How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[DarkGuard]

Hi all. I have no doubt that our brothers over in the Inquisition forum are going crazy over the new Grey Knights Codex. And who can blame them? They've waited a long time for this, and it initially looks like the waiting has paid out, with lovely models and a good Codex to boot. Unfortunately, it is at about this time that those of us who have the bought the Codex but are not defecting to the Ordo Malleus have to start coming up with new strategies and ways to kill them. So what follows is what I've gleaned from the first day of having the Codex, and what I feel will be problem areas that we need to look out for. I encourage all to engage in a tactical debate about this new threat, so that your army isn't quite overrun and massacred the first time you run into them.

 

What strikes me when first looking into the Codex is that it is psyker heavy, in every sense of the word. Nearly every unit in the Codex is a pysker and has a psychic power which augments their role. I'm sure people have already heard of the Purgation squad's Astral Aim making them shoot similar to Hive Guard, or the widespread power Hammerhand which increases the strength of the unit. These powers make the Grey Knights more powerful than they first seem, and used well can be prove to be deadly.

 

Of course, the best course of action would be to take a Librarian or equivalent, but the Grey Knights have an answer to this, with many powers and weapons which are specifically designed to make a psyker's life on the battlefield even more miserable. The Aegis makes it harder for the psyker to get off direct powers, while the Grey Knights can even include their own psychic hood to help block out powers that get through. Many weapons also force enemy psykers into Perils tests or even cause instant death if they fail a test. Their Aegis can also be bolstered by Dreadnoughts, which can properly shut down enemy psychic powers.

 

That being said, I still feel that Libbys will be a good choice for fighting Grey Knights. In this instance we're paying 100pts for the psychic hood that may keep out a few of those nasty psychic powers. Keep the Libby protected, preferably in a transport, and in the middle of the board to give a wide coverage with his psychic hood, and things should be fine.

 

Next on my list of things to look out for are their Troops choices. Grey Knights players have two choices initially, Grey Knight Strike squads, which come in at just 10pts more than a Tactical squad, and Grey Knight Terminator squads which are the same points as our Terminators. Focussing on these choices, it would appear that Terminators are the main unit in the Troops choices, with Strike squads being considered back up, rather than the other way around. Reason I say this is because of what those Terminators can do. First, their close combat upgrades are cheaper, and their special weapons don't force them to relinquish their combat weapons. The main thing I'm worried about at the moment is the combination of Nemesis force halberds and Hammerhand in combat. Nemesis force halberds let them strike at I6, and the fact that they're two handed is negligible as their other weapon is a storm bolter. Hammerhand makes up for the loss of a Nemesis force sword by making them S5. So we have a unit of Terminators potentially striking at S5 I6, plus shooting. I know what you're thinking, hide in cover! Thing is, you can't, as these guys get assault grenades the same as their power armoured brothers. And the halberds are free. Nasty, nasty nasty. I suppose we should be fortunate that they need a Land Raider for transport and can't assault after Deep Striking, but at 24" range they can also be nasty, considering that Relentless lets them fire psycannons as heavy 4 weapons. All in all, this unit can be a nasty combat unit that still packs a ranged punch. As usual against Terminators, use plasma, Vindicators, weight of fire etc, especially as they can't take storm shields.

 

Speaking of psycannons, them and the incinerator are now higher strength, probably to counter the fact that they lose the ability to ignore invulnerable saves. Unfortunately for us, this is bad. We didn't have to worry about invulnerable save ignoring as the weapon's AP was normally bad enough to give us our armour saves. Now instead they can simply force more wounds on us, leading to more failed saves.

 

Now onto Purifier's, their Veteran squad. Sort of a mix between Sternguard and Vanguard, in that they can do assault but also do shooting. However, most people should arm them for one, not both. They are initially cheaper than Sternguard, but with upgrades they can become a little bit more expensive. However, the SC Crowe makes them Troops, not scoring, unlike Pedro, so be prepared to face a unit of these with 4 heavies camping on an objective or two as they have Combat Squads. But, like Sternguard they die as easily as their lesser experienced brethren, so become somewhat more of a glass cannon.

