How do we fight the Grey Knights?

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I dislike the idea of scoring Dreadnoughts and feel the GK GM scoring rules don't contradict the main rule book as it stipulate treated as Troops. This means it is treated as a Troops choice with regards to objectives but doesn't contradict the other rules regarding objectives. I have to side with Helios and others on this matter GC08 (oh the betrayal of an Ultramarines brother).

 

It doesn't sit with that GK get scoring units when other armies have Troops choices which are vehicles and cannot score.

[greatcrusade08]

let me be clearer then..

 

the rule that allows the dread to 'score' has to be considered in its entirety.. the fact that it can be given to a dread specifically says alot about intent, but apparently in this rules discussion all common sense is at the wayside.

when we apply the rule to the BRB under scoring it says troops may score.. it then says unless they are vehciles..

is the GK dread a vehcile for the purposes of scoring.. No the rule says they are troops for the purposes of scoring.. you cant cherry pick different aspects of the two rules to deny your opponent his rules

 

for your interpretation to be correct the rules would have to make the dread troops for regular rules to apply... this rule is specific it treats the dread as troops for the purposes of scoring... the rule says treats as troops not troops that are vehciles, not that they are troops.

pure RAW must be followed for the purposes of scoring they are treated as troops and troops alone

 

edit: @ idaho, you are of course free to discuss this with your opponents, but i see it this way:

your opponent uses his grand strat rule to put scoring on dreads (more or less) the game comes to an end and he has a dread on an objective.. its an important call to make.

do you then say hes not allowed to score with his dreads? becuase his rule allows him to use grand start on his dreads.. it specifically mentions dreads.

 

to me it seems like an asshat move, the term ruleslawyer basically means using the word of the rule to defeat the spirit in order to gain an advantage.

if the dreads werent supposed to be given the rule it would say in the dex under the scoring part of grand strat (cannot be used on walkers).

Im arguing RAW becuase i feel we have overstepped the line of propriety, the BRB and dexes are full of inconsistent wording, we could either get bogged down in RAW arguments such as this.. or just use the RAP approach (rules as practical).. i dont particuarly like scoring dreads either, nor do i play GK.. but i see the rule allowing the dreads to be given the "claim objectives" rule.. and i feel to try and negate it with silly wordy arguments goes against the point of the rules..

 

why would it be given the rule if its not allowed to benefit from it?

[Captain Idaho]

My interpretation is that the rule grants Troops status for scoring purposes but doesn't over rule any other restrictions. The thing is under the rules for Scoring Troops it has separate distinction included under exceptions. Troops are all Troops regardless of their unit type but how they interact with objectives is dependent on their unit type.

 

RAW says they are Troops. But which Troops are you using? Deff Dreads can be Troops after all and aren't classified separately for it. The Troops choice status granted by Unyielding Anvil is Troops status as defined in the rule book and therefore follows all the rules for Troops as described by it. There is no separate category for different types of Troops choices, they all follow the same rules underneath the heading Scoring units.

 

There is nothing in Unyielding Anvil which over rides this, it only mentions counting as a Troops choice, which doesn't quantify infantry over vehicles or swarms.

[greatcrusade08]

My interpretation is that the rule grants Troops status for scoring purposes but doesn't over rule any other restrictions. The thing is under the rules for Scoring Troops it has separate distinction included under exceptions. Troops are all Troops regardless of their unit type but how they interact with objectives is dependent on their unit type.

 

RAW says they are Troops. But which Troops are you using? Deff Dreads can be Troops after all and aren't classified separately for it. The Troops choice status granted by Unyielding Anvil is Troops status as defined in the rule book and therefore follows all the rules for Troops as described by it. There is no separate category for different types of Troops choices, they all follow the same rules underneath the heading Scoring units.

 

There is nothing in Unyielding Anvil which over rides this, it only mentions counting as a Troops choice, which doesn't quantify infantry over vehicles or swarms.

 

thats all correct except that unyielding anvil treats them as if they were troops.. note its a definate distinction.. normally the dread cant score and isnt a troops choice,

the BRB rule for troops makes mention that the exceptions are noteable, i.e if the deff dread is a troop but also a vehcile it cant score.

in this case its not that simple, the GK dread under the unyielding rule is treated as a troop.. note it doesnt specify that you would also treat it as a vehcile..

