Bite the hand that feeds you

[Legatus]

I am sure "The First Heretic" explains Lorgar's fall much better than the Codices and White Dwarf articles previously had. But not everyone will read that book, or will even care for a more indepths explanation. The way he is usually described as quickly switching allegiances because being reprimanded by the Emperor and then discovering the chaos gods just does not make him look like a great guy.

[Vixthra]

I am sure "The First Heretic" explains Lorgar's fall much better than the Codices and White Dwarf articles previously had. But not everyone will read that book, or will even care for a more indepths explanation. The way he is usually described as quickly switching allegiances because being reprimanded by the Emperor and then discovering the chaos gods just does not make him look like a great guy.

 

 

This is true, and a real shame in my opinion because love him or hate him there's a lot of depth to his character and simplifying him as a flip flop, sulky, god bothering, patsy, scapegoat really gets on my nerves.

[Captain Tezdal]

I've not read Age of Darkness. The fight between the Lion and the Wolf was a brotherly spat really not a full on fight like between the Wolf King and Magnus.. I think Russ would have ripped Lorgars head off and then looked at Curze to say "You next..". To me only Sanguinius out of the Primarchs could beat Russ and even then it would be close...

 

You forget, Angron was there too....and I'm sure he would love to take a thwack at Leman, and since he is only matched by Sangy and Horus...

 

Anyway, I like Lorgar's character, and the Word Bearers in general, but there has been some bad representations of them (BFtA, those Blood Angels novels) that make them look like real dunces.

[Lexington]

Lorgar was a tool, the puppet Primarch who's controlled by Kor Phaeron and Erebus.

I have this objection to the depiction of Lorgar as well, even as someone who's been playing the Word Bearers since well before the names 'Kor Phaeron' and 'Erebus' were put to the page. It's part of a general complaint about all of the Legion stories from the IA and post-IA era, though - there's an almost systematic removal of responsibility of the Primarchs' for their own fall. Instead, you've got moustache-twirling manipulators (Typhus, Kor Phaeron/Erebus), "the demon(sword) made 'em do it!" excuses (Horus, Fulgrim), and the occasional self-pitying mental patient (Kurzy-McKurzos!). This isn't to say the Primarchs shouldn't have their reasons for rebellion, but it'd be nice if more of them made their own decisions, rather than having history thrust upon them by external forces. Taking their agency out of what is one of the most important decisions of their lives diminishes the Primarchs, in my eyes, and robs the whole Heresy of a lot of its mythic power. Kind of a bad thing when we're talking about the Origin Myth of the Imperium.

 

That said, I thought A D-B did some pristine work in making Lorgar less of a dupe in The First Heretic, and I'm still sort of suspicious of his supposed "weakness" on Istavaan - he's a very different man from the one we see during the aftermath of Tal and company's voyage into the Eye. Like he's putting on an act, starting a galactic civil war without getting his hands dirty. Could just be a misinterpretation on my part, tho. I'm happy to wait for more A D-B-penned Word Bearers novels to find out. :D

[Billuriye]

Naah to tired for that, it just seems though that Lorgar worships for the sake of worshiping. Preach to him a religion, show him its gods and BANG he's yours...

 

He's a weakling of a Primarch. It was especially pathetic when he struck Guilliman for his supposed haughtiness.

[calgar101]

He looked even more stupid when Guilliman got up and mocked him :D

[Aegnor]

No. Sorry but no. What evidence are you saying that Lorgar ignored? The Emps divinity? Or the evidence that gods don't exist? Because Lorgar quickly refutes the Empys divinity when he discovers evidence that gods do actually exist.

Gods do actually exist in the 40K universe, but that does not mean they have to be worshipped. In fact, there are many more gods than just the Chaos gods, and what those gods would expect from their followers is often contradictory. So it makes no sense to worship a deity simply because it does exist. In a uiverse with so many differnet deities, representing different things, worshipping one of them means to identify with what they represent.

 

Lorgar started to worship the Chaos gods because they were there, and because they were welcoming his worship.

