Bite the hand that feeds you

[Vixthra]

Captain Idaho -

 

Do I hate Lorgar (as much as I hate a make-believe character)? Yes, I despise his weakness, but I understand it greater than any other Primarch. I also know his weakness was his greatest potential that was only realised when he worshipped the Chaos Powers. That is his tragedy; that his rejection didn't just ignite a fuse to start the Heresy, but his Emperor-gifted potential was rejected by those he would save and embraced by the Chaos Gods

 

I don't really mind that people hate Lorgar, fill your boots it makes for great tabletop and forum banter, and I'm not exactly Guillimans biggest fan :huh: . No, my problem is the misinformation that's taken as canon (I believe the word is actually 'fanon'?). But you seem to have an accurate grasp of Lorgars tragedy and for that I take my hat off to you.

 

 

Aegnor -

 

but fortunately (for him) it requires him to do exactly what he wanted to do in the first place - become a religious preacher manipulating people's need for faith to get them to follow him - albeit with a stated objective of helping them in the long run. Convenient, no? In a universe where he is intimately aware that there are powerful psykers, many of them xenos who are inimical to human life (not referring to Chaos here), to accept so readily a vision someone else shows you is extremely gullible. It was the thing that annoyed me the most about how Horus's fall was shown as well.

 

I think you should add Alpharius to this list as well then, the believing of xenos lies seems to be a flaw in Primarch genetics :)

 

But to look at the text I've quoted, you've kind of hit the nail right on the head! He got to 'have his cake AND eat it'. Lorgars fall is such an obvious event when you look at his life history, rationale, passions.

 

Gonna slightly balance my bullheaded defense of Lorgar with the following

 

His biggest flaw, in my opinion is his hubris, believing without listening to opposing council and not examining that he could be wrong. He went into the whole shebang without discussing the implications with his father or brothers and whilst I do believe he went into it with the right motives, it does reek of wounded pride and arrogance. Still, if Horus had spoken to daddy before declaring war (another point that REALLY annoys me) we might not have had a heresy to discuss! This family huh! They need group sessions on how to 'open up' haha.

 

It wasn't his religiosity as that energy could have been channeled elsewhere under guidance. Not his desire to believe in 'something' as countless people, both military and civilian secretly worshiped Empy. And DEFINITELY not that he was some sulky, stroppy teenager that threw his toys out of the pram because daddy caught him looking at *Readers Gods - Dig those Delicious Deities*

 

I actually think Calgar101's comment earlier of forcing the Word Bearers to work alongside Guilliman instead of sending custodes would have been a far better 'punishment' and maybe the big four would have had to have found another preacher.

[Captain Idaho]

Oh I get that brother! People always judge a Primarch on half truths and common opinion, unless it is their favourite. Lorgar's resentment is reflected in Guilliman's from the loyalist fan base, which is ironic in the extreme! :huh:

 

It'll bug you terribly when you see little comments which aren't quite true but criticise you're favourite army. It's the curse for choosing the best of your faction :)

 

(Lorgar having the best description of his inner workings for sure)

[Aegnor]

I thought about adding Alpharius, except it's not clear that he believed the Cabal or was doing what they wanted him to do. He obviously believed at least part of it, but not without significant questions and ultimately making his own decision.

[Ubermensch Commander]

@Vixthra

 

To avoid a wall of text allow me to reply to your response

 

To summarize: As Aegnor pointed out, his "save mankind" schtick with Chaos, when combined with his willful ignorance of the his Father's denial of divinity, does demonstrate a pathological need to worship. He follows this need even at the expense of the entire human race. ANYONE who could believe that a being/force that causes madness by simply existing and has used a "father figure" to lie to them their entire lives (Daemon and Phaeron/Erebus respectively) is somehow a universal truth without ever analyzing such a thing while claiming to be a "Philosopher", a lover of knowledge, is a hypocrite at best and a psychopath at worst. He really does have a pathological need to worship.