 

Quick mention about vehicles, stun lock is unlikely to work here guys, so I'd recommend trying to blow them up or immobilize them if they're a transport. Of more concern are Dreadnoughts, which will inevitably have long-ranged weapons, bolster their Aegis power, and can keep on shooting through all those stunned and shaken results if they pass their psychic test.

 

Finally, a quick mention about Dreadknights, as I daresay we'll see a lot of these things. While they look cheap as first, a proper kitted out Dreadknight will cost a lot of points, 200pts or more, so will be a sizeable investment. I would love to say that we should approach them the same way we approach Nid MCs, but unfortunately that 2+/5++ save makes it difficult. So krak missiles out, and plasma, melta and lascannons will be the preferred methods. Squad wise, Hammernators should be fine against them, with they're rock hard save and ability to knock wounds off quickly, while Sternguard hellfire rounds will be worth looking at for forcing failed saves.

 

All in all, it looks like a decent enough Codex, with a definite view towards frontline action, shown by basic troops being good in combat and able to deep strike without help. However, with the right upgrades they aren't too bad at ranged warfare. There is a huge variety and I think we can see many viable lists, with some being traditional mech spam, others utilising the Grey Knight's inherent ability to deep strike nearly everything, while others will load up on the hard to kill stuff. Just a quick word, in that I don't fear Paladin spam lists. These guys are pricy, and so are Dreadknights, and with the right tools the lack of models will hurt them. However, point for point standard Strike squads in Rhinos and Dreads aren't too much more expensive, and are much better in combat while being able to take two specials and keep moving. With points being similar they won't outnumber us by much, and so it's the power armoured army I'm more worried about. I'd much rather go against 15 Terminators I can kill instantly with a demo cannon than 30ish power armoured guys in stun resistant transports.

 

Anyway, please guys add your own thoughts and ideas on how to take out these guys. What units are you concerned about? Where do you think their weak links are? What's the best counter to 'x' unit? Together we can send the Grey Knights back to Titan!

[Xeonic]

I think I'll find the points to sub plasma guns for flamers in my chaos marines to counter all the potential 2+ saves we'll start seeing. My ultras already have enough plasma cannon models to go around, though I might field combi preds or even annihilators rather than my typical typhoons to bolster my AP2 fire(and gain resilience to S8). Not that krak missiles will go awry as rhinos and razors will still be prevalent, as well as T4 models with 3+ saves.

 

The #1 thing that I'm worried about is those S8 riflemen dread being ludicrously good at demeching every model I habitually field(I generally don't use land raiders, so...).

[Corby]

You pretty much hit the nail on the head Darkguard

 

Dedicated Assault units will still outclass grey knight units in combat. (Assault Terminators in particular I'm talking about here). The volume of S7 and S8 fire that a grey knight army can now spit out is quite frighting with should make them a serious competitor against guard and other razorback armies , coupled with durable Scoring units and the ability to do a decent style Msu list with vehicles that can ignore suppression means focusing fire a lot more heavily on each vehicle in the hope to wipe out an enemy vehicle instead of taking the risk of the vehicle passing a psyker test the following turn and being able to maintain fire again. The sad thing is , despite all the new grey knight bling , their standard tournament build is begining to look like Razorback spam with rifleman dreadnoughts , so nothing new here.

 

Their weaknesses will be the same as all Codex marine variations. And shouldn't require much tweaking of balanced tournament lists , except a librarian or some form of psyker defence will be mandatory ( if you're not running one already that is).

[TyrionTheImp]

Psyfleman Dreads are amazing sounding, and with Fortitude on all vehicles it's going to be tough to stop them from shooting, same with Razorbacks, it's only 50 points for a Razorback with TL Heavy Bolters and Psybolts a very inexpensive but extremely annoying unit, especially with Strike squads inside with a psycannon. Some people say Assault Cannons are the way to go, but the cost isn't worth it imho, and they don't have Fast vehicles so they can't pull it off like Blood Angels could, and some faster armies, Dark Eldar, etc, could run away from Assault Cannon razorbacks if need be.