 

Legatus has done a very nice job of explaining further my reasons for disliking Lorgar, but I will take issue with part of this post because it ties into part of my reasons for hating Lorgar's brand of religiosity. By what measure are either the Emperor or the Chaos "gods" actually gods? As opposed to "merely" a super powerful psyker or daemons? I'm not religious in my personal life, but particularly the Chaos gods don't seem to fulfill any of the criteria that would make them deserving of worship. They are not creative forces that hold our origins. They aren't possessed of a superior understanding of morality or what is right and just. They don't offer any kind of redemption or hope for a better life.

 

The only criteria by which they could be considered gods is their immense might and ability to punish/reward those who please/offend them. That is no criteria for divinity in my books - by such measures any rich man or person with a gun could also be considered a god deserving of worship. In 40k-verse, as someone already said, if you're going to worship the chaos gods, you might as well worship the Eldar or Necrons.

 

The only other in-universe reason to consider them gods is because they appeal to common superstitions and gullibility regarding their claims of superiority/divinity. That Lorgar, a supposed genius philosopher who has devoted his life to the study of religion is capable of such moral idiocy rankles. In fact, I can't believe he entirely did believe it. Hence my view that it was essentially a form of elaborate suicide to avoid confronting his fears and problems - one where he tried to soften the blow by taking those around him with him.

 

You say you want a reason beyond "might is right" to dislike Lorgar. Ironically, it's his inability to see beyond the idea that someone who is stronger than you is "right" that is his most unlikeable trait.

[Paradill]

I think that there's a lot of confusion and misunderstanding about this. Lorgar is very, very 'human' he is relatable and different that the other primarchs because he doesn't want to be a warlord or soldier. The reason he accepts chaos and it's gods into his belief and worship is because it is the truth, a terrible, horrible truth, but a truth non the less.

He has been chastised for everything he believes and everything he is by his father, his god. Who can say how you would react? If you did everything you thought your dad wanted of you, you made everything in his image because he is the strongest, cleverest dad in the world , he is the best and he is always right, he is your hero. Then one day, your dad comes along, kicks over all your work and tells you to do better and that you're wrong. For most of us, this is the teenage years, for a being as powerful as Lorgar, it is the purging of everything in search of the truth.

 

I think that if, at any point before Argel Tal told Lorgar what was in the eye, the Emperor had given him a hug and told him everythig was ok, Lorgar would have been the perfect son. The argument that he is 'weak' is not true, he is much more complex than the other primarchs in that he questions the meaning of his existence and denies it in lieu of the path he chooses. All the other Primarchs are warriors because they are born like that and they don't question it.

 

If Lorgar was weak, he would not be able to start a galaxy spanning civil war and would certainly not be given the treatment he is by the pantheon. What some perceive as weakness is actually Lorgar transcending the limits of Primarch-hood and becoming that which non of his brothers have achieved; human.

 

Paradill

[Razhbad]

I think Paradill has made the best point on Lorgar so far. For Lorgar the most important thing to him was the Emperor, his worship of his father. The Emperor was so powerful he was virtually a god and his son worshipped him as such. In fact this very son purged his own world, brought many others into compliance for 200 Years he did all this constantly. Why because it was his duty to his father and he did it with a smile because his father reprensented the truth. Then he had his brother turn up and butcher a loyal world, he had his brother look down upon him for it and then when his father turns up he just mentions how wrong his son is and how disappointed he is in him.

 

Now many people react badly when they lose faith, others react badly if a parent tells them they are disappointed with them. Now Lorgar had this happen all in one go, then he had to realize that during this time he had wiped out perhaps Billions of people all for a lie. Can you imagine the weight on someones shoulders. Lorgar was not like Russ and Guilleman who had no qualms in wiping out civilisations. Lorgar wanted to do it for the right reasons and he felt that it had all been wrong.

 

Then he finds actual Gods who inform him that sooner or later Chaos will wipe out mankind. They are right of course, now Lorgar does not realise he is the missing piece for that plan. Just like when Alpharius is shown the future and when Horus is told of how the future would be. They were told of an era of endless war (the 41st Millenium), now Chaos deceived them all because it was their actions that led to this.

 

No matter how you look of it there was no truth in the Imperial Truth. Gods do exist, the problem was the only wanted loyalty or death, plain and simple. But then are they any different then the Emperor of Mankind, who initially fully sanctioned Konrad and Angron, who only attempted to stop his sons, when others complained.