 

Now you say that Lorgar did not "actually" believe in the Emperor's divinity. I would have to disagree and would point to the back and forth between the Emperor and Lorgar in the ruins of Monarchia. "Father, you are a god, in all but name. All that remains is to confess to it." "You are a god. Say the words and end the lie." In addition to raising churches and writing the Lectitio Divinatus, Lorgar was not subtle or silent about his wayward beliefs. He truly did believe the Emperor was a god, and his definition of a god is based solely on power. "In your grip,a thousand worlds turn! By your will, a million vessels sail the void . You are immortal, undying, seeing all and knowing all that transpires across creation. Father, you are a god, in all but name All that remains is to confess to it."

So yes, Lorgar was deranged/stupid enough to believe the Emperor was a god. The key difference between his actions, and the unnoticed belief of many in the Imperium is that they were not Primarchs, highly visible and highly ranked servants of the Emperor and his atheistic empire.

 

I have not glossed over or ignored key facts. Lorgars adoration of the Emperor does not change his weakness and failure. It does not exonerate him. Were he truly "faithful" and if he truly did revere the Emperor he would have listened. Or, embraced the Imperial truth with vigor.

Unfortunately he does fail to rise to the task of the censure as he BURNS worlds in his rush to reclaim worlds, all because he is shocked and distraught at the obvious retribution visited upon him. And, as we see, he is not bringing them into the Imperial fold. Not really. What Kor Phaeron had done in secret, spreading the seeds of Chaos worship beneath the Imperial facade, the Word Bearers do so with Lorgars blessing after Monarchia. Again, that wold seems a turning point for his attitude.

 

And yes, he does "suddenly" turn with the destruction of Monarchia. This is the event that marks him going shopping around in the bargain bin of divinity, trying to find something worship and ends up with him listening to Kor Phaeron and seeking out Chaos. The entirety of Chapter Five in TFH has Lorgar turning to the "Old Ways" since he believe it is truth...from the lips of Kor Phaeron, a man who just admitted to lying to him his whole life and acting to undermine Lorgar's cult on compliant worlds since the beginning of the Crusade. That seems to be a quick about face for a man professing great faith.

 

His upbringing and nature of religiosity and being a professed philosopher should not have warranted a turn to Chaos. If anything it should never have come to Monarchia's destruction. As a man of faith he should have accepted his father/liege lord/god's word and changed. As a philosopher he should have reevaluated his beliefs when presented with new knowledge and evidence.

 

Even allowing for his faith, when faced with the "wrath o' god" upon Monarchia, Lorgar could have and should have stoically bore it and embraced the Emperor's vision. To quote the Horus Heresy artbook Vol II "...I put my faith in science and logic as should you! Look to Roboute Guilliman of the Ultramarines. He has faith in excess. He has faith that our mission is holy, not I. His example is the one I would command you to follow!" Now I acknowledge that specific statement has been retconned by TBH, but the core ideal stands. If Lorgar truly was faithful, without his pathological need to worship something, he could have placed faith in the Emperor's plan and mission for him. But instead he gets on his knees before Slaanesh and the other Chaos powers without ever questioning them or seeking for alternate deities...I hear the Eldar have alot...some...TWO! Two gods left! ;)

[Captain Idaho]

The irony of course is the Emperor is a god and Lorgar was right. However, it was his rejection of the Emperor and embracing the Chaos Gods that made this occur.

 

I definitely think Lorgar had a need for vindication but I'm not so sure about pathological need for worship, but he was right about the Emperor's divinity all along.

 

I personally believe the Emperor was a God before his internment in the Golden Throne, using the 40k universes definition of the term God. His denial of it was part of a broader plan to eliminate his rivals. As Lorgar said, "you are a God in everything but name". He was revered and worshiped as a great man, which essentially is the same thing as a god in the 40K universe.

 

He certainly became a god after his internment, simple because so many people pay him tribute (a sourace of power) and he spends his time fighting the powers of the Warp to protect humanity. However, it's a 40K god, which is something different to what we consider to be a god.