 

I expect to see very basic lists using MSU, as the more bling you give them the more expensive they become, and frankly having everyone have storm bolters, power weapons, and psyker powers is enough.

 

Probably their biggest weakness is a lack of melta though, only inquisitorial henchmen can take them, this means they'll probably struggle against Land Raiders, but the amount of Str 8 and 7 shots they can bring really doesn't deter them from blowing up AV11 and 12 Transports with ease.

 

Probably one of their more unique aspects is their ability to manipulate reserves effectively, and to great effect. With Assassins, and numerous deep striking squads they can quite easily make things happen when they want them to far better than most other armies, I'd expect to see some odd reserve tactics at some point.

 

I'd expect to see more Inquisitor HQ's than actual GK HQ's though. The inquisitor options are interesting and you can outfit them for a modest price to perform things that otherwise can't really be done. It's not like GK's NEED more CC ability anyways, and most of the actual GK HQ's are expensive. Plus they unlock henchmen warbands that have some very interesting options, including bringing melta.

 

Paladins I'd say are the biggest waste of points in the codex, they're only T4, and they can't get Storm Shields. If you see them on the board, shoot Lascannons at them, or melta them, they'll die easy.

 

 

All in all, I'm not terribly worried about them, they have some neat tricks, but for the most part the scariest part are the simple things. I'm sure there will be a lot of lists coming out with some interesting things, but the Codex doesn't seem as straightforward as say Space Wolves, and it may take a bit for people to really find the really juicy bits.

[DarkGuard]

@ Xeonic and TyrionTheImp: I must admit, I completely overlooked the Psyfleman Dread, at 10pts more than a Rifleman I can see these being a staple in any army. To be honest, I'd imagine they would be better than Dreadknights in most lists. They bring something the Dreadknight doesn't, which is long-ranged anti-tank, perfect for all those mech armies out there (like mine). The roles of a Dreadknight can be filled in elsewhere, like Terminator squads.

 

@ Corby: You are correct in that our traditional assault specialists, especially Hammernators, will be fine against Grey Knights. However, what we must remember is that pretty much every Grey Knight unit is solid in assault. Their basic troops can quite clearly out-assault our basic troops, and this is where it'll hurt. They can have many dedicated assault units all over your army, but chances are you've only got one Hammernator unit that can only be in one place at once. In the end, we're going to have to try and outshoot them.

 

Overall, there doesn't seem to be anything too ground breaking in the Codex, units like Paladins and Dreadknights being priced reasonably. However, there are tricks that should be watched out for. As has been said Inquisitors are cheap and are a way for Grey Knights players to stick meltas in their list. With the lack of meltas it would seem that Land Raider spam will be the way to go, but I'd watch out for psycannon spam, especially on Terminators, where a full squad can have 8 S7 Rending shots, enough to mess up any tank. Furthermore, the Vindicare I believe will be looking to pen Land Raiders most of the time with his turbo-penetrator round.

 

More on the Vindicare actually, I have a feeling this could be one of the nasty tricks in the Grey Knights Codex. Sure the Cullexus or Callidus appears to be more destructive, but the Vindicare has the ability to change an entire game with one shot. Power fist threatening that Dreadknight? Easy, it's dead now. Meltagun by the Land Raider? Not anymore. Lysander about to charge into some Terminators? He's not so hard now without his invulnerable save. Pesky Libby with his psychic hood annoying you? One shot, one kill. I know I'll be prioritising Vindicares on the battlefield, or at least giving them bad targets to shoot at.

 

As TyrionTheImp has said they may look to control Reserves, a somewhat recurring theme recently what with Tyranid Hive Commanders and Guard advisers. With their Grand Masters and Brother-Captains coming Psychic Communion, a power that lets them add or subtract one from Reserve rolls we can expect Grey Knights to play the Reserve game very well, controlling when and where their forces come into play. With so many units Deep Striking it's also likely that one may wish to use Servo Skulls, which lets you put up to 3 tokens on the battlefield. In addition to pushing back enemy infiltrators and scouts, they also make nearby Deep Striking and scattering blast weapons more accurate, and canny use of these items of wargear, in addition to Psychic Communion can see an entire Grey Knight army land where they're needed most.