 

I feel that Lorgar was led a great deal of the way by Kor Pheron and Erebus, but that was because he had doubts, not really in the Gods, more in the motives. Lorgar once more did not want to be that mindless pawn who butchered in the name of someone who did not trust his followers with the truth. Lorgar wanted mankind to be educated in a new glory. Of course Lorgar's biggest follow is he did not understand Chaos, it is the same mistake the Emperor made. Because only if they understood the 4 Gods would they be able to defeat them, it was mankinds destiny to bring the civil war, for the 4 gods are part of our very nature and to deny them is to deny yourself.

[Aegnor]

@ Paradil - You're entitled to your view, but all of that is just a bunch of rationalization to me. Bad things happen to everyone. We are all disappointed at different times by those we love, even if it's just the inevitable realization that your parents are fallible human beings like everyone else. How you deal with that is one of the real measures of your character. Lorgar had some challenging issues, but he also has immense gifts and capabilities - indeed he should have been one of the best equipped to see the chaos daemons for what they were.

[Paradill]

That is exactly what I mean when I say people misunderstand him. If it was Guilliman or Horus or Vulkan, or indeed any other Primarch, yes you would expect them to say "AAAARGGGGHHHH WARP BEAST! ME SMASH!" With Lorgar, you have a man looking for rationalisation for a lifetime of bloodshed only to find that he has been wrong all the time. He tries to make amends for his wrong doings by setting the whole of humanity free with the 'truth' of chaos, but due to Kor Phaeron and Erebus, is simply led to more bloodshed in a different name.

He is flawed in ways only humans can be, his Primarch brothers see this as weakness when actually his faith and conviction in setting things right is a strength non of them are capable of.

Take Horus, torn by personal conflict, yes, but never once does he consider an alternative that is not for HIS best interests. He feels inferior to Sanguinius and undeserving of his title but still only acts in HIS best interests. The lack of humanity in the Primarchs removes them from what Lorgar is, a faulted, broken man desperately trying to make amends and find the truth of it all. In his character, he is strongest of all the Primarchs. It is his brother's monstrous natures that make them strong as warriors, it is Lorgars' human heart(s) that makes him the stronger man.

 

Paradill

[Candleshoes]

TL;DR ; Lorgar rawks, why so much hate?

 

What is wrong with Lorgar? Ferrus Manus sums it up on page 436-437 of Aaron Dembski-Bowdens' The First Heretic.

 

"Ferrus had cast a glance over his dark skinned shoulder and watched his fey brother for a moment, not returning the smile. 'One wonders if you are capable of creating anything worthwhile at all.'"

[calgar101]

I fail to see how Lorgar has a strong character at all.. He is told what he is doing is wrong and is told to stop. Everybody at some point in their life is told to stop doing something or is shown to be wrong and yet the vast majority do not cause a galaxy spanning civil war...

[Razhbad]

The difference is when most of us find out we are wrong we have not devoted our entire existance and life to that cause.

 

It seems that the hatred of Lorgar focuses on the fact that out of all the Primarch's Lorgar is the most human like, so is the hatred really against Lorgar or against the species in general?????

[Paradill]

No, you're right, but that's because we don't span the galaxy yet. There are plenty of wars caused through and because of differences in faith. Lorgars' beliefs are set, he is a deeply spiritual person and hasn't just been told that he has done something wrong, he has been told his very existence is wrong, his beliefs, actions, even his love is wrong.

 

That's more than being told to stop doing something. Surely the very fact he started a galaxy spanning civil war is testament to his strengths, not his weaknesses. I never said he was right or good, he is a flawed, emotionally governed human being. The fact that he is a Primarch as well means his flaws have massive consequences for everything around him and his desire and conviction to spread the truth he has discovered means he wont rest until his perceived wrongs have been purified through that truth.

 

It feels dirty defending Lorgar, I'm a loyalist, but seeing such a complex and relatable character declared 'weak' for no real reason other than his not wanting to become a murderer rankles a bit.

 

As we are all a fairly eloquent and reasoned lot, I will add that there are grey areas here, where both sides have points, but that to decry him as nothing without attempting to understand him is a tad bit silly. Also the debate could continue eternally, so I will leave it at that. Those are my views on the matter, nothing more.

