Grimtooth Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 I have seen this topic come up several times and yet when I try to search for them, I can find them because of too short search terms, etc, etc. So with what we know of the Emperor's powers, it is not a far stretch to believe that he knew from the beginning that the HH was going to happen. I would even go as far to say that he also knew exactly how and what the result was going to be. Now, bringing up the literary device used in such movies as Constantine and Legion and relating them to the 40k universe, did the Emperor knowingly go into the HH accepting his death as a means of ensuring that the human race would survive? If we take the fluff of the Emperor being the smartest, wisest, most powerful psyker ever born or whatever, then we have to assume that he knows the exact nature of mankind. Not only mankind, but also all manner of the xenos that span the 40k universe. So based on that theory and the plot of the above films, the Emperor would take the stance that mankind only truly shines in the face of adversity. If we take the fall of the Eldar into account, a race that faced no adversity and was able to reach the pinnacle of civilizaion, artistically, technologically, and ultimately in their destruction, their decadence; we see what the Emperor may have based his grand design around. The Emperor raises and brings together mankind, via his Unity Wars and later on the Great Crusade, to the pinnacle of what they need to survive in the universe and then orchestrates the very conflict needed to ensure the human race is never left unchecked to fall like the Eldar, but to also truly shine and realize their potnetial via said conflict.. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted March 27, 2011 Share Posted March 27, 2011 In the old fluff from Realm of Chaos, it was made clear that his foresight failed him in the lead up to the HH, and particularly immediately before he teleported onto Horus' barge. Lots of that has been updated obviously. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Cargo Ogryn Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 In the old fluff from Realm of Chaos, it was made clear that his foresight failed him in the lead up to the HH, and particularly immediately before he teleported onto Horus' barge. Lots of that has been updated obviously. Agreed, most of the "revelations" of this series are written in a way that show Him as complicit in creating the whole mess that spilled out. Rather than "foresight failing" . Most of the stories are written from the POV of Chaos, and put the Emperor in a dubious light. His "Deal" with Chaos to create the Primarchs, His being present at the collapse of the Geller field that allowed the scattering of them, His plan to trap Magnus on the Throne. I can't help wondering if this isn't just the usual bias shown for Chaos by the writers / designers, though I hope that it's leading up to some explanation later in the series (Chaos lies and propoganda, successfully told to corrupt the Chapters to Chaos). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Cargo Ogryn Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have seen this topic come up several times and yet when I try to search for them, I can find them because of too short search terms, etc, etc. So with what we know of the Emperor's powers, it is not a far stretch to believe that he knew from the beginning that the HH was going to happen. I would even go as far to say that he also knew exactly how and what the result was going to be. Now, bringing up the literary device used in such movies as Constantine and Legion and relating them to the 40k universe, did the Emperor knowingly go into the HH accepting his death as a means of ensuring that the human race would survive? If we take the fluff of the Emperor being the smartest, wisest, most powerful psyker ever born or whatever, then we have to assume that he knows the exact nature of mankind. Not only mankind, but also all manner of the xenos that span the 40k universe. So based on that theory and the plot of the above films, the Emperor would take the stance that mankind only truly shines in the face of adversity. If we take the fall of the Eldar into account, a race that faced no adversity and was able to reach the pinnacle of civilizaion, artistically, technologically, and ultimately in their destruction, their decadence; we see what the Emperor may have based his grand design around. The Emperor raises and brings together mankind, via his Unity Wars and later on the Great Crusade, to the pinnacle of what they need to survive in the universe and then orchestrates the very conflict needed to ensure the human race is never left unchecked to fall like the Eldar, but to also truly shine and realize their potnetial via said conflict.. Thoughts? Not just from fantasy literature either. Every Human Society so far on the planet has struggled for Dominance, however once they achieve a measure of Dominance and Stability, the inheritors of that legacy grow fat lazy and complacent and give it away. The Etruscans are a prime example, The Romans and the British are probably the best known. So yes, I agree with your point that this could explain His actions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have come to believe that he didn't intentionallly orchestrate the horus heresey fluff points like him not being able to use his future sight aside the dude didn't know his own name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DarKnight Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have come to believe that he didn't intentionallly orchestrate the horus heresey fluff points like him not being able to use his future sight aside the dude didn't know his own name. He probably did know his own name but goes by the Emperor on purpose. In Prospero Burns, it is shown that daemons can take control of people by knowing their names. As far as the