Bite the hand that feeds you

[Vixthra]

I did get that point but it does still stand. It was Lorgar's one big fight in the entire book and he managed to get utterly trounced in it. I still do understand that he wasn't a combatant or general by his own admission, but he was (supposedly) orchestrating a military uprising against the Emperor at the same time.

 

I like the analogy of the entire book being Lorgars big fight. You're right. But I'd appreciate clarification from your perspective as to how he was trounced throughout? :)

 

I disagree however that he was orchestrating a military coup. That was being left to the people that knew war like Horus whilst Lorgar and his Word Bearers wanted only to stop the Imperial lie and 'save' humanity.

 

They were part of the coup because they fought for what they believed in but I think orchestrating the details would be left to the Warmaster himself.

 

I may claim that Lorgar started the heresy but I've never stated that he planned the nitty gritty :P

[calgar101]

Lorgar did not really plan much, he was just a vessel and tool for others. However Lorgar, Erebus and Kor Phaeron were the ones who were to orchestrate a religious rebellion whilst the Warmaster was planning a military coup.. It is interesting though that Horus at first did not intend to even fight the Emperor believing he could sway him but as they say the road to hell is paved with good intentions :)

[Vixthra]

Stop using the words Lorgar and Tool in the same sentence :) It both offends me AND makes me laugh and I can't cope with such conflicting emotions haha

[Razhbad]

Is Horus the only one planning a military coup though perhaps not i defer to Age of Darkness on those who have read it.

 

Now Lorgar may not be the masterful one of everything, but he did indeed help a lot in the entire process. Its just that Lorgar had doubts about it all. Lorgar is not your typical Chaos Monster, he is a man who really cares about humanity and wants to awaken them to the truth of everything, its just that things did not go how he wanted and nor did he fully understand the Gods he was now worshipping.

[calgar101]

Lorgar is a tool though :) He is the screw driver or perhaps hammer of the Chaos gods... To be honest I can in ways empathise with Lorgar, all he sought was answers but damned the Imperium in the process. If he was brought up by the Emperor his philosophical ways would have been harnessed in a much more positive (for the Imperium at least) way. Remember though I'm an ardent Imperial fan so all the traitor Primarchs are weak fools who deserved to die :P

[Aegnor]

First - I'll say in my time I've played loyalist and chaos and while these days I prefer loyalist, I don't hate either side as the OP does, and my view isn't swayed by "Imperial propaganda".

 

I don't like Lorgar or the Word Bearers. Never have. Of their appearances in the HH, I've read TFH, Battle for the Abyss, and Nemesis. Each of them made me dislike them more and more - what is there to like about cruel, genocidal religious extremists. TFH was definitely fascinating and made them much more interesting, but still loathsome in my personal opinion.

 

My problem with them is that I have a generalized dislike of people who use religious faith as a crutch in order to avoid dealing with their fears and as a substitute for intelligent thought. I should hasten to add that I don't think all religious people fall in these categories by any stretch of the imagination, but the Word Bearers and Lorgar sure do.

 

Lorgar being a sulk who at first threw his talents into an utterly wrong-headed passion, and then decided the only response to finding out he was wrong was to try to take his entire species with him in suicide, AND on top of that he's relatively mediocre as a warrior, AND who gets manipulated like a child by those around him, and you have a character I find it hard to warm to.

 

In contrast I quite like some of the other Chaos legions like the Black Legion, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, even if I much prefer the loyalist side these days.

[Vixthra]

I don't hate either side as the OP does.

 

Whoa steady there soldier, I don't hate anyone / anything (apart from these last few days of quitting smoking). Even reread the whole post just to make sure I don't come across as hate fuelled, I made a couple of jokes involving the feasting upon loyalist tears but ......you get hate from that?

 

I don't like Lorgar or the Word Bearers. Never have. Of their appearances in the HH, I've read TFH, Battle for the Abyss, and Nemesis. Each of them made me dislike them more and more - what is there to like about cruel, genocidal religious extremists. TFH was definitely fascinating and made them much more interesting, but still loathsome in my personal opinion.

 

In contrast I quite like some of the other Chaos legions like the Black Legion, Night Lords, and Alpha Legion, even if I much prefer the loyalist side these days.