 

becuase its a counts as rule instea dof a definate, they are now troops rule, we have to take the rule on its own merit.. they are troops and troops only for the purposes of claiming objectives.

 

If it gets FAQd, ill accept it, but as ive said, its a blow to gaming etiquette to keep questioning all these rules with long winded interpretations.. feel free to discuss it with your opponent if you dont agree, but what if he vehemently supports his position.

[greatcrusade08]

to be honest theres little point in me arguing this.. after all i cant make people play respectfully :huh:

 

as i dont play GK it matters to me little, i would allow it if i played against GK, not for any RAW purpose but for common sense and propriety.

you guys can do what you want

[Captain Idaho]

Being a Troops choice doesn't mean they count as Scoring. The section detailing what constitutes a Scoring unit defines it as those taken from Troops allowance of an army. Then there are several exceptions to this. Making a unit a Troops choice so can claim as if a Troops choice doesn't over ride the other rules regarding scoring because there are no separate distinctions between Troops choices.

 

Of course this is my interpretation and there is certainly plenty of scope for other interpretation. It definitely needs FAQing.

 

If it gets FAQd, ill accept it, but as ive said, its a blow to gaming etiquette to keep questioning all these rules with long winded interpretations.. feel free to discuss it with your opponent if you dont agree, but what if he vehemently supports his position

 

Makes sense to discuss prior to a game such and issue, especially as we have some other crucial questions regarding this Codex also so everyone needs to know page to sing from. However it is not a blow against gaming etiquette to simply discuss the matter briefly. If neither of you can agree quickly before a game let's just roll a dice. Easy.

 

If the opponent is vehemently supporting his position, well he needs to chill. If he refuses to accept "The Most Important Rule" and the dice roll-off to decide whose interpretation is to be used them he's not worth playing. :huh:

[greatcrusade08]

Being a Troops choice doesn't mean they count as Scoring. The section detailing what constitutes a Scoring unit defines it as those taken from Troops allowance of an army. Then there are several exceptions to this. Making a unit a Troops choice so can claim as if a Troops choice doesn't over ride the other rules regarding scoring because there are no separate distinctions between Troops choices.

 

Of course this is my interpretation and there is certainly plenty of scope for other interpretation. It definitely needs FAQing.

 

i agree the FAq is needed, im working off the principle that specific overrides general, codex overides rulebook.. im not blind to the opposing argument, i just dont agree with it personally.

im not in favour of going this far into RAW either.. i do so merely becuase ive made my stand and will back it up if i have to ;)

 

Makes sense to discuss prior to a game such and issue, especially as we have some other crucial questions regarding this Codex also so everyone needs to know page to sing from. However it is not a blow against gaming etiquette to simply discuss the matter briefly. If neither of you can agree quickly before a game let's just roll a dice. Easy.

 

If the opponent is vehemently supporting his position, well he needs to chill. If he refuses to accept "The Most Important Rule" and the dice roll-off to decide whose interpretation is to be used them he's not worth playing. :huh:

 

ah but isnt it all about perspective, couldnt a man who runs GKs find arguments against rules hes clearly allowed to use to be rude and OTT.. he could himself think that his detractor needs to chill.

there are always two sides to every argument, a wise man knows that not everything is about right and wrong.

 

as ive said RAP (rules as practical) is the way forward.. especially given GW shows no signs of getting better at wording

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is an interesting logic conundrum. But I digress. I vote we get back on whatever the topic of this topic is.

[DarkGuard]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree, which is an interesting logic conundrum. But I digress. I vote we get back on whatever the topic of this topic is.

 

Thank you. Back to discussing how to beat the new and upstart Grey Knights :P.

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

Ah, so that's what this is about. :P

 

I'd say it comes down to exploiting the dramatically longer ranged weapons we have to there best effect by destroying/immobilizing their transports. Due to their low model count, they probably won't have many transports, and once they're out, we can shoot the infantry. That said, if they Deep Strike Terminators and Strike Squads, it should be... interesting, to say the least.

