A closer look at scouts

[greatcrusade08]

A closer look at scouts

For those of you who don?t know me (where have you been hiding) ive taken on the role of B&C scout guru.
For some reason since the release of the 5th edition codex ive been totally enamoured by the little guys and have worked tirelessly to make them a viable and competitive tabletop choice. On top of this ive also tried to understand every aspect of them in terms of fluff and background material, 5th edition brought with it a whole new method of progression within a space marine chapter and the fluff as we know it changed drastically.
Because of this and my love of 5th edition, im using it as my foundation, on which all my articles and discussions are built.
Please note, that a lot of this work is inductive reasoning, a lot of assumptions are made based loosely on established information, your are free to disregard this article if you don?t agree with my assertions.

So that I don?t go over too much older ground, the following link may prove useful as some light reading before becoming too involved in this coming fluff based article.
Training marines the codex way

How long to train a scout?

The way I want this article to read would be to document a scouts path from entry into the tenth to the point at which he leaves, before I can do that id like to lay down some important facts.



This image shows us that the minimum age for recruitment and intial implants is 10-12 whilst the age for implantation of black carapace is 16-18
In white dwarf 98, Rick Priestly wrote an article entitled "the origins of the legiones astartes", and it was later published the warhammer 40,000 compendium. A more indepth look can be found in white dwarf 247 and was the basis of the first index astartes article (from which the above diagram is taken).
It shows the creation of a space marine and information on the 19 implants, but more importantly it states the following

Most recruits join the ranks as a brother between the age of 16-18 years

So humans enter the scout company between the age of 10-12 and leave between 16-18, we could see this as a 4-8 years period, but this is very unclear figure, personally, given the well documented and regimented practice of creating scouts id suggest the numbers given are more upper and lower levels, by this I mean those who enter early at age 10 would be ready by age 16, those who enter age 12 would be ready age 18.
Which gives us a figure of 6 years within the tenth company to both train and fully mature a new space marine.

Physical maturity of scouts

A space marine scout has much to learn. Not only must he become accustomed to the many biological engineered enhancements which are at work in his body, but he must learn the litany of battle which will fortify and strengthen him.

What has always interested me is the nature of scout squads, at which point in their training have they got which implants and how are their squads structured? According to training or according to pyshical maturity? Do the two have a connection?
What we do know for certain is that at day 0 they have neither training nor implants and 6 years later they have fully both, surely there must be a correlation between the two, does one affect the other?
I intend to find out!

What we know from my previous article is that a scout has 3 distinct ?phases? of training
The first being their ?boot camp?

Through a gruelling training regime that lasts for many months

The second stage is as scouts proper, pg 66 of the C:SM goes into quote a lot of detail into what this means, to summarise:

• Use of other/advanced weapons, heavy bolter, missile launcher, sniper rifle and melta bomb
  Acting as part of an infiltration force
  Stealth
  Ambushes
  Sabotage
  Kidnap and interrogation
  Seek and destroy.
  Hit and run
  

Its pretty much the epitome of what we consider to be a scout, this second stage reprisents the majority of the scouts time within the tenth.

The third stage is fast attack

During the final stages of a space marines training, he is attached to a scout bike squadron. Scout bikers are employed as fast moving reconnaissance and disruption units. They operate on a far longer leash than other scouts, often operating as a separate and distinct adjunct to the main space marine strike force, answerable to none save their commanding sergeants

Note I used the term fast attack and not scout bikes, this is because I make the assumption that the land speeder storm crews are made up from third stage scouts.
I use the following quote as my reasoning

While scout bikers continue to perform the hit and run tactics they perfected in earlier years of service, their repertoire of combat skills is broadened by hard won experience and further augmented by supplies of special issue equipment

Given the LSS entry talks about clandestine hit and run attacks and daring assaults against otherwise impenetrable fortresses I make the assumption that they are reserved for the more experienced scouts.