 

You say what is there to like about cruel, genocidal religious extremists yet go on to say that you like the BL, NL and AL.....who are ofc lovely kitten herders?

 

I'm not trying to call you out here but it seems to me that from this extract and from the bulk of your post, your problem here is one word then......religious? Because the other legions you've mentioned are equally cruel and genocidal......in fact more so in some respects.

 

Lorgar being a sulk who at first threw his talents into an utterly wrong-headed passion, and then decided the only response to finding out he was wrong was to try to take his entire species with him in suicide, AND on top of that he's relatively mediocre as a warrior, AND who gets manipulated like a child by those around him, and you have a character I find it hard to warm to.

 

Gonna have to refute this absolutely and point out that this to me is why there's so much Lorgar hate. Whilst I agree that on the surface of his actions, yeah it's incredibly tough to warm to Lorgar, but TFH allows the scratching of surfaces we could only speculate upon previously. You say his only response to being wrong was to 'try to take his entire species with him in suicide', and to this I say......please go re-read The First Heretic.....that's not how it was at all.........at ALL.

 

Yes he's a mediocre warrior.....in fact no, in comparison to ANY other Primarch I'd imagine it'd be like a fight between child and a heavyweight boxer, but combatprowessisn'tEVERYTHING. And yes he was manipulated...a lot......but one of the main tenets of religious belief is.....well, Faith. So he's weak because he trusts people that have been around him for years, have given him valuable council over the years and seem to have the same goals as him?

 

Still it's another PoV I guess even if I disagree with the lions share :P

[Aegnor]

Lol, fair enough on the question of hating different sides - i misread your comments as more serious. I never said I think "combat prowess is everything". I listed several other things I disliked about him and then said "AND he's a relatively mediocre warrior".

 

You're quite right I that my problem with them is their brand of religious motivation. You're qute right that all of the Chaos legions are monsters. Nevertheless, I find some of their motivations more objectionable than the others. I won't pretend it's anything other than a personal opinion bit you asked why lots of us don't like Lorgar and I'm giving you my reasons.

 

I don't need to re-read TFH. Obviously ADB can tell me I've completely misread his book, but otherwise that how I read the decisions Lorgar made, even he didn't admit it to himself.

[Vixthra]

I know I asked for opinions and I'm getting exactly what I wanted <_<

 

But if I disagree with your reasons, I'm going to attempt to refute them in defense of my Primarch (still not being too serious :o). And I still say you got TFH wrong if you think Lorgar was on some self destruct mission and wanted to bring humanity with him. Quite the exact opposite in fact.

 

So disregarding mightmakesright validation, we have one reason Lorgar is loathed......Religion.

 

To clarify before I get flamed by zealots, I say he's loathed for his religious leanings that cause him to absolve himself of his actions as he's performing a higher duty perhaps?

 

If this is what you mean then this is a reason I can understand and unfortunately for me, can't refute either.

 

Any more?

 

Edit: Clarity

[calgar101]

I wish that Russ had confronted and slaughtered him on Istvaan and we wouldn't have to have this <_<

[Razhbad]

That would have had to involve Russ going to Istvaan lol

[Vixthra]

I wish that Russ had confronted and slaughtered him on Istvaan and we wouldn't have to have this <_<

 

 

You're just trying to bait me now aren't you Calgar101 :o

[calgar101]

Not really <_< Just love the idea of the scene from TFH but replacing Corax with Russ and having both Lorgar and Curze die.

[Legatus]

So disregarding mightmakesright validation, we have one reason Lorgar is loathed......Religion.

And I think that is basically it. I can think a few reasons for why Lorgar is not particularly popular, but they mostly have to do with religiosity.

 

1. Lorgar's main, and perhaps only, characteristic is very strong faith. But based on how he turned, it is faith simply for the sake of being faithfull, and not necessarily faith in a particularly worthy cause. There are parrallels to our own religious fundamentalists today, and it is not a very likeable characteristic.

 

2. Lorgar had a lame reason to turn. The Emperor told him that his doctrines were wrong and not what the Emperor expected of him. But instead of admitting that he was wrong and working to improve himself, Lorgar instead finds a new cause to worship. "The First Heretic" might have clarified his motivations somewhat, but not everyone may have read that.