[Something Wycked]

Since I don't have any Grey Knight models yet, I ran a proxy battle against a friend of mine who plays Necrons.

 

I rolled with Crowe, 2x10 Purifiers with 4 Psycannons in Rhinos, 2x10 Interceptors (one squad with Psybolts, the other with a hammer), a Vindicare, a Dreadknight with Heavy Incinerator and PT, and 5 Paladins with 2 Psycannons and 3 hammers. He took a unit of Immortals with a Lord, 10 Destroyers with a Destroyer Lord, 3 Spiders, a Monolith and 40 Warriors.

 

First turn, the Vindicare hit a Lord and failed to wound with a Shield Breaker, then went down in a hail of Destroyer fire, failing 2 of his 3 saves (snake eyes!). My opinion of him has gone down significantly against models with Wounds; he'll be primarily a vehicle killer for me.

 

I rushed the Rhinos forward, keeping the squads inside as I was out of range and used them as cover for the Interceptors. The DK hid behind a somewhat central building and the Paladins strolled forward on the flank.

 

Past that, I'll summarize. The midfield was mine. While the Destroyers focused their fire and inflicted a fair number of casualties on a unit of Purifiers, the Psycannons managed to make all their saves and continued heavy mode firing. Because of good placement of the Interceptors on my part, when the Monolith came in, it scattered into a Warp Quake and I misplaced it to a far corner, away from all the action, where it promptly spat out a unit of Warriors... far from the action. The Destroyers were taking heavy casualties but making nearly all their We'll Be Back Rolls, and the same was happening to the Immortals. The Heavy Incinterator on a PT-equipped DK is absolutely devastating- was inflicting 8+ saves each turn on the Immortals and instantly killed the scarab swarms that the Spiders were popping out, every time they came out. I should have held the Paladins in reserve and teleported them in- marching across the board, they didn't do anything for me all game. The game was a draw simply because I failed to focus on the potential end of the game on turn 5- I didn't focus fire on wounded units, I fired on the bigger threats.

 

When the game ended prematurely on turn 5, we each had 2 kill points- one of my Rhinos and the Vindicare, while I had killed a Lord and a Tomb Spider. The Lord fell to Strength 5 NFW's on the Interceptors, and the DK smashed the Spider to bits.

 

Conclusions: The midfield absolutely belongs to the Grey Knights. If they can get to midfield and keep you in range of their weapons, they're going to outshoot you unless you have parking lot syndrome. Strength 5 storm bolters are death when fielded in large numbers. Powers like Warp Quake are absolutely devastating when squad sizes are large and they're placed strategically around the midfield.

 

You'll need to take the midfield away from the Grey Knights, which isn't to say that you need to get there first and mix it up, but making sure that you can Rapid Fire on them will certainly help. Position your anti-Marine weaponry in range of midfield and make them come to you. I'd love to see a Purifier unit disembark from a Rhino right in front of one of my Plasma Cannon Devastators or one of my Vindicators.

 

However, if a Grey Knight player is focusing on mobility, its going to be tough to stop them from playing the game that they want to play. Interceptors and DK's with PT's are expensive, yes, but they get in your face right now and they supported my Purifiers excellently. If I had played strategically (to the game rules) a bit more and finished off wounded units instead of doing the smart tactical thing and crippling the enemy's capability to fight back, I would have pulled out a victory instead of a draw, even against Necrons who just wouldn't die. If I was facing Marines, the game would have been over on turn 3 with the Marines shot to pieces.

[DarkGuard]

@Chapter Master Ignis Domus: I good summary there, which I think will certainly be our best way of combating the Grey Knights. All in all, we have many more units with superior long range firepower (two kinds of Dreads, Preds, Land Raider, Typhoons, TFC, Dev squads), whereas they're looking at only a handful (Vindicare, two kinds of Dreads, perhaps =I= psyker squad). With them having better firepower in midfield, which Something Wycked has pointed out, we need to react to this accordingly. I don't expect too many games like the one I had last week when I was taking midfield and not holding backfield with all my army.