 

Therefore, we'll have to make sure we're mobile to counter these threats as they come down, but then again, we are all meched up aren't we? :)

[TyrionTheImp]

Concerning Servo Skulls, you can bring up to 3 per HQ that can take them. I'd be particularly worried about Ordo Xeno Inquisitors with Conversion Beamers and servo skulls. Bombing you across the board with Str 10 AP 1 Blasts that only scatter half distance are mighty scary. Of course, they can't be put on bikes, but they don't necessarily need to move much do they?

 

Also, Hammernators save will only be a 4++ in close combat with Nemesis Force swords, it's not terrible, but they aren't as sturdy against GK's as against other armies.

[maturin]

Great topic, Darkguard. The Grey Knights are out in force - I played in a tourney today with 3-4 GK armies out of 30, whereas before I think there was only 1 or 2 consistent GK players in the area. Got to face the new codex for the first time, too.

 

Overall I think we should keep in mind that while the Grey Knights have a LOT of very cool new toys, everything in the codex (barring henchmen perhaps) is very expensive. So you won't have to worry about facing teleporting dreadknights AND psidreads AND 10-man psycannon toting termies AND razorback spam - your opponent will run out of points very, very quickly. I think because of this GK's will have a harder time coming up with a "balanced" list than regular SM's, and their lists will probably lack redundancy (relative to SM's). For instance, the vaunted Psydread (or psyfleman) will be a scary unit. But they're still only AV12 - take them out early. And once you've done that your opponent has lost his ranged support.

 

None of the infantry in GK codex is any more survivable to shooting than regular space marines, so as Darkguard pointed out the key is to out-shoot the GK's. This is easier than it sounds, as the new psycannons and psilencers are only range 24" (previously 36"). Their best invulnerable save to shooting is 5++. They have no low-AP weapons (outside of henchmen or dreads), and their psychic powers are all CC-oriented or close-range shooting only. For this reason I don't think librarians are a "requirement" for any list, unless you're planning on slugging it out with GK's in hand-to-hand combat. That's probably a bad idea, as the GK units are all fairly solid in close combat.

 

But even here a judicious charge or two can win the day. Dreads can tarpit GK infantry and prevent shooting, especially if your opponent has relatively few thunderhammers. The new knights are only WS4 now, and their weapons no longer grant an automatic strength bonus.

 

Servo skulls only grant reduced scatter if the blast is within 12" of them. And the skulls self-destruct if you get within 6" of them. Not too scary after all, I think. They will interfere with my scouts, darn it.

 

@Tyrion - not sure why Hammernators only save on 4++ - Nemesis Force weapons don't modify their target's invulnerable saves at all. Hammernators should still get 2+/3++.

 

 

As far as what units we should take - close range speeders are probably a worse choice now, as psybolt ammo makes storm bolters Str 5. Typhoons will be even more popular as a result, I think.

 

In the long run, Grey Knights are another Marine army, albeit with very nifty toys. Same principles apply as before - shoot the choppy, chop the shooty, know your opponent's codex and capabilities, and you'll be fine.

 

EDIT: because I'm tired. :cuss

[TyrionTheImp]

Nemesis Force Swords special rule renders the invulnerable save as one worse than normal. Each Nemesis force weapon has a different ability, Halberds for instance grant +2I, this is in addition to them being Force Weapons. All Grey Knights come with Nemesis Force Swords as standard, others may be purchased (or in some cases traded for) for practically every model, leading to some very diverse close combat capabilities.

 

Grey Knights tend to excel in the 24" range, this is bad for Codex Marines because we tend to operate in similar range bands, usually 24" and closer, problem is GK's can outshoot you with higher strength and more weapons than we can bring, and then assault you with their force weapons and Hammerhand.

 

Dreadnoughts do seem to be GREAT against GK's though, I'm talking the regular kind with DCCWs. Why? Well, no melta, no melta bombs, and their squads are small. Unless they pack a Daemon Hammer in their squads they're basically screwed. I think GK's will struggle with higher AV's anyways, the only viable solution is really Melta from Inq. Henchmen, or Hammerhand with Daemon Hammers (Gives Strength 10). Of course, since they can murder your lower AV vehicles and slaughter swaths of infantry under masses of Psybolt enhanced weapons, this might not be a big deal to them.