 

3. Lorgar is not competent at anything. It does not matter if he is not as strong a fighter or commander as the other Primarchs, as long as he has his own niche where he is very profficient. But about the only think Lorgar was very good at was preaching, winning others and rallying them up for his cause. And that is not necessarily a very cool trait (see point 1). Again, there are parallels to our own today's evangelists.

 

You see them on TV, spouting nonsense, all while collecting loads of money from the gullible sheeple. And it makes you angry. And justifiably so. And that's basically Lorgar.

 

At least I think these are the major reasons.

[Razhbad]

Hmm i am not certain that Russ could beat Curze as fluff says that Russ is the equal of the Lion in a fight. (Spolier - Age of Darkness),

and Curze does manage to just beat the Lion.

[calgar101]

I've not read Age of Darkness. The fight between the Lion and the Wolf was a brotherly spat really not a full on fight like between the Wolf King and Magnus.. I think Russ would have ripped Lorgars head off and then looked at Curze to say "You next..". To me only Sanguinius out of the Primarchs could beat Russ and even then it would be close...

[Razhbad]

When it comes to Russ i have already stated in another thread about his fighting prowess and how it is implied that the best Primarch fighters are Horus, Angron and Sanguinius with my sources being stated on that thread as well. Now with Russ fighting the Lion it no where states that it is a brotherly little spat in fact the sources we do have say quite the opposite that they both really went at each other. Russ certainly could beat Lorgar there is no doubt in my mind with that i find it hard to believe Lorgar could beat any primarch in a fight. Yet from reading Age of Darkness and other stuff on Russ my guess would put Russ the equal of Konrad Curze and the Lion. Of course we will never know as Russ only battled Magnus in the HH.

[Vixthra]

So disregarding mightmakesright validation, we have one reason Lorgar is loathed......Religion.

And I think that is basically it. I can think a few reasons for why Lorgar is not particularly popular, but they mostly have to do with religiosity.

 

Interesting points, gonna attempt devils advocate (Lorgars Advocate doesn't sound right).

 

1. Lorgar's main, and perhaps only, characteristic is very strong faith. But based on how he turned, it is faith simply for the sake of being faithfull, and not necessarily faith in a particularly worthy cause. There are parrallels to our own religious fundamentalists today, and it is not a very likeable characteristic.

 

The Word Bearers in TFH

were shown that the Imperial Truth was in itself a lie by Ingethel and that they would suffer the same fate as the Eldar if human compliance wasn't forthwith.

This would make the reasoning for his turn a little more palatable wouldn't you think? If you had discovered that there were actually gods that required worship, nay, not only required, DEMANDED said worship. That not only could you have your cake and eat it but you were also the saviour of your species. I say this ofc from the perspective of the duped but it would seem like a very worthy cause and a small price to pay. ;)

 

2. Lorgar had a lame reason to turn. The Emperor told him that his doctrines were wrong and not what the Emperor expected of him. But instead of admitting that he was wrong and working to improve himself, Lorgar instead finds a new cause to worship. "The First Heretic" might have clarified his motivations somewhat, but not everyone may have read that.

 

I'll refer to the response in point one.

 

3. Lorgar is not competent at anything. It does not matter if he is not as strong a fighter or commander as the other Primarchs, as long as he has his own niche where he is very profficient. But about the only think Lorgar was very good at was preaching, winning others and rallying them up for his cause. And that is not necessarily a very cool trait (see point 1). Again, there are parallels to our own today's evangelists.

 

I'm afraid you've contradicted yourself a little here by saying that Lorgar isn't competent at anything, yet can rouse the sheeple, win them over..and rally them to his cause. Entire wars have been averted by such oratory skills....Gandi springs to mind (lol though I'm now laughing at my audacity to compare Lorgar to Gandi).

[Ubermensch Commander]

So disregarding mightmakesright validation, we have one reason Lorgar is loathed......Religion.

And I think that is basically it. I can think a few reasons for why Lorgar is not particularly popular, but they mostly have to do with religiosity.

 

1. Lorgar's main, and perhaps only, characteristic is very strong faith. But based on how he turned, it is faith simply for the sake of being faithfull, and not necessarily faith in a particularly worthy cause. There are parrallels to our own religious fundamentalists today, and it is not a very likeable characteristic.