 

@Something Wycked: Thanks for that summary, it's interesting to hear from people who have been playing them. I imagine that Necrons could potentially be one of the harder armies for Grey Knights, provided they have Res Orbs of course. More than most Space Marine armies they can outnumber GKs and get back up, not too good despite the many power weapons.

 

I've been thinking about the Libby recently, our Libby that is, not there's. Earlier on in this thread he was written off by many, myself included, as not being able to do the job against Grey Knights as he isn't that reliable at straight roll-offs on the psychic hood. This is very true in regards to their HQ models, but not so true in regards to the rest of their army. Looking through the Codex they're scary =I= psyker squad is nasty, but only Ld8. They won't always get their power off, and they need a 3 on a psychic hood roll to stand a chance of succeeding with it. Many GK squads are also Ld8, with their Justicar giving them Ld9. Ld9 needs at least a 2 against psychic hood, but the odds are now evened up. Also, killing the Justicar with weight of fire, Perils or Tellion means the squad is now testing on Ld8, which should be easy to block with a psychic hood.

 

So I think there is yet life for the Libby yet, provided you keep him in a Rhino. I underestimated his psychic blocking skills greatly in regards to GKs, but he's not as bad at it than I first thought.

[Captain Idaho]

Against Grey Knights you are going to need every element of your list to do it's bit to win against a competetant Grey Knights player and forking out 100pts on a model to hide away in a Rhino seems wasteful to me.

 

Like I said before, if the Librarian is a key part of your list then don't worry about taking him out, but changing your list and style to accomadate a Librarian (there is currently no room for a Librarian to be placed inside a Transport with an escort in my own list) is a recipe for disaster.

 

I played the Grey Knights for the 1st time in the recent Throne of Skulls and I must say I found them to be exactly how I and others assumed they would. They lacked staying ability due to insufficient numbers and supporting units (a balanced list will be smaller than standard Space Marines if it has a bit of everything) and that combined with the superior Long range capacity of our lists meant they were at a disadvantage early on.

 

Their psychic abilities were situational and really didn't change the game simply because there were no Librarians about. Incidently there were no Librarians in any of the GK lists I saw.

 

I believe people are still hung up on Marines Lists having Vulkan and the like and being based around close ranged strategy which takes away our main method of beating GKs - weaking them at range 1st.

[DarkGuard]

I totally agree with you Idaho, I was simply stating that I didn't give the Librarian enough credit when it came to hooding Grey Knight powers, most of which will be Ld8 or 9.

 

As an aside, may I ask how your Honour Guard are faring against any Grey Knight armies? I only ask as recently I've been looking for a close combat unit for my list and after much deliberation I chose an Idaho patter Honour Guard unit over a LC/SS Command squad. It performed well today, but I'm still concerned about lack of invulnerable saves, particularly against I6 power weapons that could be S5. How do you cope with them?

[Something Wycked]

I played the Grey Knights for the 1st time in the recent Throne of Skulls and I must say I found them to be exactly how I and others assumed they would. They lacked staying ability due to insufficient numbers and supporting units (a balanced list will be smaller than standard Space Marines if it has a bit of everything) and that combined with the superior Long range capacity of our lists meant they were at a disadvantage early on.

 

Their psychic abilities were situational and really didn't change the game simply because there were no Librarians about. Incidently there were no Librarians in any of the GK lists I saw.

Every psychic power is situational ^_^ There were only two that I brought that didn't get used in my game- Crowe's Heroic Sacrifice and the Purifiers' Cleansing Flame. Crowe never made it into assault (and never got shot at, either lol) and the Purifiers were intentionally sitting back/sitting still to maximize their Psycannon firepower. Hammerhand was extraordinarily useful since the Necrons I got into assault with were Toughness 5.

 

What sort of list did you face, Idaho? It sounds like the list you faced wasn't very cohesive and probably not highly mobile. How would you have dealt with a list like mine where half the army can be at your deployment zone on turn one, and the other half of the army is supporting the first half in turn two?

[Captain Idaho]

I played the Grey Knights for the 1st time in the recent Throne of Skulls and I must say I found them to be exactly how I and others assumed they would. They lacked staying ability due to insufficient numbers and supporting units (a balanced list will be smaller than standard Space Marines if it has a bit of everything) and that combined with the superior Long range capacity of our lists meant they were at a disadvantage early on.