[maturin]

Errr - in my codex, the Nemesis Force Swords increase the bearer's invul by +1, if they have one, against close combat attacks. That's it - does nothing to an opponent's invul save.

 

I agree with you that dreadnoughts are great, and ironclads will probably be even better.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Yes:

The Nemesis force sword increases the bearer's invulnerable save by +1 against close combat attacks. If the bearer has no invulnerable save, there is no effect.

[DarkGuard]

The one problem I can see with using normal Dreads with DCCW is that a Grey Knight player is likely to have at least one Daemon hammer in each squad, and why not? Double strength at your normal initiative, why not? And not to mention that Hammerhand adds to strength before it is doubled, resulting in a model striking at S10 at I4 against your AV12/AV13 Dread. And if that model is a Justicar he can master-craft it, all for less points than a power fist.

 

However, high armour will be a problem for them unless they take Henchman, but I don't fancy the chances of light mech lists like Razorspam if they're taking Psyfleman Dreads and even psycannons.

 

I must admit that I misread the description on Nemesis force swords, which is good, as they are basically a force sword for the power armoured guys who have to pay to get that +2I or extra attack if they want it. This would be why the force halberd is free in Terminator squads, given that it's a trade off for the player between striking first or being more durable. That being said, I still think we'll see a few units with lots of force halberds making good use of the Hammerhand power.

 

I can also see Grey Knights playing wound allocation games rather well, what with the vast amount of weapon upgrades, including the Nemesis warding stave. Of course, such wound allocation games will work best in combat where they get their improved invulnerables, to shooting they won't be as good, but can still be annoying.

 

I think we must also consider the effects on other armies which could effect us. For example, if they haven't already chances are Eldar players will be making sure they have Runes of Warding, which of course impacts on our powers. Tyranids I imagine will take less MCs and more hordes because of the large amount of ID weapons to psykers and models in general. I think we have to take all of this into account, as the Grey Knights may force some changes even if we don't need to change against them.

 

@maturin, you make a good point about the libby maybe not being essential. The vast majority of Grey Knight players are in combat and we shouldn't be in there. Maybe a Captain would be better for counter-attacking?

[Hellios]

The one problem I can see with using normal Dreads with DCCW is that a Grey Knight player is likely to have at least one Daemon hammer in each squad, and why not? Double strength at your normal initiative, why not? And not to mention that Hammerhand adds to strength before it is doubled, resulting in a model striking at S10 at I4 against your AV12/AV13 Dread. And if that model is a Justicar he can master-craft it, all for less points than a power fist.

 

Errrm I might be missing something but isn't it only NDKs that strike in I order while using the NDH.

[maturin]

@Hellios You're right. NDH in squads are just TH's, so dreads are better off (by a teeny little bit - you still have to eat through the squad). Against 1 hammer a dread still has a decent chance of living - assume the GK player has 2 attacks, only 1 hits, and still has to roll 3+ to pen, and 5+ to destroy the dread.

 

@Darkguard I actually think we might see the return of an old favorite HQ - the Chaplain! Specifically, Chaplain Cassius. Why, you ask?

 

1) The captain's I5 is wasted against I6 halberds.

 

2) The captain's 3 wounds are wasted against force weapons.

 

3) The chaplain's WS5 is just as good as the captain's WS6 against WS4 GK's.

 

4) The chaplain buffs the rest of the unit whereas the captain does not, and if you place the chappie in a decent counter-assault unit (VV vets, assault marines) you stand a very good chance of taking on a GK unit sucessfully, even after taking force weapon wounds.

 

5) A librarian has no invul. saves standard, whereas a base chaplain has the same 3+/4++ save as a base captain.

 

6) Cassius is just icing on the cake as his T6 makes even hammerhand-buffed GK's struggle to wound him.