 

Paradill

[calgar101]

Well to be fair he did not actually plan much of the Heresy, Erebus and Kor Phaeron did. From the get go the Emperor denied his divinity and told Lorgar what he was doing was wrong but Lorgar ignored him and that is why things came to a head on Monarchia(is that the right name or am I pulling that from no where?).

 

Edit- Lorgars need for religion is what makes him weak in my eyes.

[Legatus]

Aegnor:

 

By what measure are either the Emperor or the Chaos "gods" actually gods?

I guess by the same measure that makes the gods of the ancient pantheons (greek, roman, nordic) or the gods in RPG universes "gods". They are not necessarily the creators of all things, but they may take care of you in the after life (which Chaos gods to), represent a certain aspect of life, like war, fertility, desire and other such values (which the Chaos gods do), and may bestow powers upon their followers if they are devoted enough (which the Chaos gods do).

 

 

Paradill:

 

He has been chastised for everything he believes and everything he is by his father, his god. Who can say how you would react? If you did everything you thought your dad wanted of you, you made everything in his image because he is the strongest, cleverest dad in the world , he is the best and he is always right, he is your hero. Then one day, your dad comes along, kicks over all your work and tells you to do better and that you're wrong. For most of us, this is the teenage years, for a being as powerful as Lorgar, it is the purging of everything in search of the truth.

But Lorgar was not a teenager, he was a grown man. And a Primarch, who was supposed to be above petty human issues. And he had been given the responsibility over billions and billions of human lives. And he had failed to do a good job.

 

 

Razhbad:

 

Lorgar was not like Russ and Guilleman who had no qualms in wiping out civilisations. Lorgar wanted to do it for the right reasons and he felt that it had all been wrong.

First of all, Lorgar was quite happy to wipe out civilisations:

 

"Lorgar led his Legion throughout the glory years of the Great Crusade, setting out to eradicate and destroy all forms of blasphemy and heresy that threatened the Emperor's realm. All manner of ancient scrolls, books, artwork and icons were burned and smashed before the advancing ranks of the Legion. In their place, vast monuments and cathedrals, all dedicated to the Emperor, were erected upon the mounds of dead of those who had resisted conversion(...)

The progress of the Word Bearers was slow, but complete. None escaped the crozius or the bolter. Entire worlds were scourged of the living for their refusal to submit to the will of the emperor."

(Index Astartes Word Bearers)

 

Second of all, and this ties into his actions described above, the Emperor did not ask him to act that way. Lorgar was wiping out civilisation due to reasons he himself had made up. It was not because of a "wrong imperial truth". Had Lorgar even listened to that "imperial truth", then he would not have demanded worship for the Emperor from the worlds he conquered. No, Lorgar was doing his own thing. And it was not what the emperor wanted of him.

 

 

Edit: And just because you had to bring up Guilliman, this is how the Index Astartes describes his actions in comparison:

 

"He liberated countless worlds from the domination of aliens and fould Chaos renegades, but where some of his brother Primarchs* left a trail of death and destruction in their wake, Roboute brought peace and fresh prosperity. Every world the Ultramarines liberated readily took its place amongst those loyal to the Imperium, and Guilliman's genius for planning campaigns ensured that the planet's population and industry suffered the minimum amount of collateral damage."

 

*This likely refers to such Primarchs as Angron and Curze, but the description of Lorgar's advance does not look too good in comparison either.

[Razhbad]

The Emperor's concern with Lorgar was not with that fact he was wiping out people it was that he was worshipping him and being too slow. The Emperor makes it very clear in the Last Church that those who do not accept the Imperial Truth and resist him only deserve destruction. John Grammaticus even notes how blood thirsty the Emperor is. Now with Guilleman he is a lot less blood thirsty then his father or his brothers but still slays thousands on his own planet and millions in the first heretic.

 

Now with Lorgar as it clearly shows in TFH he does not want mass slaughter, now he may have done it but at least he is repentent about it. Something that so far no Primarchs have displayed (except Guilleman) in the HH series.

 

As to your subject about the Primarchs not being Teenagers i am guessing you did not go to BLL, as it was raised that all the Primarch's are deliberately based on teenagers.