 

Their psychic abilities were situational and really didn't change the game simply because there were no Librarians about. Incidently there were no Librarians in any of the GK lists I saw.

Every psychic power is situational :o There were only two that I brought that didn't get used in my game- Crowe's Heroic Sacrifice and the Purifiers' Cleansing Flame. Crowe never made it into assault (and never got shot at, either lol) and the Purifiers were intentionally sitting back/sitting still to maximize their Psycannon firepower. Hammerhand was extraordinarily useful since the Necrons I got into assault with were Toughness 5.

 

What sort of list did you face, Idaho? It sounds like the list you faced wasn't very cohesive and probably not highly mobile. How would you have dealt with a list like mine where half the army can be at your deployment zone on turn one, and the other half of the army is supporting the first half in turn two?

 

Panic probably!

 

I don't really know the details but I imagine I will out number you? Do you have lots of Intercepters for the shunt move? It's hard to make a choice of my options to be honest!

 

I'd try and cripple your attack force with my entire army (which I should definitely have numerical superiority) and then use what's left to either shoot from long range (if you were nice and left my Typhoons alive!) or just secure objectives and attempt to contest your own since you only have half an army now.

 

Incidently the guy I played had a balanced list that could do a bit of everything and came 1st out of the Grey Knights players. You can find my report in the Ultramarines forum (my key board is broke so typing this took 20mins!).

[Chapter Master Ignis Domus]

I still can't figure out what I would do against Interceptors if they have the first turn. Regardless of whether they can shunt during their scout move or not, they would be able to get off a first turn assault, which could tie up my long range shooting units, except for my Twin-Las Razorbacks. I would probably be able to kill them, but I would lose two turns of shooting, meaning the rest of the army would be attacking by then. Hmmm....any ideas?

[DarkGuard]

Well if they can't shunt in their scout move then they can't get a first turn charge. They can't assault after shunting, which is why the shunt punch works so well with scouts, they shunt in scout move, move closer with normal move and then assault in first turn, all without getting shot at. Without the scouts movement though they shunt first turn, maybe run or shoot, and then get shot at before being able to assault. Of course, as you've rightly said, you're already diverting your army and your plans to deal with them.

 

Also, looking at how some people are thinking of running them, I'd be concerned of small squads playing like bike squads almost, using their 12" movement to stay 24" away and fire away with S5 storm bolters and psycannons, before then swooping in to clean up the remains. At the end of the game, if they haven't had to react to a threat (or run away from one) they can use their shunt move to contest an objective. I'd be more concerned about them, as they'd be harder to remove as they're further away. Really, their assault ability is the same as a Strike squad's, they have 1 attack each and their combat upgrades are extortionate. Rather, I think they're better at basically being a Strike squad without Rhino and the ability to shunt, while being able to move at 12" and fire at full effect all the time. That being said, I'd be very interested myself in running them if I ever do a Grey Knights army.

[Something Wycked]

You might outnumber the list I took. You certainly have more vehicles! lol

 

Crowe

10 Purifiers, Psycannons x4, Rhino

10 Purifiers, Psycannons x4, Rhino

10 Interceptors, Hammer

10 Interceptors, Psybolts

5 Paladins, Psycannons x2, Hammers x3

Vindicare

Dreadknight, Teleporter, Heavy Incinerator

 

Because I was facing Necrons I didn't feel compelled to use the shunt on the first turn; I hid my Interceptors behind the Rhinos and hid the Dreadknight behind a building near midfield. Turn 2 was when Maximus said, "Unleash hell."

 

Against the list you took (and having the luxury of first turn), I'd definitely be shunting and probably combat squadding (if not a KP game) the Interceptors with Psybolts to Stormbolter your speeders, who could really put the hurt on my Dreadknight or put large dents in my squads or disable my Rhinos. The Dreadknight would likely also shunt to support the Interceptors, throwing that flame template down to thin any squads deployed outside a transport. The Rhinos would full-steam-ahead, Crowe running behind one of them, and the Paladins would be deep striking. The Vindicare would be looking to remove a special weapon... either the attack bike or a speeder if the Interceptors failed to down both.