[DarkGuard]

The one problem I can see with using normal Dreads with DCCW is that a Grey Knight player is likely to have at least one Daemon hammer in each squad, and why not? Double strength at your normal initiative, why not? And not to mention that Hammerhand adds to strength before it is doubled, resulting in a model striking at S10 at I4 against your AV12/AV13 Dread. And if that model is a Justicar he can master-craft it, all for less points than a power fist.

 

Errrm I might be missing something but isn't it only NDKs that strike in I order while using the NDH.

 

My bad, I did read it like that first then my brain jumped or something and I started to see it as all Daemon hammers are like that, how embarrassing :).

 

@maturin, you could be right there in regards to the Chaplain making something of a comeback. Of course, the one big concern is that you are then leaving your army at the mercy of all those psykers, and while most of the powers that they hold are combat based (Hammerhand, Cleansing Flame etc), you won't be able to prevent them using more subtle powers, like the Libby's Summoning and Sanctuary powers, or Psychic Communion, Warp Quake etc, powers that support the Grey Knights or else control the battle in different ways. I think therefore it will be close as to what would be preferred, the Chaplain for aiding our combat units while not being affected by the vast array of anti-psyker weaponary that they have, or the Libby for the psychic hood to try and limit some of the Grey Knight's psychic dominance.

 

I've also been looking at the Assassins, and while the Vindicare has some fancy new rules and the Eversor still seems to be a combat monster, it's the Callidus I'm most scared of. The ability to appear next to any of your units is bad enough, but add in the ability to take out a load of guys with D6 S4 AP2 hits, while chucking a close combat character down there as well is that nice. Remember that that C'tan phase sword causes instant death and with a high WS and initiative, I can see your point about Captain's not being as preferred.

 

The interesting thing as that the Grey Knights obviously have some very "in your face" choices that look and sound cool, and could well be effective. However, we need to be careful about the lesser known and spoke of choices, like the new Assassins and the Henchman squads. Will be an interesting few weeks when I get back to my LGS, apparently everyone down there is building Grey Knight armies and I can't wait to go and play them.

[Brother Valerius]

I think GK's will struggle with higher AV's anyways, the only viable solution is really Melta from Inq. Henchmen, or Hammerhand with Daemon Hammers (Gives Strength 10).

 

I can see a couple of other options. Vindicare assassins are spendy for a one-man unit which will attract attention, but they can pop AV14 with no effort whatsoever from 36" (S3+4D6+rending, AP1). A Dreadknight with two doomfists might also be an interesting way to cope with AV14... again, spendy, but if it survives it's pretty much guaranteed to get the job done with 4 attacks at S10+2D6.

[Shadowstalker Grim]

Well I suppose there is a slight weakness now to the GK army, they are no longer metal models, so should be easier to remove permanently.... >.>

 

jokes aside, it seems like they have some nasty new powers, though in some ways I find this good as they didnt seem as viable as an army choice before. I'm assuming that although points are similar to our own troops, that'll add up and mean a few less bodies on the field than vanilla marines (kind of like BA aand such then)

 

 

As for HQs, it seems that a lot of people take a libby just for the psychic defence, or for being a cheap HQ rather than what he can actually bring. With all this Pychic power it'll probably neccessitate some libby prescence just to shrug off some of the stuff being chucked at you, even if you still take the worst.

 

Its the one thing that strikes me as, irritating?, about psychics. That it becomes a tool that an enemy army has to bring in order to make sure they have some form of counter, sort of mutual psychic destruction....rather than just a straightforward choice...

 

though i'd certainly like it if chaplains became more viable!

 

A good topic DarkGuard, some excellent points brought up! I'll have to update my 101 now that theres some fresh info on these lads!

[TyrionTheImp]

Wow I totally misread that thing about the Nemesis Force Swords, herp derp!

 

As for Daemon Hammers in every unit they cost 10 points, and yeah, only Dreadknights hit at I with them. Sure, they're only 10 points, but stack it up over multiple squads it does become costly.

 

Assassins are an interesting choice, I'm rather tempted to bring one myself, but they are only one model that takes up an elite slot.