question, I am of the opinion that the Emperor knew beforehand everything that would transpire and that all the events of the Heresy part of a larger strategy. I dont have anything to back that POV up, just more like wishful thinking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morollan Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Most of the stories are written from the POV of Chaos, and put the Emperor in a dubious light. His "Deal" with Chaos to create the Primarchs, His being present at the collapse of the Geller field that allowed the scattering of them, His plan to trap Magnus on the Throne. I'm not sure that this is entirely fair. From what I recall of A Thousand Sons, Magnus was going to be given the job of powering the Golden Throne as a reward and Magnus despaired when he realised that it would not now happen because of him accidentally, brutally kicking the granny out of the webway whilst engaged in a forbidden ritual and powered by an ancient, evil god. Gutted! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lee265 Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 I have come to believe that he didn't intentionallly orchestrate the horus heresey fluff points like him not being able to use his future sight aside the dude didn't know his own name. He probably did know his own name but goes by the Emperor on purpose. In Prospero Burns, it is shown that daemons can take control of people by knowing their names. As far as the question, I am of the opinion that the Emperor knew beforehand everything that would transpire and that all the events of the Heresy part of a larger strategy. I dont have anything to back that POV up, just more like wishful thinking. I was trying to illistrate just how far removed he is from humanity in general. He has No name not even a made up one. So once he lost the future sight he seemed to loose any ability to communicate with anyone and just withdrew. So far from a masterstroke plan he just screwed up. I used to think it was intentional like Picasso. now I feel its more like a four year old flinging paint blindly. only my 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Eldrad Ulthran knew, Konrad Curze knew, Magnus knew, Lorgar knew, Cabal knew, that rune priest in Prospero Burns knew; it was impossible for the Emperor (the most powerful psychic in the galaxy) not to see the coming of the Heresy. I think the main reason for the Emperor's stubbornness on the secret project was his intention to destroy the Chaos before the Heresy claims the lives and loyalties of his sons. But thanks to Magnus, he failed dramatically. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellios Posted March 29, 2011 Share Posted March 29, 2011 Eldrad Ulthran knew, Konrad Curze knew, Magnus knew, Lorgar knew, Cabal knew, that rune priest in Prospero Burns knew; it was impossible for the Emperor (the most powerful psychic in the galaxy) not to see the coming of the Heresy. I think the main reason for the Emperor's stubbornness on the secret project was his intention to destroy the Chaos before the Heresy claims the lives and loyalties of his sons. But thanks to Magnus, he failed dramatically. By the time Magnus did that some of his sons had already fallen. Also it isn't just a matter of power but also a matter of skill (which no doubt the Emperor had) but even if the Emperor is more powerful than Ulthran (which would seem more than fair based on the background) he isn't automatically a better seer than Ulthran, although the Emperor no doub tis far stronger in other areas... Ulthran has never been mentioned to be an outstanding battle psyker for example. Even then Ulthrans seeing wasn't 100% perfect (he hadn't seen Fulgrim start his falling or at least that it hadn't started yet)... Kurze from how his visions have been described only had a brief image of what would happen it wasn't anything in depth... like watching a battle through the fog... you can make out the combatants but not their uniforms... Magnus was being played and the warp gods wanted the wards broken... the chaos gods and their daemons (who magnus consulted with) may well have shown him what was going to happen (accurate or not...) rather than it being due to his gifts. The Cabal knew... but it included the most powerful psychic race in its numbers and no doubt had access to xenos technology that helped them with their visions... and they had a lot of people (well it wasn't just one guy on his own...) and yet... even so it would seem that despite their abillity to look along the strands of fate things didn't go as they said it would (although it may have been a trick)... What I'm saying is that it isn't always easy to read the fates even if you are skilled... it is part luck and I've always imagined that it is like opening a safe... sure you can try and blow it up and on lesser safes that might work... but on the top safes... the hardest paths to read... it is a skill to find and follow and work out which one will come to passs and it can be the smallest action that changes it... maybe the emperor had a vision of the heresy at one point but decide it wasn't going to happen... I can't say. Oh and the flipside of maybe the Emperor did this as he knew it was the only way for man to survive... maybe the chaos gods wanted a 'draw'... I say draw because they 'lose' but leave the Imperium crippled... but that might be what they wanted... especially a god like Tzeentch. They say if Chaos had won it would have destroyed itself like a fire burning out of control until it has no fuel left... which would not be good for chaos... and if the emperor had won he might have been able to crush chaos once and for all... but this way with a stalemate... the constant war and the hate that causes fuels khorne... the death and the despair... the wish for release fuels nurgle... the hope and the schemeing by various factions trying to get the upper hand on each other fuels Tzeentch... and slaanesh finds a way... I