Now that ive established the three stages of scout training I think its important to add a time value to each stage, this will help in comparing the physical maturity to the stage of training.
Stage one (boot camp) refers to many months, which as a literary tool is a terrible word to use to describe a passage of time, as a quantitative figure it could mean anything and can imply an infinite figure.
Stage three merely states ?during the final stages? so unfortunately we will need to make some further assumptions in order to push forward.
Given the ?turn over rate? in the scout company through advancement and death, the initial boot camp period is likely to be as short as possible, after all 6 years isn?t long and you don?t want them spending all that time learning to strip clean a boltgun.
Ive always made the asssumption that it?s a sixth month period, its just a prettier round figure and allows for twice yearly reinforcements for scout squads.
I make this assumption for two reasons, firstly we know that some chapters, noteably the ultramarines have a regular influx of scouts.
And using the ultramarines as a base for this part of the discussion the following is relevant

Brother Severus arrived on Macragge as one of sixteen aspirants who had triumphed in competitive games between Quintarn, Tarentus and Masali. These games are held between the triple worlds each seven years to determine which youths should have the honour of attempting to join the Ultramarines Chapter on Macragge

Every seven years!, whats more interesting is that ultramar consists of eight systems of worlds (from codex ultramarines 2nd ed) and given that macragge itself has an academy which I would presume offers new candidates every year (its an academy after all) it leaves 7 other systems.
Is it too much of a coincidence that the ultramarines draw from the triple worlds every 7 years?
Does that mean it recruits from the other systems every seven years as well?
If my spidey sense is correct what we would have is a yearly input from macragge and a yearly imput from another system within ultramar.
Which could either mean the boot camp lasts a year (or there about) or it could mean every 6 months with two new batches every year.
Given the length of time they have to train to full marines (6 years) id suggest we use the latter as a rough figure.

We now have to determine what ?final stages? means in terms of scout bike training, im going to assign a figure of 12-18 months, given the basic training is 6-12 months and only calls upon absolute basics, then its safe to assume that extra time is necessary to master scout bikes and other specialist equipment as well as furthering their current training

What this gives us is the following from a 6 year period.
Boot camp 6-12 months
Scout squads 42 - 54 months
Fast attack 12 - 18 months

We can now draw a comparison to implants.

Physical maturity of scouts

You may need to read the following article first and also refer to the diagram at the top of this article
Astartes Physiology

For this comparison im going to use the 12-18 age figures for my comparison, although it makes no difference.

Comparison of Age, stage of training and Implants in a scout http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/style_images/BandC/nav.gif

YearAgeStage of trainingImplants01211,2,31132 214 4,5 (3 has matured)315 416 6-17, hypnotherapy begins5173 618 18,19 elevated to full battle brother

In stage one (boot camp) the first three implants are given, the secondary heart, osmodula and biscopea, with just these 3 implants a scout would be considered super human and by the end of boot camp the hormones realeased by the biscopea would have greatly enhanced the scouts strength.

After boot camp they advance to scout squads and have about 12-18 months before the haemastamen and larramans organ are implanted, it is about this time that the ossmodula is fully matured and a scout achieves his full bone growth and density.
These implants give the scout enhanced blood oxygen and instant clotting, which although impressive wouldn?t require any great deal of aclimatisation as many other implants.
Age 16 is the point at which most implants are given, its also about the time that hypnotherapy starts, its very coincidental that this happens about 6-12 months before the scouts advance to stage 3, in my mind this is the perfect amount of time to check for rejection and issues before the scouts become more independent and are ?in the field? for longer periods (with stage 3)

Its quite interesting and in my opinion the training and implants ARE linked. The majority of a scouts time in stage 2 is unencumbered by the troubles associated with implants and would require little interference from the apothecaries, its only at the end of stage 2 training that these things take effect and once these things are fully implanted and stable he advances to stage 3 training to complete his stint with the tenth.. again apart from the months leading upto this time, in stage 3 the scouts would be largely untroubled by implants, their stability already assured.
Once their training is complete the progenoids and black carapace are given and they finally become a space marine.

Compostion of scout squads

Another issue that ive been considering for some time is the nature and make-up of the scout squads themselves , although the scout company is not fixed in number like other companies, the codex still says they are ten man squads (give or take attrition)

The official fighting strength of each company is made up of ten squads of ten space marines led by a sergeant.