 

Edit: Of course I was operating on 500 points more than you... that's the only reason I outnumber you :)

 

Double Edit: To shave 500 points, I'd change the Purifiers to Strikes, Paladins to Terminators, and I'd want to change Crowe to a Libby, but I'd likely have to settle for a Brotherhood Champion due to lack of points.

[DarkGuard]

This is what, 2000pts we're talking about? Well you outnumber my most recent 1750pts list (which does bear a striking resemblance to a Mr Idaho's list), and even at 2000pts you'd probably outnumber. Well on foot you would. Vehicles not a chance.

 

Lets see, at 1750pts I'm thinking of running this:

Captain w/ RB, SS, AA

5x Honour Guard w/ 1x relic blade (CC) and Chapter Banner in Rhino

2x Rifleman Dreads

10x Tactical Marines w/ combi-plas, plasma gun, MM in Rhino

10x Tactical Marines w/ combi-plas, plasma gun, MM in Rhino

5x Tactical Marines in Razorback w/ las plas

2x MM/HF Speeders

2x Typhoons

Vindicator w/ siege shield

 

That's 1750pts, at 2000pts chances are there'll be another Vindy, a Libby (Null Zone and either Avenger or MoA) with either the Honour Guard or the Razorback squad, and a few upgrades, like a dozer blade here and digi weapons there.

 

Now on foot, with non AV models you're outnumbering me 48 to 32. Yes I've included the Dreadknight as it's not AV (though perhaps should be counted as for these intentions). So on foot, everything dismounted, you outnumber me by 16 models. Not looking good for me. However, vehicle wise it seems I outnumber you 12 to 2, that's an extra 10 vehicles for me. of course, this is rather unfair, and it should really be 12 to 3 because the DK should be considered a vehicle in all respect.

 

The questions comes to whether you can get in range quickly. If I get first turn and take those Rhinos apart, and unless they're in cover or out of LoS I think I stand a good chance in doing so, those psycannons on the Purifiers aren't going to do a lot of good until you can walk them into midfield, which will take longer. That and the constant threat of firepower whittling them down. The Interceptors will be scary though, especially after you've revealed you'll use their psybolt ammo to target the weaker vehicles like the Speeders. Thankfully, I have plasma that can take a DK down, but I'd prefer to use long-range firepower, and not have to go toe to toe with 20 power armoured, power weapon wielding Grey Knights in my first or second turn.

 

I've faced the Vindicare before, a nuisance, but didn't do much damage and ignored it in favour of killing more troops unit (my Tactical squad was sitting in the same cover as it and ignored it, but it was objectives). I wouldn't be too afraid of the Paladins thanks to the two Vindys and Null Zone which you can't shut down (unless you fire a turbo-penetrator at him).

 

All in all, I know it seems childish to say I'd do this, I'd do that, but I find this helpful in discussing how to combat Grey Knights. Your list is radically different than the one I faced at my local Games Workshop, with more emphasis on midfield control and disruption, while my opponent's relied on midfield/backfield control and counter-attacking. I think I'd struggle more with this list, especially if you'd get first turn (and you will get first turn, I only get first turn about 10% of the time). Even if I can shoot out your Rhinos before you move you can still shunt 20 Interceptors and a DK into my deployment zone, giving your Purifier squads and Paladin squad time to get into midfield where you want them to be, and once there and probably in cover they'd be hard to shift. Would be a fun and entertaining game I imagine.

 

Once question, do you feel that the lack of long-range weaponry, particular things like psyfleman Dreads are a huge weakness in your army? Or are you able to compensate well enough through the use of personal teleporters and Rhino rushes into midfield, allowing you to set your psycannons up? I ask because if I were to do a Grey Knight force, I'd like it to be as different from my Marine list as possible, so that means more infantry units, more jump infantry, less tanks and Dreads, and lots more Termies! As far as tactics go, would you say your list is a good indicator of the lack of long-range firepower that Grey Knights will have to deal with?

[Something Wycked]

All in all, I know it seems childish to say I'd do this, I'd do that, but I find this helpful in discussing how to combat Grey Knights.