guess :huh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 My belief is that the Emperor did know and may have even given the Heresy a helping hand. Now i see a lot of people who defend the Emperor quite fiercly that he could not be so sinister. I believe that these actions are not evil at all (they are a bit mean to the Primarchs), but the Emperors goal was to aid mankind and not 21 super-sons. The Emperor may have gone to extraudinery lengths to saving mankind, he may have sacrificed himself, billions of humans and his own sons just to ensure that Humans would one day be the only force left in the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zedmark Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It is my stern belief that the Emperor knew entirely about the HH and that He allowed the creation of the Eye of Terror and the corruption of the Legions. The Emperor wanted an "Imperium of MAN" not an "Imperium of the Emperor", He wanted a galaxy of rationality rather than a galaxy of mindless religion. As the Eldar have so nicely demonstrated, an empire built upon the foundations of religion shall never succeed and thrive, and now the Eldar sit quietly in a corner in artificial craftworlds brooding about their failure rather than doing something about it. I suppose that if the Emperor continued to walk among men, Man would still see the Emperor as a God and would thus give up all reason to trade it for mindless faith. The Emperor wanted them to think rationally, and the only way to do that was to eliminate Himself from the formula. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron Lord Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 It is my stern belief that the Emperor knew entirely about the HH and that He allowed the creation of the Eye of Terror and the corruption of the Legions. Given that the Eye of Terror was created by the fall of the Eldar- and that for 4 thousand years before that, warp storms had cut off the planets from each other, the Emperor was hardly in much of a position to stop the creation of the Eye of Terror. The Fall of the eldar had less to do with their worship of their deities- and more to do with decadence and sensation-seeking that created a new Chaos deity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razhbad Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 Hmm are you aware that the Eldar especialy around the time of the fall take a very different view on religeon. For example Eldar do not go on religeous wars nor do they do great purges of heretics within their own society. Eldar have a much different take on God Worship and do not have any priests, now with most of their gods being dead this is very unique now as far as back story goes with the Eldar there is no information to say they have been different with their gods other then before the fall and during it much of the Eldar had turned their back on religeon in fact they were worshipping their own desires and emotions and the Eldar gods had become forgotten, it was for this reason that the Eldar Gods died when Slaanesh was born. Also not worshipping Gods is not always a good thing. Take the Dark Age of Technology with mankind, our race nearly drove ourselves to destruction due to worshipping Science instead of Gods, it was only due to the Age of Strife that this changed. Edit: Damn Iron Lord beat me to it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grimtooth Posted March 30, 2011 Author Share Posted March 30, 2011 Interesting to see that there is the possibility of intelligent design in the Heresy and the further survival of mankind within the galaxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bewlay Posted March 30, 2011 Share Posted March 30, 2011 I've always liked the idea of the Emperor knowing once the majority of the Primarch's had been found. He had began to see that humanity didn't need such creations and that his 'sons' were far too powerful to still remain any human characteristics (as far as emotions are concerned). So, rather selfishly he did all that he could to turn at least half to Chaos, being the Emperor he knew that the fickel forces of Chaos would soon discard the Primarch's and humanity will remain in the difficult situation of trieing to conquer the galaxy. But what went wrong, well most the loyalist Primarch died. Plus the Emperor didn't come to terms of how powerful Chaos was with so much enforced emotions of Horus, and as a result the Emperor (being human remember) decided to sacrifice himself while killing Horus, the traitors would be without a leader while the Imperium would crush them. But that didn't happen, due to complications the greatest hero, of the greatest legion didn't die and as a result, like his gene father Horus, Abbadon united the Chaos armies as a force to be reckoned with. So I believe that the Emperor, due to the heat of the moment, didn't realize and made an attempt to fix it. It is unseen whether it worked or not, but as a human the Emperor is still not flawless. So the HH wasn't because of his bad parenting but because of a rushed decision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Idaho Posted March 31, 2011 Share Posted March 31, 2011 I'm gona have to shoot that last one down in flames. Ignoring that the Emperor was out to defeat Chaos rather than use it to do his dirty work and understood Chaos better than any human, you have some glaring plot holes to wade through: The idea the Emperor was concerned over his Primarches being too powerful so he turned half of them against him is flawed since the Loyalist Primarches died. If that is possible then that means he could have just "let" the others die too... It ignores the whole machinations of Lorgar, Erebus and the Chaos Gods. The Emperor wasn't around throughout the corruption of Horus or the Heresy. Why is 18 Primarches a danger but 9 not? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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