[chaplain belisarius]

very interesting thread...i really need to read the first heretic now! <_<

[Pyroriffic]

Edit: Thanks for the reminder of the authors name, I felt a bit disrespectful

 

Don't feel disrespectful. I've not been married that long, I constantly forget my name anyway.

 

<_<

[Razhbad]

Fearless leader, always good to see you

[Pyroriffic]

Fearless leader, always good to see you

 

Not so sure about the 'fearless' bit...

[Dark Mechanicum]

Time to weigh in myself now, and I bring a Night Lord perspective to this hate of Lorgar. I personally dont hate Lorgar or the Word Bearers, I enjoy their own story and how they work together. What I DO hate about them is their willingness to embrace that which should only be a tool (told ya, Night Lord perspective). In TFH when Curze makes that comment to Lorgar he is also looking at alot of possessed Marines. Yea to his eyes that is rank and weak.

 

On Lorgar going back to the Old Ways and the dynamic duo (Phaeron/Erebus). Kor Phaeron has always been a simpering worm and a manipulator. He RAISED Lorgar, much in the way of Luther raising the Lion. Of course Lorgar is going to trust his judgement in some things. Considering the fact he is almost killed by Lorgar when he confesses in leaving aspects alive of the faith. Lorgar was pretty angry about that. Kor Phaeron was also suffering from human amongst Space Marines syndrome, much in the way the commanders of the Dark Angels were when they were raised up and made only better human not Space Marine.

 

Dont forget that Lorgar wrote the book that all the Chaplains were using to spread the word. Erebus and Kor Phaeron wrote in extra pages but it was Lorgar who wrote the book itself. Erebus might not have much respect for his Primarch and does his manipulation, but it is Erebus who is also telling Lorgar in TFH what it feels like to be called out by the Emperor especially in front of the Ultramarines.

 

On People's comments about the other Primarchs turning to Chaos/rebelling: I'll speak only of Curze cause the rest dont matter to me too much. Curze always saw the rebellion happening no matter what. He also saw his own legion become degenerate and lawless but nobody from the Emperor down is listening to him say "I need to stop recruiting and I have to clean house" So his legion just gets worse, his own philosophy is that of Punishment creates Order. A correct view as the worlds he left did not rebel as they were afraid of the punishment they would receive. Or at least I have no idea and will say it to see what happens. The Night Lords believed they were betrayed by an Emperor who told them to fight one way and then tried to censure them for doing their duty.

 

A parallel is brought forth with the Word Bearers: 100 years of fighting for the Emperor. Raising up images in his name and worship through the compliant worlds he had. It is only after the 100 years is he brought to task. It is only after he has gone too slow, NOT through worship, but SPEED. Is he brought to censure and made to kneel in the dust of a compliant world where all cities have been destroyed, and that world has no hope of doing anything now. They were censured for going to slow, the worship was the reason given, but it was about speed. Lorgar had it right when he asked the question of why now? Why after 100 years am I being punished now after my father watched the parade and worship on my planet? Why is it NOW that I'm being punished for my beliefs when he has known about them for so long? What is it about this time frame has the Emperor suddenly telling me that i'm wrong? These are all valid questions that Lorgar asked himself before he started the search for the Eye. Its one of those things that definetly gets you thinking about the Primarchs and their relationship with the Emperor.

 

@Rahzbad: Dude, you just made me smile with that Age of Darkness Spoiler. I'm so happy about that and can't wait till May when it comes out.

 

@Vixthra: I'm excited about this thread its an awesome thread.

 

Reason for Edit: Posted only part of post.

[Razhbad]

Well Konrad is by far the coolest of the Traitor Primarchs

[A D-B]

I've tried not to weigh in so far, as my presence is usually poison to any discussion in progress (see the Ingethel thread...), and this is a great thread that doesn't really need me banging on about whatever. But I reckon it's worth noting that the Lorgar we see in The First Heretic (and indeed, the Word Bearers Legion we see) are souls at the very nadir of their existence. They're not fighting with the passion they used to have. They're not characterised by their faith, because their hopes and beliefs have been shattered, and the truth they've found is not only unexpected, it's also hideous.