The chapters 10th company is its scout company consisting of a number of scout squads. Scouts are youths who have been recruited and partially transformed into space marines. Until their physical transformation and training is complete they fight as scouts. The codex astartes dictates no formal size for a scout company as the rate of recruitment is not am fixed amount

It should be noted that although the fighting strength of each squad is officially ten space marines, combat attrition dictates that squads may go into battle under optimal strength

Although its easiest to see a scout sergeant taking a group of new recruits from boot camp through to full battle brother I don?t believe this is the case.
My own opinion is that they have drill instructors to handle boot camp, once they advance to stage 2 and the scout squads they are given a scout sergeant to oversee their training.. However given that all squads are ten men, its highly unlikely that a graduating ?class? will all be assigned the same sergeant, they instead will occupy spaces available in already established squads.

I know its hard to see but try to see it from the perspective of the scout sergeants, they have 9 scouts under their command, for example 2 die in battle and a further 2 are advanced to stage 3, so he will take 4 replacements from the next batch of recruits fresh out of boot, other sergeants will take the numbers they need also.
What this means is a scout squad would be made up of scouts of differing skill levels, which is not a bad thing as the more experienced scouts can help the green ones fresh out of boot.. It also means a slow trickle of movement through the companies squads instead of wholesale numbers every 6-12 months or so.
This also means that scout bikers would be assigned new sergeants upon their advancement to stage 3 Edited March 23, 2011 by greatcrusade08

[Darkchild130]

I know its hard to see but try to see it from the perspective of the scout sergeants, they have 9 scouts under their command, for example 2 die in battle and a further 2 are advanced to stage 3, so he will take 4 replacements from the next batch of recruits fresh out of boot, other sergeants will take the numbers they need also.

What this means is a scout squad would be made up of scouts of differing skill levels, which is not a bad thing as the more experienced scouts can help the green ones fresh out of boot.. It also means a slow trickle of movement through the companies squads instead of wholesale numbers every 6-12 months or so.

This also means that scout bikers would be assigned new sergeants upon their advancement to stage 3

 

the BL book Purging of Kadillus has an excellent example of this. Sgt Naaman's squad contains members at all 3 stages of their transformation.

 

Nice article, I have always been a massive fan of scouts.

 

Darkchild

[greatcrusade08]

the BL book Purging of Kadillus has an excellent example of this. Sgt Naaman's squad contains members at all 3 stages of their transformation.

Really? ive just added that book to my 'to buy' list.. ive always like naaman, before Telion he was the only real face of the scout co. (even though he was DA) and the model was pretty nice.

 

Nice article, I have always been a massive fan of scouts.

Its weird how they grab hold isnt it :)

Edited March 23, 2011 by greatcrusade08

[Darkchild130]

Just be aware that the book is very dry, there are no Mcneil-esque Heroics or A-D-B style character development. It is a by the numbers account of a Chapter at war.

 

As a Soldier I absolutely loved it, but it's an aqcuired taste.

 

Darkchild

[captain sox]

Wow GC! This is amazing work! great research, great inspiration for me!

[arizonajirt]

Outstanding articles you have written. I am a huge fan of scouts and snipers (having been a sniper myself) and wanted to field a scout heavy unit if need be. now that I have read all of your articles, I have a good understanding of the Warhammer way of things.

[jaxjace]

naaman dies.

[space marine schnauzer]

Just be aware that the book is very dry, there are no Mcneil-esque Heroics or A-D-B style character development. It is a by the numbers account of a Chapter at war.

 

As a Soldier I absolutely loved it, but it's an aqcuired taste.

 

Darkchild

 

 

I also loved that book..esp the as you put it "by the numbers" account of the battle". Not a soldier by somebody who

likes reading military history..

[Marshal Rohr]

Snape kills Naaman

Edited August 26, 2011 by Marshal2 Crusaders

[Captain Antonius]

Greetings Brother,

 

First off, I must say that I really enjoy your insight into the world of the scout company. Good work there.

 

In the BL book Sons of Dorn, the prospective scouts are all introduced to the hypno cask very early on in thier training to give them all the knowledge of "Low Gothic". It is also used as a weeding out tool because if the neophyte can't accept the hypno training, then they will not accept the hypnotherapy that helps to develop the implants. I'm wondering if the scouts don't recieve regular hypno training / therapy while they progress through the training cycle.

[greatcrusade08]

Greetings Brother,

 

First off, I must say that I really enjoy your insight into the world of the scout company. Good work there.

