Would you want Matt Ward to write the Fluff for DA?

[HsojVvad]

I have been seeing alot of people complain about Matt Ward lately. I wasn't sure why, but I started reading the GK codex, and now I see why. I had to stop reading the GK codex because it was getting bad. I stopped reading when Titan disapeared into the warp and coming back. Then I read how else he goes way over the top. Some people are saying the rules for GK are actaully balanced but the fluff is atrocious.

 

So would you guys want Matt Ward to write the DA codex? I am guessing the fluff will be over the top and maybe even ruined or tainted and the rules be way over the top. So what do my fellow Brothers think?

[Grand Master Belial]

In many ways we have some pretty firmly established fluff. The challenge will be in the characters that are added and perhaps some battles and if they plan to have any prominence with any of the successor chapters like in the SM and BA codex. Other than that, the DA fan base is about as stubborn as the marines are portrayed as being. We still used the 2nd Ed. Codex as a better reference than the current Codex with talk of Sapphon coming back and the like.

[Octavulg]

I want Matt Ward to write the DA fluff only in the sense that I think it would be hilarious. Plus, one of these codices will be the one where he finally snaps and makes something so turgid that people actually refuse to buy it.

 

Hey, I can dream.

[The Shadow Guard]

I have been seeing alot of people complain about Matt Ward lately. I wasn't sure why, but I started reading the GK codex, and now I see why. I had to stop reading the GK codex because it was getting bad. I stopped reading when Titan disapeared into the warp and coming back. Then I read how else he goes way over the top. Some people are saying the rules for GK are actaully balanced but the fluff is atrocious.

 

So would you guys want Matt Ward to write the DA codex? I am guessing the fluff will be over the top and maybe even ruined or tainted and the rules be way over the top. So what do my fellow Brothers think?

 

I think we all need to understand the way GW or any other major corporation works and also take in to context where GW is in relaiton to 40K fluff. In recent years, for the first time, they are fleshing out background information on many things 40K. From BL books, through the fantastic Horus Heresy series, the Forgeworld books and the world wide campaigns conducted....

 

They have to develop more details and do so cautiously. Some are going to like it and others won't. The reality is that a single writer isn't going to get carte blanche to do as he pleases. There will be oversight in to what is written, discussions and I am sure arguments, as one would find in any creative industry.

 

So, when we start slinging mud at specific individuals, it would be worth understanding that those individuals are creating the background and rules with the full support of their creative team.

 

So, personally I really don't care which individual creates it, as long as I get more, newer fluff... as it's coming with the bessing of GW as a whole... :lol:

 

SG

[Mazfrael]

I actually read the GK fluff the other day... Terrible stuff but good for a laugh... I really would not want him to write the Dark Angels fluff because he would probably make Roboute Guilliman the Dark Angels spiritual liege like he did with the Imperial Fists. :whoops: (I think that's what games workshop get for letting someone with a complete ****-on for Ultramarines free reign over fluff.) Although... It would be nice to have some of those cheese covered weapon and vehicle options from the Nilla dex (Sternguard ammo comes to mind)... :wub:

 

Edit: fact check, spelling

[greatcrusade08]

I would actually go out on a limb and say the DA dex could use a points update, some wargear changes etc and it would still be viable and competative.

Would i want Matt Ward to write the new dex.. yeah sure why not.

 

sure his fluff is normally cartoonish, but thats not why you buy a dex, you buy a dex so you can have rules to use for your tabletop battles.. in terms of rules, Matt Ward writes pretty good dexes.

If you want decent background fluff, place an order with black library, but im sure there will be the normal set in stone DA background and a few more interesting stories that some people will snort at.

 

given the more recent trend of this board i fully expect this to become a hate thread, but im hoping to be pleasantly surprised.

 

he would probably make Rowboat Girlyman the Dark Angels spiritual liege like he did with the Blood Angels. (I think that's what games workshop get for letting someone with a complete ****-on for Ultramarines free reign over fluff.)

 

citations please.. for both points..

and for clarification its Roboute Guilliman

[Seahawk]

Indeed.

 

I imagine any new Dark Angel fluff will involve them being better buddies with the =][= than GK, having access to super-plasma weapons (that don't overheat), and they'll actually be a Blood Angel successor that worships Russ. Given the way all fluff has gone in the past few books, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Interrogator Stobz]

I want Matt Ward to write the DA fluff only in the sense that I think it would be hilarious. Plus, one of these codices will be the one where he finally snaps and makes something so turgid that people actually refuse to buy it.

 

Hey, I can dream.

 

Chokes on drink :whoops: you said "turgid".

 

What an apt description of his work to date :wub:

 

Our fluff is pretty staunch, if they stuff up the fluff we as a community will ignore it i'm sure.

 

So as long as we get good rules FOR GREENWING I'm happy;

 

For example POTMS and Deep strike on all vehicles, we should have have old tech to help us move and shoot and THawk transporters like BA to rain death on our enemies, we are the angels of death after all.

[Mazfrael]

he would probably make Rowboat Girlyman the Dark Angels spiritual liege like he did with the Blood Angels. (I think that's what games workshop get for letting someone with a complete ****-on for Ultramarines free reign over fluff.)