 

Something not mentioned yet is the shunt moves. Personal Teleporters get a once per game 30" move (in addition to being able to move as Jump Infantry), this is only available to Interceptor Squads and Dreadknights.While neither of these are scoring it is possible for last minute objective contesting.

[maturin]

Darkguard brings up another good point - in this edition, GK's are now both anti-Daemon and anti-psyker. A lot of their special rules affect Daemons and psykers equally well. If your opponent gets your librarian into CC he won't last long, even with TDA armor. Shutting down hammerhand (which will be the psychic power you most often see, as pretty much all the squads have it) is nice, but I'm not sure it's worth taking an HQ based on solely that idea. Especially when the enemy army is especially kitted out to kill psykers.

 

One potential is to have both a librarian and a chaplain working together. The librarian stays behind the lines a bit while the chappie takes a squad and goes to wreck shop. They can protect each other from the worst of the enemy's power. I suppose this could work without the chaplain, but it's nice to have something that really focus' the enemy's attention away from the librarian.

 

There are a lot of scary units in the GK codex. Ok, pretty much everything is scary. Even henchmen squads can be shoot/choppy scary. (I'm planning a radical GK army with no GK's). So expect to take a lot of casualties. But if you hit back hard you may find the GK forces to be a bit more fragile than they'd like.

[Aidoneus]

Something not mentioned yet is the shunt moves. Personal Teleporters get a once per game 30" move (in addition to being able to move as Jump Infantry), this is only available to Interceptor Squads and Dreadknights.While neither of these are scoring it is possible for last minute objective contesting.

Unless they take a Grand Master and make those units Scoring. :) In fact, look to see a good number of GMs around, as their Grand Strategy rule makes the army very adaptable from game to game, as well as Psychic Communion making the army predictable within each individual game.

 

Really, as a veteran of the old Daemonhunters codex, I see a lot of potential for the nex codex to work much the same as the old one. After the initial hype has died down, I think you'll start seeing more balanced, versatile armies popping up. Expect 1 HQ (either Crowe, GM, Coteaz, or cheap Inquisitor), several units of PA GK squads (purifiers, strike squads, and interceptors), 3 Dreadthings ('noughts and 'knights), and perhaps a unit of Terminators. That will keep their model count high, give them tons of flexibility, and still maintain the ability to threaten anything you can send at them. It's not the perfect army, but I think in the long run it will be much better than Razorback or Paladin spam lists that new converts will be drawn to right away.

[TyrionTheImp]

Razorback lists work because it gives you A LOT (I mean A LOT) of firepower that's dangerous. Of course, I'm in the boat of Heavy bolters + Psybolts > Assault Cannons + Psybolts. Reasons are cost and range mostly, plus theres a minimal increase between Str 6 and Str 7 with rending.

 

Paladins I think are junk, unless you spend the points for Librarians with Shrouding and Quicksilver to run them from Cover to cover and make them hit first in CC, which to be honest does sound REALLY cool, but the cost would be staggering. That, or give them a Land Raider, but then you potentially lose a heavy support slot. Basically, the point is Paladins are expensive, and in order to be made survivable enough to warrant that cost, you're going to shell out more. I'm anxious to see how Paladins really fair on the board though, but the amount of Melta these days makes me think "meh".

 

And yes I forgot about Grand Strategy, which can also be applied to Dreadknights with Personal Teleporters! My personal problem with GK HQ's is their cost, inquisitors are dirt cheap and open up Henchmen, which allow for some interesting options. Not to mention all but a few GK HQs come in Terminator Armor standard, so you basically have to pack in a Termie squad as a retinue for them, which isn't a necessarily a bad thing, I love GK Termies. Fitting in Str 5 I6 Attacks, and then have a Str 10 Daemon Hammer at I1 coming at you in the same squad? Nasty! Plus those Nemesis force swords give them extra protection in CC, and cover can give them extra protection out of it. Scary part is they cost the same as our terminators, but in addition to being scary in CC and shooting, they're also scoring!

 

Personally, I want to start a GK Army so I'm trying to become very familiar with them, but I want to let the dust settle before I start buying things so I can get some good insight as to what works and what doesn't.

[Aidoneus]

Razorback lists work because it gives you A LOT (I mean A LOT) of firepower that's dangerous.