 

In the BL book Sons of Dorn, the prospective scouts are all introduced to the hypno cask very early on in thier training to give them all the knowledge of "Low Gothic". It is also used as a weeding out tool because if the neophyte can't accept the hypno training, then they will not accept the hypnotherapy that helps to develop the implants. I'm wondering if the scouts don't recieve regular hypno training / therapy while they progress through the training cycle.

 

thanks captain Antonius, you raise an interesting point

 

indoctrination is very important to space marine development, ultramarines dont use a hypno cask, but all children are taken into academies and drilled from a very young age.. it all amounts to the same thing i guess... brainwashing <_<

its an important distinction to make, that most 'legion' chapters have thier own unique methods even though the basic premise and principles are the same.. the space wolves also use a form of 'hypno cask' that teaches them vast amounts (they are barbarians before selection), the blood angels use a sarchopagus as both a teaching device and as a way to 'develop' the marines physiologically (though i havent read the latest dex so this may be wrong)..

most later founded chapters either follow the tenets of thier parent chapters or they follow the written word of the codex astartes

[NeroTheApothecary]

Do you know much about Black Templar's, their neophytes, and specifics on their training processes? Or do you simply know about Codex based chapter scouts? Thought I'd ask because I really want more information on Black Templar neophytes. It seems like a very Father-Son Knight-Squire relationship.

[Rafen_2]

Snape kills Naaman

 

:tu:

 

Interesting article there. Never really liked scouts personally but this info is still a good read.

[Leonaides]

Greetings Brother,

 

First off, I must say that I really enjoy your insight into the world of the scout company. Good work there.

 

In the BL book Sons of Dorn, the prospective scouts are all introduced to the hypno cask very early on in thier training to give them all the knowledge of "Low Gothic". It is also used as a weeding out tool because if the neophyte can't accept the hypno training, then they will not accept the hypnotherapy that helps to develop the implants. I'm wondering if the scouts don't recieve regular hypno training / therapy while they progress through the training cycle.

 

thanks captain Antonius, you raise an interesting point

 

indoctrination is very important to space marine development, ultramarines dont use a hypno cask, but all children are taken into academies and drilled from a very young age.. it all amounts to the same thing i guess... brainwashing ;)

its an important distinction to make, that most 'legion' chapters have thier own unique methods even though the basic premise and principles are the same.. the space wolves also use a form of 'hypno cask' that teaches them vast amounts (they are barbarians before selection), the blood angels use a sarchopagus as both a teaching device and as a way to 'develop' the marines physiologically (though i havent read the latest dex so this may be wrong)..

most later founded chapters either follow the tenets of thier parent chapters or they follow the written word of the codex astartes

 

Are you sure that the Ultras dont use any form of hypno-cask? I do seem to remember that this hypnotherapy was also used to help the scouts adjust to their new implants - not just brainwashing but education techniques that they need to know quickly in order to use their implants to control other implants...

[Dosjetka]

Are you sure that the Ultras dont use any form of hypno-cask? I do seem to remember that this hypnotherapy was also used to help the scouts adjust to their new implants - not just brainwashing but education techniques that they need to know quickly in order to use their implants to control other implants...

Unless I'm much mistaken, the hypno-cask is vital for the correct functioning of certain Astartes organs, so I'm guessing that yes, they do use it, albeit it's use being more meager than for other Chapters.

 

A very interesting article you've got here GC08. Is there anything else you're thinking of adding to it?

 

Ludovic

[greatcrusade08]

Are you sure that the Ultras dont use any form of hypno-cask? I do seem to remember that this hypnotherapy was also used to help the scouts adjust to their new implants - not just brainwashing but education techniques that they need to know quickly in order to use their implants to control other implants...

 

its an interesting point, all scouts use a form of hypnotherapy for both indoctrination and to aid certain implants, but only certain chapters are noted as using a "hypno-cask".

im hesitant to say the hypnocask is the only form of hypnotherapy available without a direct quote to support this..

i am pretty certain the ultramarines dont require indoctrination in the same way as many backwater recruits do.