[calgar101]

We know that the Imperium has no qualms about killing those opposed to their ideals and the Emperors vision but some Primarchs (Horus) did have problems with killing other humans and did seek diplomatic negotiations first. In the Index Astartes (I believe) we are told how the Emperor is unsettled by Lorgars worship of him as a god and all the religious ceremonies Lorgar and the people of Colchis undertake when the pair are reunited, so it is not as if Lorgar was never told before or anything.

 

During TFH I got the impression that the Ultramarines were not there to kill the civilians of the planet but instead were to destroy its cities and religious buildings.. The citizens were giving fair warning to evacuate, only the foolish and stupid didn't. Do you think Guilliman enjoyed that task? The pointless destruction of a world? No. If you think that then you truly do not understand him.

[Lexington]

It seems that the hatred of Lorgar focuses on the fact that out of all the Primarch's Lorgar is the most human like, so is the hatred really against Lorgar or against the species in general?????

I don't really see Lorgar as any more human than his brother Primarchs. He claims that they're warriors rather than scholars, sure, but human being have been picking up tools and bashing each other's brains in since well before any age we've got written record of. There's not a character in the 40K universe that has a really "inhuman" motive - I don't even know that we've got the language to describe that sort of thing.

[Ubermensch Commander]

The difference is when most of us find out we are wrong we have not devoted our entire existance and life to that cause.

 

It seems that the hatred of Lorgar focuses on the fact that out of all the Primarch's Lorgar is the most human like, so is the hatred really against Lorgar or against the species in general?????

 

Ahhh Legatus, I see you have beaten me to the table yet again.

 

No, many of us hate his less than human stupidity and psychoses. It is against Lorgar, trust me. I respect Vulkan being human and humane. I despise Lorgar for his intellectual and moral weakness.

 

I do not allow that his faith is justification for what he did for several reasons:

 

1) He willfully ignored evidence that his worship was not what his "god" wanted. The Imperiums history and goals were clearly stated. The history of Earth's Unification Wars, The Emperor's own personal denial of his divinity on multiple occasions and even to Lorgar's face PRIOR to the events of First Heretic, the sending of secular rationalists to planets brought into the Imperium, and the actions of Legions in destroying churches, all lead to an obvious and indelible conclusion that the Emperor did not welcome worship.

Lorgar was not tricked, or fooled, or misled by the Emperor. His unwillingness to see what was right in front of him is no one's fault but his own.

By fighting to create the Imperium, by agreeing to serve his liege lord, by using the Imperium's resources to do all that he did, Lorgar owes his lord fealty and to obey the laws and decrees of the Imperium.

 

2) He fails to rise to the task put before him after the obvious and rather merciful retribution came. They destroyed one city and without even annihilating the populace within. By Legion standards, that is fairly humane. If indeed his "faith" was so great, he should have taken the rebuke from his "god" and done as commanded. But no. Because his worldview, wrongly held, gets destroyed suddenly it is ok to betray your brothers and destroy everything that was built? No. No. A thousand times no. That is paltry justification for betrayal.

 

3)He fails to examine Chaos in any rational or even moral sense. Lorgar states in First Heretic that he would not follow a god that was wrong/evil/corrupt, that would commit such act as, oh say, blowing up a city of the "faithful." Then what does he do? Blindly, Willfully, and most of all Hypocritically, all to satisfy his pathological need to worship, he follows Chaos as "truth" without ever even looking for alternatives. He ignores the bloodrites required by Chaos, the corruption and twisting of personalities, the wanton and palpable wrongness that the Daemons and Possessed exude, and even ignores the warnings of those of his Legion who had not lied to him (Argel Tal) while

 

4) Continuing to listen to those that he know have lied to him his whole life. Kor Phaeron followed by Erebus. This is just plain stupid and hypocritical given his stance on the Emperor's actions. So, Lorgar feels betrayed by the Emperor's actions, who tried to get his rationalist message across anyway he could and never waffled on his stance, yet Lorgar has no issue with K. Phaeron/Erebus's lifetime of lies?

 

Being wrong is no excuse to murder your brothers, spit on your oaths of loyalty, and plunge the galaxy into hell just to satisfy a pathological need.