I don't see it as childish at all; neither of us are saying that our tactics are superior or will automatically work. This is just like discussing chess openings :)

 

Even if I can shoot out your Rhinos before you move you can still shunt 20 Interceptors and a DK into my deployment zone, giving your Purifier squads and Paladin squad time to get into midfield where you want them to be, and once there and probably in cover they'd be hard to shift. Would be a fun and entertaining game I imagine.

That would be the nightmare scenario for my list- going 2nd and losing the Rhinos. Its not designed to be a footslogging list, and if you force them to footslog, that can win the game in and of itself- you can engage half the army at a time with your full force.

 

I've faced the Vindicare before, a nuisance, but didn't do much damage and ignored it in favour of killing more troops unit (my Tactical squad was sitting in the same cover as it and ignored it, but it was objectives).

That was a particularly inefficient use of a Vindicare. Having used him once now, here's how players should use him: pick off special weapons that aren't in cover with the 2+ to wound rounds, and kill vehicles. Dealing 2 wounds or removing wargear invulnerable saves is nice, but its just a sniper weapon, it wounds on 4+. He will hit with BS8, but if he doesn't wound, you won't be suffering any ill effects. I don't know about you, but I'm not okay with spending 145 points on one model who only has a 50/50 chance of doing anything useful. 4d6+3 against vehicles (and +1 on the damage chart) and 2+ to wound against models without cover/invuln are his most effective uses.

 

Once question, do you feel that the lack of long-range weaponry, particular things like psyfleman Dreads are a huge weakness in your army? Or are you able to compensate well enough through the use of personal teleporters and Rhino rushes into midfield, allowing you to set your psycannons up? I ask because if I were to do a Grey Knight force, I'd like it to be as different from my Marine list as possible, so that means more infantry units, more jump infantry, less tanks and Dreads, and lots more Termies! As far as tactics go, would you say your list is a good indicator of the lack of long-range firepower that Grey Knights will have to deal with?

 

YES. Keep in mind I've been a Marine player for years, and that the first unit I took a liking to was Lascannon Devastators. The army has grown to include 12 Heavy Support choices, so the lack of 36/48" weaponry is a distinct difference to me. When Blood Angels came out, it became my new primary codex because it improved my Devastators and empowered my vehicles (Vindicator with effectively 36" range? Yes please!) and I wasn't particularly fond of C:SM assault units to begin with. (Just had a game where 10 of my Vanguards got a Heroic Intervention charge against a Black Templar 20 man squad and were wiped out, only inflicting 9 casualties to the Black Templars......)

 

I think the PT mobility is key for a non-deep striking Grey Knights list. Grey Knights as a whole are not terribly good in assault, so the emphasis on the army must be shooting. However, when 90% of your shooting has limited range, you must also emphasize mobility or you won't be shooting at all from being outranged. Even if you manage to take control of midfield, highly mobile armies (Destroyer-heavy Necrons, Eldar, Biker/Speeder Marines, etc) will likely be able to maneuver out of your range and dictate the terms of the fight.

 

Grey Knights have 2 weaknesses- lack of heavy/long range firepower and lack of numbers. Interceptor lists will be the toughest thing for Marine players to face in my opinion because it solves the range problem and they're still half the cost of Paladins- numbers won't be too much of an issue. Add in the tactical options they open up from their mobility and they're a bargain, even with Incinerators on them.

 

So, from a Marine's perspective: dictate the range of the fight. Remove their transport options. Maneuver outside of the sweet spot of their shooting, or close to rapid fire range to maximize yours when beneficial. Your dedicated assault troops will roll up Grey Knights who haven't been kitted out to be awesome in assault. Hold those Grey Knights at arm's length and shoot them down. Two fistfuls of plasma, sprinkle Demolisher Cannon to taste.

[DarkGuard]

That would be the nightmare scenario for my list- going 2nd and losing the Rhinos. Its not designed to be a footslogging list, and if you force them to footslog, that can win the game in and of itself- you can engage half the army at a time with your full force.

 

I suppose then you'd simply attempt to hide your Rhinos before cover to obscure line of sight, or completely stay out of it. I tend to do the same, even with all my vehicles. I don't like many people getting shots at them before they've moved.