 

2. Lorgar had a lame reason to turn. The Emperor told him that his doctrines were wrong and not what the Emperor expected of him. But instead of admitting that he was wrong and working to improve himself, Lorgar instead finds a new cause to worship. "The First Heretic" might have clarified his motivations somewhat, but not everyone may have read that.

 

3. Lorgar is not competent at anything. It does not matter if he is not as strong a fighter or commander as the other Primarchs, as long as he has his own niche where he is very profficient. But about the only think Lorgar was very good at was preaching, winning others and rallying them up for his cause. And that is not necessarily a very cool trait (see point 1). Again, there are parallels to our own today's evangelists.

 

You see them on TV, spouting nonsense, all while collecting loads of money from the gullible sheeple. And it makes you angry. And justifiably so. And that's basically Lorgar.

 

At least I think these are the major reasons.

 

Very well put Legatus.

 

Point 2 is particularly galling. Lorgar, being well read as he was, must have known the Emperor's stance on religion. He smashed the churches on Earth and in the Big E's name Lorgar and the other legions also destroyed churches. Then there are the functionaries attached to the fleets spreading the Imperium's secular truth. Finally, the Emperor himself personally denied his divinity and even said so to Lorgar, elder godling to younger godling.

And STILL Lorgar feels "betrayed." Because he willfully and blindly ignored all the evidence before him.

To quote the Horus Heresy artbook

 

It makes his actions seem like a giant temper tantrum in a lot of ways, or so it seems to me.

 

His "faith" does not excuse betrayal of his oaths of loyalty, murder of his brother's legions, betrayal and murder of his OWN children and then following such horrible entities (after claiming "bad" gods do not deserve worship in First Heretic-paraphrasing) at the cusp of mankind's dominion of the galaxy.

So he is not only hypocritical, his stupidity and blindness is again revealed when he thinks the BEING REEKING OF DAMNATION and causing people to vomit upon seeing it will someone "save" his species. Even the first possessed Marine warns him "He boss, this is bad news."

 

One might decry the Imperial Truth as a lie...but Chaos is made of Falsehood. Hell, Lorgar KNOWS that Kor Phaeron lied to him and used him, and yet keeps on believing like the ignorant little fool he is.

 

Besides, Lorgar's definition of a "god is lacking. In TFH he only says the Emperor is a God due to his immense power. As the Emperor points out, he is no god, merely a powerful human. It is a matter of perception and naming. We control the lives of fish in a pound, we create their worlds, we feed and can at any time end their lives. Yet we are not gods.

 

Well Necrons and Eldar can walk through walls, read the skeins of the future, live effectively forever, and quash stars themselves. Maybe he should get on his knees and worship them. After all, they seem like gods.

 

In addition, Lorgar comes across as a bit of a fool in many sources. His blind faith and its inherent stupidity aside, the Golden One was goaded and manipulated by Erebus and Kor Phaeron where in other books, such as Nemesis and the Artbooks, we have the likes of Horus telling them to step off and stop their attempts to direct him.

 

In short: Willfully Blind, easily led, hypocritical, with his claims at being a "philosopher" fails as he does not appropriately examine his life, reality or seek knowledge (Socrates or Da Buddha would be disgusted with this guy), there is every reason in the world to sneer at this guy.

[Vixthra]

First off I gotta say, thanks to the posters that have taken the time to engage me in this (for me at least) interesting subject with some insightful and thought provoking responses.

 

Point 2 is particularly galling. Lorgar, being well read as he was, must have known the Emperor's stance on religion. He smashed the churches on Earth and in the Big E's name Lorgar and the other legions also destroyed churches. Then there are the functionaries attached to the fleets spreading the Imperium's secular truth. Finally, the Emperor himself personally denied his divinity and even said so to Lorgar, elder godling to younger godling.

And STILL Lorgar feels "betrayed." Because he willfully and blindly ignored all the evidence before him.

 

No. Sorry but no. What evidence are you saying that Lorgar ignored? The Emps divinity? Or the evidence that gods don't exist? Because Lorgar quickly refutes the Empys divinity when he discovers evidence that gods do actually exist.