If he were truly faithful he would have taken the rebuke, not punched old man Malcador in freakin face, not thrown a temper tantrum, and then carried out the Emperor's wishes.

Once the galaxy were secure, he could have put down his weapons and pursued the advance of philosophy that he claimed to love and seen if he could fit in his "faith" then.

An immortal being, at the cusp of galactic domination for his people, all he had to do was wait.

 

 

 

Side note after looking at some later posts: Those trying to claim Lorgar was somehow NOT a killer of worlds, I am afraid that is simply not true given the information we have. Lorgar was a religious zealot and fighting to forge an empire with all the death and destruction that entails. He is a Primarch and Gene-Sire of an Asartes Legion. He murdered worlds for the Emperor and killed his own planets population in religious pogroms before the Emperor ever landed on Colchis. While he is no Curze or Angron, he is not a "nice guy." His brand is particularly bad because although he may honestly have found such actions distasteful he carried them out because is was "necessary" for his faith. His faith demanded it.

 

The only two Primarchs I can think of, offhand, that are noted as being (relatively) humane are Guilliman and Vulkan. Roboute is noted as taking great care to limit casualities and help rebuild worlds, this is how he managed to have such a large recruitment base and stable supply lines. Vulkan's famous quote "Any man who values life over pride is worthy of my service" seems to be carried over to his Legion, though admittedly we do not have HH books on them yet.

[Perrin]

I don't hate Lorgar, but imo he was too desperate for someone to devote all of his energy and victories to.

Now, I do hate Erebus because he is a joke of a space marine, not in anyway that he is written but rather in his scheming, sneaking personality.

Lorgar was almost niave, though all of the space marines and primarchs at the time were niave in my opinion because they 1) Hadnt encountered Chaos and 2) Hadnt really encountered anything that they couldnt defeat.

 

This topic has made me want to read TFH again, and just as i was getting motivated to do coursework... damn <_<

[Vixthra]

No, many of us hate his less than human stupidity and psychoses. It is against Lorgar, trust me. I respect Vulkan being human and humane. I despise Lorgar for his intellectual and moral weakness.

 

I do not allow that his faith is justification for what he did for several reasons:

 

An interesting opinion but you gloss over a lot of info to fit your version of events it seems, so maybe I'll do the same lol.

 

1) He willfully ignored evidence that his worship was not what his "god" wanted. The Imperiums history and goals were clearly stated. The history of Earth's Unification Wars, The Emperor's own personal denial of his divinity on multiple occasions and even to Lorgar's face PRIOR to the events of First Heretic, the sending of secular rationalists to planets brought into the Imperium, and the actions of Legions in destroying churches, all lead to an obvious and indelible conclusion that the Emperor did not welcome worship.

Lorgar was not tricked, or fooled, or misled by the Emperor. His unwillingness to see what was right in front of him is no one's fault but his own.

 

Whilst this is indisputable, you're ignoring a few key facts. Firstly Lorgars initial love and adoration for the Emp. This was pretty all encompassing. Whether it was wanted / desired or not, Lorgars love for Empy was on such a scale, due to his nature AND nurture, that he revered him as a deity.

 

Said deity refuting his divinity isn't going to matter to the worshipper, *oh my Lord is so humble even in all his glory* etc etc so the worshipper will most likely continue to worship, even if it has to be in secret........

 

Lectitio Divinatus was written in secret, it was copied and passed around in secret. The Emp decried his divinity not just to Lorgar but to the entire Imperium yet MANY other respectable Imperium loving citizens AND military members ignored the Emps own requests and continued to venerate him as divine.

 

Secondly, Lorgar wasn't the only one *stupid* enough to think the Emp was actually divine. Horus himself set his boots on the path to damnation under the premise that Empy had gone home to read *How to become a God and Master of the Universe*. This would ALSO be after the censure of the Word Bearers so Horus himself had seen (or at least read the memo)that Empy punished Lorgar for venerating him like a God, yet he still started a civil war based on this idea.