 

That was a particularly inefficient use of a Vindicare. Having used him once now, here's how players should use him: pick off special weapons that aren't in cover with the 2+ to wound rounds, and kill vehicles. Dealing 2 wounds or removing wargear invulnerable saves is nice, but its just a sniper weapon, it wounds on 4+. He will hit with BS8, but if he doesn't wound, you won't be suffering any ill effects. I don't know about you, but I'm not okay with spending 145 points on one model who only has a 50/50 chance of doing anything useful. 4d6+3 against vehicles (and +1 on the damage chart) and 2+ to wound against models without cover/invuln are his most effective uses.

 

That's pretty similar to how I'd use him. My opponent at the time was using him with turbo penetrator rounds, to be honest, he didn't have much of a choice. As my force is entirely mech he had to force them out of the transports before he could pick off special weapons.

 

YES. Keep in mind I've been a Marine player for years, and that the first unit I took a liking to was Lascannon Devastators. The army has grown to include 12 Heavy Support choices, so the lack of 36/48" weaponry is a distinct difference to me. When Blood Angels came out, it became my new primary codex because it improved my Devastators and empowered my vehicles (Vindicator with effectively 36" range? Yes please!) and I wasn't particularly fond of C:SM assault units to begin with. (Just had a game where 10 of my Vanguards got a Heroic Intervention charge against a Black Templar 20 man squad and were wiped out, only inflicting 9 casualties to the Black Templars......)

 

This also sounds like a fantastic reason to start Grey Knights, gives you something of a challenge and forces you to play differently to other Marine lists. If I were to swap Marines it would be either for Blood Angels or Grey Knights, both do better in combat in regular Marines, while being able to make decent foot armies as well. Chances are that Grey Knights will be more interesting thanks to their style of play, which requires you to stay in that 19-24" sweet spot unless you choice not to do so.

 

Grey Knights have 2 weaknesses- lack of heavy/long range firepower and lack of numbers. Interceptor lists will be the toughest thing for Marine players to face in my opinion because it solves the range problem and they're still half the cost of Paladins- numbers won't be too much of an issue. Add in the tactical options they open up from their mobility and they're a bargain, even with Incinerators on them.

 

So, from a Marine's perspective: dictate the range of the fight. Remove their transport options. Maneuver outside of the sweet spot of their shooting, or close to rapid fire range to maximize yours when beneficial. Your dedicated assault troops will roll up Grey Knights who haven't been kitted out to be awesome in assault. Hold those Grey Knights at arm's length and shoot them down. Two fistfuls of plasma, sprinkle Demolisher Cannon to taste.

 

I think you've summed up the best way to handle Marines, and what they'll fear. The thing about Interceptor squads is that if they didn't have their shunt move I don't think I'd be so worried. I've played jump packer lists before, they didn't worry me as I still got quite a bit of shooting in. However, to be able to move 30" and then pour fire on one, most likely exposed and isolated part of your battle line is a scary threat to face. If they didn't have the shunt move I think Interceptors wouldn't much better than normal jump packers (except for power weapons on everyone, and they'd probably be cheaper then).

 

Thanks again for engaging in this discussion Something Wycked, it's been informative to me and hopefully others as well.

[Captain Idaho]

Personally I reckon I would remove a unit of Interceptors with the Honour Guard, though if you have lots of Halberds I might lose the combat without a little softening up first. Hopefully my vidicator, Dreads and Typhoons can even the odds.

 

Certainly a fearsome list though, I reckon I could be in trouble against such a list. The Dreadknight is the biggest worry up close. I'd have to prioritise killing the Inteceptors first so next turn I can put some wounds on the Dreadknight.

 

I might even put stuff in reserve enmasse to remove your Alpha strike capabilities.

 

Or just lose the game.

[greatcrusade08]

dreadknight = 4 termies at I4

 

its really not that hard to deal with, if you can do a couple of wounds first a chapter master with relic blade could finish it off

[Captain Idaho]

You'd think but my bad luck = good luck for opponents! I put 5 AP2 wounds on a Dreadknight (not including rolls of 1 to wound!) and the thing made 4 of the invulnerable saves!