 

Is it such a leap of thought to accept that if Lorgar can see that Empy isn't infallible, that his Imperial truth was a lie (by this I'm mainly referring to the denial of divine beings). that maybe it falls to him, Lorgar, to save his species because actually daddy is wrong! :D

 

So he is not only hypocritical, his stupidity and blindness is again revealed when he thinks the BEING REEKING OF DAMNATION and causing people to vomit upon seeing it will someone "save" his species. Even the first possessed Marine warns him "He boss, this is bad news."

 

This is a tough point to argue against but I shall try ^^. Just because you don't fully understand something doesn't make it wrong. In your context, 'reeking of damnation' could just as easily be seen as 'enlightened' once you fully understand the situation.

Ingethels 'ascendancy' to demonhood, for me, was a demonstration of the symbiosis that the big 4 were trying to present to Lorgar

aaargh trying really hard to think of a real world comparison where you could misinterpret actions or appearance without prior knowledge of the reasons why but it escapes me.....might actually have to concede that point haha.

 

Without delving too far into the realms of theology......

 

Besides, Lorgar's definition of a "god is lacking. In TFH he only says the Emperor is a God due to his immense power. As the Emperor points out, he is no god, merely a powerful human. It is a matter of perception and naming. We control the lives of fish in a pound, we create their worlds, we feed and can at any time end their lives. Yet we are not gods.

 

You say 'Yet we are not gods' and to that I say 'We are to them'. That's all about perspective and place in the pecking order really.

 

In short: Willfully Blind, easily led, hypocritical, with his claims at being a "philosopher" fails as he does not appropriately examine his life, reality or seek knowledge (Socrates or Da Buddha would be disgusted with this guy), there is every reason in the world to sneer at this guy.

 

Again, perspective. As someone in real life with zero religious convictions I'm always fascinated by the codes of conduct that people with faith impose upon themselves. What you call willfully blind, some would call rich in faith. What you call easily led, some would call pious. What you call hypocritical, some would call religious ;)

[Legatus]

No. Sorry but no. What evidence are you saying that Lorgar ignored? The Emps divinity? Or the evidence that gods don't exist? Because Lorgar quickly refutes the Empys divinity when he discovers evidence that gods do actually exist.

Gods do actually exist in the 40K universe, but that does not mean they have to be worshipped. In fact, there are many more gods than just the Chaos gods, and what those gods would expect from their followers is often contradictory. So it makes no sense to worship a deity simply because it does exist. In a uiverse with so many differnet deities, representing different things, worshipping one of them means to identify with what they represent.

 

Lorgar started to worship the Chaos gods because they were there, and because they were welcoming his worship.

[Vixthra]

Gods do actually exist in the 40K universe, but that does not mean they have to be worshipped. In fact, there are many more gods than just the Chaos gods, and what those gods would expect from their followers is often contradictory. So it makes no sense to worship a deity simply because it does exist. In a uiverse with so many differnet deities, representing different things, worshipping one of them means to identify with what they represent.

 

Sure, I'll buy that. Just because a god exists doesn't mean you have to worship it. And if Lorgar had been given The Who's Who Big Book of Gods he would most likely have made a more informed decision.

 

But as things stand, he went from losing a god, having no personal purpose in life (word is italicized for a reason) to finding a pantheon of gods that welcomed his raison d'etre. All this in a universe supposedly devoid of the one thing he craves the most. And they proved daddy to be a liar. This liar just chastised you for doing the very thing you've just discovered was correct!! (worship of the divine not the emp specifically). AND said gods tell you 'Phew, you just got here in the nick of time mate, we were gonna end up destroying you all'.

 

"Ah yeah, hats off to the Lorgmeister", said the vindicated Primarch.

 

Lorgar started to worship the Chaos gods because they were there, and because they were welcoming his worship.

 

Not 'just because they were there', because they were the ONLY ones there (as far as he's aware, and due to the back order delays on the BIG BOOK OF GODS :D )

[calgar101]

So Lorgar is a god bandwagoner? Wonder if he'll move on to the C'Tan or Ork gods next? :D

[Vixthra]

Calgar I swear your just trying to goad me into a frothing rage so I start spouting RAWR CHAOS IS TEH BESTEST diatribes haha

[calgar101]

Naah to tired for that, it just seems though that Lorgar worships for the sake of worshiping. Preach to him a religion, show him its gods and BANG he's yours...