 

But Lorgar will change, as will the Legion. After Istvaan, Lorgar finds himself - as does his Legion. They are the ones - perhaps the only ones - to really improve with Chaos, in the sense of coming to terms with who they are, and what they're fighting for. They become what they've always wanted to be, and they find strength in the betrayals they inflict across the Imperium. Lorgar's last moment of innocence was that fight with Corax on Istvaan V. After the Dropsite Massacre... he's unrestrained, and let loose.

 

And he is not a fool. There's every chance he knows that up until now, he has held too much respect and trust in foster father's presence. He's an emotional being - I like to think realistically sentimental - but he will not be content to be led by others anymore. That's why he fought Corax, even certain he'd die, and against Kor Phaeron's orders. That was Lorgar's turning point. He makes mention that they have found the gods, but they are not slaves to them. That would be a worthless faith.

 

While it was necessary to set them up like that, and I'm very proud of the novel, I can't wait to show them as a Legion of hate-chanting, fire-bringing fanatics - the equal of any other Legion - and their primarch as the soulful, but poisoned, Archpriest of Chaos.

 

I know it might sound self-indulgent (it's me, remember...) and be frustrating, given the wait between novels, but I really wanted the Legions and primarchs I got to touch to have a distinct arc of progress that was extremely well-explored and highlighted. I want them to be explained the clearest, and shown in the most depth, with the greatest changes. I don't suggest I've done it better than any of the other writers, but it's the most interesting part of the Heresy for me, and I guess my writing makes the attempt to reflect it.

 

Anyway, shutting up now.

[Aegnor]

And he is not a fool. There's every chance he knows that up until now, he has held too much respect and trust in foster father's presence. He's an emotional being - I like to think realistically sentimental - but he will not be content to be led by others anymore. That's why he fought Corax, even certain he'd die, and against Kor Phaeron's orders. That was Lorgar's turning point. He makes mention that they have found the gods, but they are not slaves to them. That would be a worthless faith.

 

While it was necessary to set them up like that, and I'm very proud of the novel, I can't wait to show them as a Legion of hate-chanting, fire-bringing fanatics - the equal of any other Legion - and their primarch as the soulful, but poisoned, Archpriest of Chaos.

 

And now I can't wait to read it!

 

That he, like several other characters in the HH series at this point, isn't a "finished product" yet is a really good point, and one I keep forgetting in reading the series. I'm tending by default to not think of characters' arcs going across several books.

 

Man, you've got a lot of books to write! :)

[Dark Mechanicum]

@Razhbad: You are so correct.

[The_son_of_Dorn]

konrad is not the coolest by any means......(unless your a fan, which i am not)

 

Logar was a pawn, yet even the lowest may rise up, the first may be the last and the last may be the first.

 

But tbh i truley believe it is the sins of man that triumph over the virtues of primarch in this instance.

[Aegnor]

Define "sin"

[Paradill]

define 'virtues'.

[Marshal Rohr]

define 'is'

[scmbpinto]

This discussion on Lorgar and his Legion is great! I am of two minds when it comes to Lorgar. I feel for Lorgar more than any other of the Primarchs we have seen fall because of his compassion to, not only his Legion, but the worlds he has brought to complaicency. I am not a religious person but I cannot imagine what it would be like to have your faith so ruethlessly destroyed infront of you. So I can empathize with Lorgar on his hunt for answers. We as a species have been searching for answers since we were able of conscious thought.

 

Where I get angry and hate Lorgar is how his search lead him to blood, death, and insanity. He ignored Argel Tal's and the Custodian's warnings needing something to believe in. He abbandoned his own beliefs just so he could find something to worship. He damned humanity to suite his own needs.

 

I both love and hate Lorgar, his complexity makes him interesting. Those are my thoughts!

[Aegnor]

Typical fence sitting from a Dark Angel!

