times they also seem to pale in comparison to other legions and are no where near as great as some of their supporters seem to think they are. Lorgar being the chief example after having gotten his arse handed to him by Corax of all primarchs, failed to kill the Ultramarines even with the element of surprise on their side and the Alpha Legion supporting them, then spent several thousand years meditating when they retreated to the Eye of Terror. Hell, a lot of the time he seems to just be a puppet for Kor Phaeron and Erebus more than the legion's actual leader. Even if you attribute the entire beginnings and conspiracy of the Heresy to them, most of the credit for that goes to the Chaos Gods who spent nearly all of their power making sure the Emperor could not sense what they were doing. The fact that the whole thing was started by the Emperor acting like a freaking moron hasn't helped improve people's liking of them either. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691935 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I'll admit I was waiting for someone to mention Curze and Lorgars dialogue :P Yup he calls him out and sneers at him stating (wait wait, gonna grab TFH)........"You are the foulest weakling I have ever seen, Lorgar", and goes on to add "Go back to killing Astartes with your pretty hammer"(The First Heretic - Aaron Dembski-Bowden; BL). But consider the source..... Just because Night Haunter says ...doesn't make it so. Just because Lorgar is a thinker over a fighter doesn't in any way devalue or diminish the importance of his role in the events that HE caused to transpire. Not all fights are on the battlefield. Kurze is filled with piss and vinegar as he always is. The events that Lorgar and his Word Bearers set into motion would have been difficult to replicate through another legion or primarch due to the nature of the beast............Gods and Worship. @Calgar101; And the destruction of the legion instead of censure?? Ouch, you're a tough cookie :P I hear there's gonna be an opening for leader in Libya soon :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691939 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 The second is they come across as the traitor version of the Ultramarines at times. They've got some interesting traits behind their legion and tend to have good novels written about them, but at times they also seem to pale in comparison to other legions and are no where near as great as some of their supporters seem to think they are. Lorgar being the chief example after having gotten his arse handed to him by Corax of all primarchs, failed to kill the Ultramarines even with the element of surprise on their side and the Alpha Legion supporting them, then spent several thousand years meditating when they retreated to the Eye of Terror. Hell, a lot of the time he seems to just be a puppet for Kor Phaeron and Erebus more than the legion's actual leader. I couldn't agree more with this point. It does bug me that they're portrayed almost as the opposite Chaos version of UM. But it seems that the Corax/Lorgar/Curze encounter has cemented in peoples minds that Lorgar is some sort of snivelling wretch. Because his fighting prowess isn't on a par with Corax's?? A little short sighted imo Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691948 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I can't actually read TFH to back my argument up right now as it and the majority of my HH collection is loaned out to friends. I just got the feeling that Lorgar was never considered to be up there with the big boys of the Primarchs. Lorgar did not do an awful lot to make the Heresy come to fruition, Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the main driving forces and conspirators; Lorgar's status as a Primarch was used by them to gain access to other Legions and the resources they needed to fulfill the plans of the Chaos gods. I agree with you Vix that the Heresy would have been hard to replicate as like you said there is no other Legion who believes in religion. Perhaps total annihilation of the Word Bearers would have been a bit too far but some thing more than destroying the cities of a world and assigning 15 Custodians to his Legion was needed. Lorgar should have been made to work alongside Guilliman, especially after he strikes him down. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691955 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I couldn't agree more with this point. It does bug me that they're portrayed almost as the opposite Chaos version of UM. But it seems that the Corax/Lorgar/Curze encounter has cemented in peoples minds that Lorgar is some sort of snivelling wretch. Because his fighting prowess isn't on a par with Corax's?? A little short sighted imo It's not because of Night Haunter's words that I'm saying this, i'm sure he would have said the same thing to Mortarion, Manus, Alpharius or even Angeron if he had the nerve to try it. It's the fact that he lost to Corax, who I'm a fan of but even i'll admit isn't the best Primarch when it comes to head on fights, after Lorgar had gotten his psychic powers fully released and with his enemy having been worn down from fighting the Sons of Horus. And he still lost. It doesn't reflect well on the character when, even at his full power and potential, he ends up being utterly reamed by one of the two Primarchs who chooses to avoid open battles. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691958 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 Lorgar should have been made to work alongside Guilliman, especially after he strikes him down. Now THAT is a book I would love to read......Can you imagine the shame pouring from Lorgar every minute of every day? The tension would be palpable but still there may have been no heresy. Interwebz - 1, Imperial Logic - 0 Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691964 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ha perhaps or it would just have ended in a blood bath between the two :P With the destruction of Lorgar and the Word Bearers. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691968 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 I couldn't agree more with this point. It does bug me that they're portrayed almost as the opposite Chaos version of UM. But it seems that the Corax/Lorgar/Curze encounter has cemented in peoples minds that Lorgar is some sort of snivelling wretch. Because his fighting prowess isn't on a par with Corax's?? A little short sighted imo It's not because of Night Haunter's words that I'm saying this, i'm sure he would have said the same thing to Mortarion, Manus, Alpharius or even Angeron if he had the nerve to try it. It's the fact that he lost to Corax, who I'm a fan of but even i'll admit isn't the best Primarch when it comes to head on fights, after Lorgar had gotten his psychic powers fully released and with his enemy having been worn down from fighting the Sons of Horus. And he still lost. It doesn't reflect well on the character when, even at his full power and potential, he ends up being utterly reamed by one of the two Primarchs who chooses to avoid open battles. Ok whilst I totally get what you're saying, you're missing my point in the original post mate.......combat prowess is not the be all and end all of a Primarchs worth. There's an entire Clade of assassins that rarely leave their offices, yet they're still effective and ruthless and efficient at what they do :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691969 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 With the Primarchs though they are not supposed to be Philosophers, Artisans etc they were created to be the best warriors and generals that had and would ever exist.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Lorgar does make me think of Guilleman at times. After all both Primarchs weren't really fighters they were more in the mind then in the body. Both brought countless worlds into the Imperium they had the largest Legions and they were both great Statesmen. The difference was Guilleman was blind to the Galaxy and Lorgar was not, but perhaps Guilleman was better off in his ignorance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 I would not call Guilliman ignorant per say but more attuned to the Imperial Truth and dogma laid down by the Emperor, he was said to embody the Imperial ideal very staunchly (as well as Dorn) and well listened to the Emperor more. Edit- I don't really see how Lorgar and Guilliman can be likened bar both having the largest of legions.. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691980 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Codicier Lucion Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 Ok whilst I totally get what you're saying, you're missing my point in the original post mate.......combat prowess is not the be all and end all of a Primarchs worth. There's an entire Clade of assassins that rarely leave their offices, yet they're still effective and ruthless and efficient at what they do :P I did get that point but it does still stand. It was Lorgar's one big fight in the entire book and he managed to get utterly trounced in it. I still do understand that he wasn't a combatant or general by his own admission, but he was (supposedly) orchestrating a military uprising against the Emperor at the same time. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691982 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 But the Imperial Truth was a lie, there were Gods out there. Magic, Deamons etc were not just words. Guilleman is ignorant all of the Primarchs were for a long time, now they were ignorant for a reason. The Emperor of Mankind told the lies he did for a damn good reason, because he simply could not say "Ok there are gods, magic is real and Deamons do exist, but whatever you do you must not seek these things out and whatever they tell you is a lie". Because if he did millions would go flooding off looking into it, human's own rebellious/curious nature would force us to. Its easier for the Emperor to just say they dont exist. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691989 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vixthra Posted March 17, 2011 Author Share Posted March 17, 2011 @Calgar101 Whilst I agree that Lorgar wasn't created to be a philosopher the very nature of the religious tends towards introspection and soul searching. Raised on Colchis and utterly in awe of daddy, he is what he is....a scholar in charge of a legion. He laments this to Magnus iirc in TFH and whilst I may agree that he wasn't bred to be a thinker but a warrior, his track record was pretty darn high for bringing worlds into the Imperial fold (even pre-censure though he was slow he was thorough). So I'd say that makes him even stronger as a person as he's defying his very nature to excel. @Razhabd Yeah the similarities are there I agree. Loved by their people and believe in what they do. Urrrgh did I just agree to a Lorgar/Guilliman comparison *grabs scrubbing brush* Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted March 17, 2011 Share Posted March 17, 2011 This would soon turn into a endless nature v nurture debate.... His track record was okay but he was too darn slow and instilling the wrong belief into each and ever world he visited. No matter which way we look at him in the eyes of the Emperor and some other Primarchs (Guulliman automatically comes to mind) he was a failure. Even when regards him with contempt when he hands him the weapons he made him (but that is probably Ferrus being Ferrus :)). Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/225001-bite-the-hand-that-feeds-you/#findComment-2691997 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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