 

By your rational above, Lorgar walked around with his fingers in his ears saying *lalalalala not listening* when there's really quite a lot more to it <_<

 

 

2) He fails to rise to the task put before him after the obvious and rather merciful retribution came. They destroyed one city and without even annihilating the populace within. By Legion standards, that is fairly humane. If indeed his "faith" was so great, he should have taken the rebuke from his "god" and done as commanded. But no. Because his worldview, wrongly held, gets destroyed suddenly it is ok to betray your brothers and destroy everything that was built? No. No. A thousand times no. That is paltry justification for betrayal.

 

Glossing over facts that don't fit your rational 1-OH-1!! Right here Mr :cuss

 

Lorgar does NOT fail to rise to the task after censure. In fact he brings more worlds into the Imperial fold than ever before. He DOES take the rebuke and do as commanded, yes in a very petulant manner but you imply that he ignores the censure in its entirety.

 

But to go on to say

Because his worldview, wrongly held, gets destroyed suddenly it is ok to betray your brothers and destroy everything that was built?

, there's no 'suddenly' about it. Lorgar doesn't 'turn' just because of the censure. This is the main crux of the problem and why people despise him in my opinion. You seem to be under the misapprehension that Lorgar walked away from the censure with the seeds of heresy sown deep into some revenge plan. There are many, many factors that lead to his betrayal, ranging from the censure, his upbringing on Colchis, and the notion that mankind's existence is hollow without faith (one he is not alone in, see above point) to name a few.

 

3)He fails to examine Chaos in any rational or even moral sense. Lorgar states in First Heretic that he would not follow a god that was wrong/evil/corrupt, that would commit such act as, oh say, blowing up a city of the "faithful." Then what does he do? Blindly, Willfully, and most of all Hypocritically, all to satisfy his pathological need to worship, he follows Chaos as "truth" without ever even looking for alternatives. He ignores the bloodrites required by Chaos, the corruption and twisting of personalities, the wanton and palpable wrongness that the Daemons and Possessed exude, and even ignores the warnings of those of his Legion who had not lied to him (Argel Tal) while

 

It's hard to refute the opening part of the point so in honesty I won't try. You're right, for a scholar NOT to examine the morality of what he was considering is plain ignorant. But like a lot of people, I would speculate, Lorgar is on the cusp of being vindicated and would find it easy to only look at the facts that suited his current situation eg. *These are God's...ACTUAL Gods!! This is awesome sauce!!*. Intelligence is often thrown out of the window when confronted by your hearts desire. I for one consider myself fairly articulate yet when I met the band Sepultura many years ago I was so star struck I could barely speak for example.

 

But to say

all to satisfy his pathological need to worship, he follows Chaos as "truth" without ever even looking for alternatives.

is again wrong and not based in fact (fact clearly being the canonical fiction that we have :cuss ).

 

This is not just to satisfy his need for worship at all........at ALL!!! I can't stress that enough. It's not the first time it's been bandied around as a reason but it's just plain not true. Lorgar thinks, regardless of the fact that WE know he is wrong, that he is SAVING MANKIND FROM DESTRUCTION. He's not dragging everyone down with him because he was told off, he's not sinking humanity into the hells of chaos on some whim, he thinks he is doing the right thing to continue the existence of his species and unfortunately it seems it requires him to do some unsavory things.

 

4) Continuing to listen to those that he know have lied to him his whole life. Kor Phaeron followed by Erebus. This is just plain stupid and hypocritical given his stance on the Emperor's actions. So, Lorgar feels betrayed by the Emperor's actions, who tried to get his rationalist message across anyway he could and never waffled on his stance, yet Lorgar has no issue with K. Phaeron/Erebus's lifetime of lies?

 

I'm in agreement with you here. I'm a big fan of both Erebus and Kor Phaeron but jeez, essentially, regardless of any father/son relationship they have, Lorgar is STILL their Primarch and I for one would have whooped them both upside the head if they spoke to me with such familiarity and candor whilst pouring honeyed lies into my ear. Especially when they told me that they had been secretly re-establishing Colchisian religions on worlds that were conquered in MY name *Whoopa!!*

 

 

 

Please, for the love of all that is Imperial (I assume you're Imperial) STOP perpetuating the fallacy that Lorgar was some out-of-the-blue switcher that only started to worship Chaos gods because he got spanked by daddy. It's just not true.

[Captain Idaho]

I'm a bit late to the party but I'm gona bring a bottle!