This may be true in most marine armies, but for Grey Knights we can rely a LOT more on our men to dish out the pain in the shooting phase. The reason is that, where marines rely on 1-2 special/heavy weapons per squad to do most of the offensive work, GKs have squad-wide storm bolters. That's 20 bolter shots at 24" on the move. Add in psybolts for 2pts per model, and those are S5. Add in Psycannons for fairly cheap, and 4 of those shots are half-range, assault, rending autocannons. And then, as you weigh these two alternatives, you realize that the GKs also have squad-wide S5 force weapons! Grey Knights don't need Razorbacks to do their shooting for them. Rather, they need more boots on the ground, because every single model in a GK army is a force to be reckoned with.

 

At any rate, this was just my personal prediction. Only time will tell if it comes true. Either way, I think you can expect lots of Razorback spam for a while at least, from all the new recruits coming over from other chapters. Apart from that, all I can say is that I don't expect to buy or convert a single Razorback model myself, and from what I've seen I won't have any trouble keeping up in the shooting phase because of it. :whoops:

[DarkGuard]

One of my friends told me that after using Strike squads he felt that Purifiers were in fact the better option, owing to the lack of attacks on Strike squads. Can therefore expect to see more Terminators and Crowe/Purifier spam than Strike squads?

[spartan249]

Strike Squads have one thing that Purifiers don't: Warp Quake. This is a good anti-deep strike measure, as it forces enemies to stay the hell away with deep strikers. Strike Squads basically become the ultimate bubblewrap unit because they exert a no-go zone 6x larger then any other unit.

 

Nothing defeats pods/spores/DoA like auto mishaps.

[DarkGuard]

Strike Squads have one thing that Purifiers don't: Warp Quake. This is a good anti-deep strike measure, as it forces enemies to stay the hell away with deep strikers. Strike Squads basically become the ultimate bubblewrap unit because they exert a no-go zone 6x larger then any other unit.

 

Nothing defeats pods/spores/DoA like auto mishaps.

 

Very true, I think it is clear that they do separate things. Strike squads are cheaper than Purifiers as a Troops choice, and do not require a HQ to be taken. Furthermore, they are more of a support unit, preventing unexpected surprises from appearing. This can prove problematic for some alpha strike units such melta in Pods etc. However, Purifiers are better suited for taking on hordes with their Cleansing Flame ability, and so they want to be at the forefront of the fight. Their role is one of direct combat rather than support.

 

The same friend has excitedly informed me about a tactic he's developed called the "Shunt Punch". The validity of this is being debated in the Official Rules forum right now, but it basically uses Interceptor Squads and Dreadknights with personal teleporterr, using their shunt move as a Scout move bestowed on them by a Grand Master. This allows them to redeploy to 12" away from enemy units, and provided they have first turn they can then use their jump infantry movement and assault. Against infantry armies I can see this being effective, but an effective way to deal with this would be to mech up. Short of a couple of psycannons on Interceptor squads, these units have no real way to deal with tanks unless they're in combat. Even semi-mech lists can capitalise by bringing their full force to bear on these units once they've been dragged out of line and exposed.

 

As has been said the validity of this is in question, with people unsure as to whether the shunt move is allowed in the Scout move. However, until the FAQ says otherwise my LGS seems inclined to allow it, so it'll be nice to hear some tips on how to break this tactic.

[minigun762]

After a fairly quick review of the codex, the first thing that pops out to me is the ability to make a fairly balanced variant of a "-Zilla" list using Dreadknights, Terminators and possibly Ven. Dreadnoughts. You trade high T or # of wounds for a great armor save and built in 5++ save which still maintaining above average shooting and close combat abilities.

 

DKs and GKT are both basically immune to the missile spam meta choice that is fairly common and the built in 5++ save does offer some protection from AP2/1 firepower when you can't claim a cover save but I wouldn't be too worried by that simply because a fair amount of the standard AP2 weapons are 24" or shorter range, which is the same effective range of your Psycannons.

 

Ven. Dreads seem like a natural pairing but they do give the missiles or autocannons a better target.