 

(I kid, I kid! ;))

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Wow. I didn't believe it was possible for such junk and such worthwhile discussion to be in the same post at once, much less covering almost four pages.

 

 

This is probably the most accurate post in this entire thread.

The reason there is disdain and even contempt for Lorgar is two-fold, both of which are entirely linked and feed off each other.

 

The first is the most obvious; his role in corrupting other Primarchs (including his Legion as an extension of his will and that of his closest advisors). This one is easy to get really but on it's own isn't going to cause the widespread hatred we see burning in the posts of enthusiastic forum junkies.

 

The second reason is difficult for people to put their finger on somewhat. It's the very nature of his weakness. Every Primarch was weak in some way. Even the Angel had a flaw, his being his own modesty preventing his preminence among his brothers.

 

Most of the Chaos Primarchs fell due to their weakness, though not all. Fulgrim was un-knowingly being influenced by a daemon, for example. These weaknesses of Lorgar's brothers are largely due to some outside event, or uncontrolable emotion damage, or what ever.

 

However, Lorgar's weakness stemmed from his failure. The Emperor's reproach hurt him and what people noticed was his reaction to that hurt. They saw desparation in him and a willingness to be lead in an effort to have his pain healed. His weakness lead to a choice that destroyed his father's dream in what can be interpreted as spite. Because of him, mankind stood on the brink, all for his hurt pride and need to be proven right.

 

Essentially, they saw a Primarch who was selfish in a way that reminded them of a spoilt child from a well off western family who rebels against his family into a dark path.

 

Of course, this was the magic of his story that is unappreciated. All Primarchs who fell would likely show some side to them which was very distasteful and makes the reader despise them. Unfortunately for Lorgar, his weakness was shown in a very human detail that to me was the first of it's kind. We really know how Lorgar feels (to an extent of course) and can see his humanity. Other books only touched upon the weakness of the fallen Primarchs, leaving them as mystical figures. Lorgar wore his heart on his sleeve.

 

Do I hate Lorgar (as much as I hate a make-believe character)? Yes, I despise his weakness, but I understand it greater than any other Primarch. I also know his weakness was his greatest potential that was only realised when he worshipped the Chaos Powers. That is his tragedy; that his rejection didn't just ignite a fuse to start the Heresy, but his Emperor-gifted potential was rejected by those he would save and embraced by the Chaos Gods.

 

Hell, knowing the nature of the Warp and what fuels the denzions inside, combined with the Emperor's long term planning, it is likely Lorgar and his abilities were to be a future key element to channelling humanity's warp-prescence in a particular direction (after the destruction/limitations imposed on the Chaos Powers).

 

I happen to agree completely.

[Captain Idaho]

Many thanks, it's always nice to know you aren't interpreting a facet of a well read story in a way no-one else agrees with!

[Razhbad]

A story afterwards on Lorgar would be interesting to see how he changes, how he becomes such an evil creature of hatred and chaos chanting compared to how he is in TFH.

[Dark Apostle Thirst]

Many thanks, it's always nice to know you aren't interpreting a facet of a well read story in a way no-one else agrees with!

Nah, it's just accurate when it comes to interpretting human psychology :huh:

[Balthamal]

To be honest up until reading TFH i actually hated Lorgar joint most out the Primarchs mainly because he reminded me far too much of Guilliman albeit in a total religious fanatic kind of way. Now that book has come and gone the hatred is transferred intact to Kor Phaeron (whom I am, ironically, praying gets a bolter to the skull at some point in the near future) because he is such a pathetic soul to be one half of the duo that turned 2 Primarchs.

 

For Lorgar himself I feel pity more than anything. He openly acknowledges that he isn't a warrior but is measured only as a warrior in comparison to his brothers. Not a good position to be in. The only thing I find truly irritating about him is the fact that The Emperor MUST have sensed (being the greatest psychic soul to ever live) something of Lorgar's desperation and need to worship ANYTHING. The phrase pissing on your own chips springs to mind.