 

The reason there is disdain and even contempt for Lorgar is two-fold, both of which are entirely linked and feed off each other.

 

The first is the most obvious; his role in corrupting other Primarchs (including his Legion as an extension of his will and that of his closest advisors). This one is easy to get really but on it's own isn't going to cause the widespread hatred we see burning in the posts of enthusiastic forum junkies.

 

The second reason is difficult for people to put their finger on somewhat. It's the very nature of his weakness. Every Primarch was weak in some way. Even the Angel had a flaw, his being his own modesty preventing his preminence among his brothers.

 

Most of the Chaos Primarchs fell due to their weakness, though not all. Fulgrim was un-knowingly being influenced by a daemon, for example. These weaknesses of Lorgar's brothers are largely due to some outside event, or uncontrolable emotion damage, or what ever.

 

However, Lorgar's weakness stemmed from his failure. The Emperor's reproach hurt him and what people noticed was his reaction to that hurt. They saw desparation in him and a willingness to be lead in an effort to have his pain healed. His weakness lead to a choice that destroyed his father's dream in what can be interpreted as spite. Because of him, mankind stood on the brink, all for his hurt pride and need to be proven right.

 

Essentially, they saw a Primarch who was selfish in a way that reminded them of a spoilt child from a well off western family who rebels against his family into a dark path.

 

Of course, this was the magic of his story that is unappreciated. All Primarchs who fell would likely show some side to them which was very distasteful and makes the reader despise them. Unfortunately for Lorgar, his weakness was shown in a very human detail that to me was the first of it's kind. We really know how Lorgar feels (to an extent of course) and can see his humanity. Other books only touched upon the weakness of the fallen Primarchs, leaving them as mystical figures. Lorgar wore his heart on his sleeve.

 

Do I hate Lorgar (as much as I hate a make-believe character)? Yes, I despise his weakness, but I understand it greater than any other Primarch. I also know his weakness was his greatest potential that was only realised when he worshipped the Chaos Powers. That is his tragedy; that his rejection didn't just ignite a fuse to start the Heresy, but his Emperor-gifted potential was rejected by those he would save and embraced by the Chaos Gods.

 

Hell, knowing the nature of the Warp and what fuels the denzions inside, combined with the Emperor's long term planning, it is likely Lorgar and his abilities were to be a future key element to channelling humanity's warp-prescence in a particular direction (after the destruction/limitations imposed on the Chaos Powers).

 

That's my view though, take it or rip it apart. ;)

[Aegnor]

Glossing over facts that don't fit your rational 1-OH-1!! Right here Mr :)

 

Lorgar does NOT fail to rise to the task after censure. In fact he brings more worlds into the Imperial fold than ever before. He DOES take the rebuke and do as commanded, yes in a very petulant manner but you imply that he ignores the censure in its entirety.

 

But does so only with trecherous intentions in his heart as a mask to conceal those intentions. Hard to give him credit for taking his lumps and getting on with the job when he's only doing so to allow him to undermine his father.

 

This is not just to satisfy his need for worship at all........at ALL!!! I can't stress that enough. It's not the first time it's been bandied around as a reason but it's just plain not true. Lorgar thinks, regardless of the fact that WE know he is wrong, that he is SAVING MANKIND FROM DESTRUCTION. He's not dragging everyone down with him because he was told off, he's not sinking humanity into the hells of chaos on some whim, he thinks he is doing the right thing to continue the existence of his species and unfortunately it seems it requires him to do some unsavory things.

 

but fortunately (for him) it requires him to do exactly what he wanted to do in the first place - become a religious preacher manipulating people's need for faith to get them to follow him - albeit with a stated objective of helping them in the long run. Convenient, no? In a universe where he is intimately aware that there are powerful psykers, many of them xenos who are inimical to human life (not referring to Chaos here), to accept so readily a vision someone else shows you is extremely gullible. It was the thing that annoyed me the most about how Horus's fall was shown as well.

 

It's a matter of opinion I guess and I acknowledge that TFH showed Lorgar convinced by the vision he'd seen, but in my opinion only, I can't believe it really believed the "save humanity" part - it was a rationalization to help him doing exactly what he wanted to do - be the one with possession of privileged info about hidden "truths", using that knowledge and his gifts to get people to follow him.