 

Do you know much about Black Templar's, their neophytes, and specifics on their training processes? Or do you simply know about Codex based chapter scouts? Thought I'd ask because I really want more information on Black Templar neophytes. It seems like a very Father-Son Knight-Squire relationship.

im afraid not, the BT forum here on the B&C is a great source of info, persoanlly my BT questions (should i ever need answers) would go to marshall wilhelm.

i do know they are considered about as non codex in terms of recruits as you can get, they dont have a scout (tenth) company, so all organisational and recrutiment standards wouldnt apply.

 

A very interesting article you've got here GC08. Is there anything else you're thinking of adding to it?

i got hold of the scouts index astartes article which shows a couple of thngs not covered (or guessed at) by myself, so there may be one or two more lines ill add at a later date, but it seems prety much finished IMO

Edited January 5, 2012 by greatcrusade08

[Leonaides]

Are you sure that the Ultras dont use any form of hypno-cask? I do seem to remember that this hypnotherapy was also used to help the scouts adjust to their new implants - not just brainwashing but education techniques that they need to know quickly in order to use their implants to control other implants...

 

its an interesting point, all scouts use a form of hypnotherapy for both indoctrination and to aid certain implants, but only certain chapters are noted as using a "hypno-cask".

im hesitant to say the hypnocask is the only form of hypnotherapy available without a direct quote to support this..

i am pretty certain the ultramarines dont require indoctrination in the same way as many backwater recruits do.

 

But I doubt a 12-14yr old Macraggian (?) youth nows substantially more how to field strip and reassemble a bolter (for example) than a Fenrisian youth... He may be more familair with the concept of gun, but as far as praticalities go, they're probably not far apart.

 

 

There's also the learning of new battle-languages and tactical situations. Why sit them down for hours of theory when a quick dunk in the machine can implant the knowledge straight into their minds for retrieval at a later date.

[greatcrusade08]

But I doubt a 12-14yr old Macraggian (?) youth nows substantially more how to field strip and reassemble a bolter (for example) than a Fenrisian youth... He may be more familair with the concept of gun, but as far as praticalities go, they're probably not far apart

 

There's also the learning of new battle-languages and tactical situations. Why sit them down for hours of theory when a quick dunk in the machine can implant the knowledge straight into their minds for retrieval at a later date.

 

to answer both points all youths in ultramar attend military academies from the age of 6, they will know far more than most, perhaps not with a bolter but with many other weapons.

the best of them are chosen to become space marines, others go to PDF and IG.

im not saying they dont use the hypno cask, what im saying is that without a quote to support it, its suppostion which cannot be neatly explained with this logic considering thier time within military academies

[Marshal Rohr]

Do you know much about Black Templar's, their neophytes, and specifics on their training processes? Or do you simply know about Codex based chapter scouts? Thought I'd ask because I really want more information on Black Templar neophytes. It seems like a very Father-Son Knight-Squire relationship.

 

More like a Sith Lord and Apprentice relationship.

[rickybob]

Just a quick point about recruitment rates.

 

In your article you mentioned that there would be two intakes per year as the "basic" training lasts six months. Wouldn't a Space Marine chapter have a rolling training cycle, with one intake every month or two, with several intakes (or "divisions" as we call them in the RAN) at different stages per year? Considering combat casualty rates, training failures and irreversible organ rejection, I would imagine the more recruits being trained at a time, the better.

 

I remember reading somewhere that chapter serfs are often recruits who failed some part of the training or implantation process. Come to think of it, I read it in the background section for the BFG SM rules.

[Sun Grilled Bacon]

Would Scout Sergeants ever become full Space Marines then? Or would they be permanently be Scouts? Sergeant Telion chose to stay in the Scout Company, so I would assume they would?

[greatcrusade08]

Would Scout Sergeants ever become full Space Marines then? Or would they be permanently be Scouts? Sergeant Telion chose to stay in the Scout Company, so I would assume they would?

 

i think youve got things the wrong way around.. scout sergeants are at the end of the career path, a marine must go through the standard paths before he can become a scout sergeant.

Telion for example has been a devestator marine, assault marine, tactical marine and has served in the first company.. all before he was promoted to scout sergeant.

he chooses to remain in this postion as opposed to being part of the chapters honour gaurd

Edited February 17, 2012 by greatcrusade08

[Sun Grilled Bacon]

ahhh... that makes a whole lot more sense...