 

citations please.. for both points..

and for clarification its Roboute Guilliman

 

You're correct about the spelling but there is nothing on the forum rules about not being allowed to make a joke, is there? I'll change it just to be safe. Also, sorry, it was Rogal Dorn not Sanguinius and I Quote

 

"I supported the codex reformation from the beginning out of respect for Roboute Guilliman, who is my spiritual liege. Since my own knowledge of warfare is severely lacking I was overjoyed when my Legion was given the opportunity to learn from a more competent general's experience. My only regrets are that we, rather than they, were charged with protecting Terra, and that thanks to my inferior gene-seed my sons can never be true Ultramarines." -Rogal Dorn, primarch of the Imperial Fists.

 

and also just to prove that Matt Ward has a biased outlook for the Ultramarines and is basically allowed to write what he wants.... Just read all the quotes in the SM Dex from the Ultramarines special characters :(

[Darkangeldentist]

Since the initial question is about the fluff, no! I wouldn't really want him to write the rules either. I think the codices of late have all been more than a bit off the mark in both terms of background and rules but Matt Ward's work I do not enjoy even from a cynical point of view.

 

It's not just that it gets way over the top, something about the way it's written puts me off so quickly that I stop reading. Normally I have tried to buy most if not all the books for 40K, of late though, none. The only thing that seems to have remained for the most part consistent and for me excellent is the artwork.

[The Shadow Guard]

This thread is fast becoming a very unconstructive and entirely based on supposition. I am not sure how the fact that a codex is not just written by a single person but assessed, paly tested and overviewed by an antire team can be thrust in to the center of this discussion. The lead writer obviously takes the lead.... but the ultimate product is presented with the full backing of the design team.

 

I haven't yet read the GKN Codex so am a little left out in the lurch but I htink he did a pretty good job in writing the Codex Spacemarines and Codex Blood Angels. Most units fit with the backgorund fluff. More depth to characters and units.

 

Anyway just my humble opinion...

 

SG

[Frater Uriah]

I actually don't have so much of a problem with Mat Ward's codecies. Yes, his fluff goes to 11 at times. Yes, he has some of the most over-the-top special characters in the game (Marneus Calgar, the Sanguinor and Mephiston walk into a bar...), and he does get a certain, lascivious gleam in his eye when you mention the Ultramarines, but overall, his rules are pretty balanced. I don't think that the three I mentioned above walking into a bar are actually unbalanced... they are priced accordingly and have their individual weaknesses, so if you want some to pay 250+ points to rock house with one dude, good on you. I haven't read C:GK yet, so I have no opinion about that (though some of the characters' fluff on the website made me very leery, to be honest).

 

If they tapped him to write the DA 'Dex, I wouldn't be upset about it. At least we wouldn't get Thunderlion Cavalry.

 

(Waiting for the tomatoes to be thrown....)

[Mazfrael]

I actually don't have so much of a problem with Mat Ward's codecies. Yes, his fluff goes to 11 at times. Yes, he has some of the most over-the-top special characters in the game (Marneus Calgar, the Sanguinor and Mephiston walk into a bar...), and he does get a certain, lascivious gleam in his eye when you mention the Ultramarines, but overall, his rules are pretty balanced. I don't think that the three I mentioned above walking into a bar are actually unbalanced... they are priced accordingly and have their individual weaknesses, so if you want some to pay 250+ points to rock house with one dude, good on you. I haven't read C:GK yet, so I have no opinion about that (though some of the characters' fluff on the website made me very leery, to be honest).

 

If they tapped him to write the DA 'Dex, I wouldn't be upset about it. At least we wouldn't get Thunderlion Cavalry.

 

(Waiting for the tomatoes to be thrown....)

 

I'll agree that the rules are MOSTLY balanced, and some of the options from the C:SM would be nice. But not at the expense of well thought out Fluff.

 

No Thunderlion cavalry is also a good point, although I am still tempted to convert one for kicks... haha.

[MadDoc]

I would be concerned if I heard he was writing the rules for a new DA Codex, I would be mortified if I learned he was writing the background though. He's an abominable writer and has no place writing background for any army.

 

I also seem to recall hearing/reading somewhere that he dislikes DA, based on that alone I wouldn't even want him on the team developing the Codex let alone in the lead role since the man clearly has no ability to keep his personal opinion from affecting his work (I give you WHFB Orcs for a subpar list for an army he dislikes and C:SM for an OTT fanboi fest for his beloved UM).

[Tanhausen]

See, in my case I don't even know most of the "famous" GW writers. When Alessio left, I had to ask who he was...

 

In the case of the GK, there has been FLAGRANT rules mistakes (don't know/care that much about fluff). I think GW is taking a dangerous turn by pushing the product to the street without enough testing and just going the FAQ way around the short-falls. They did it with the DE (what was it... 1 month after the codex, they got a FAQ?) and the same will happen with the GK.

 

I'm no game designer (please Ian, chip in!!!), but I'm sure it isn't THAT hard to see some stuff simply is waaaay too broken.

[Marshal Wilhelm]

he would probably make Rowboat Girlyman the Dark Angels spiritual liege like he did with the Blood Angels. (I think that's what games workshop get for letting someone with a complete ****-on for Ultramarines free reign over fluff.)

 

citations please.. for both points..

and for clarification its Roboute Guilliman

 

You're correct about the spelling but there is nothing on the forum rules about not being allowed to make a joke, is there? I'll change it just to be safe. Also, sorry, it was Rogal Dorn not Sanguinius and I Quote

 

"I supported the codex reformation from the beginning out of respect for Roboute Guilliman, who is my spiritual liege. Since my own knowledge of warfare is severely lacking I was overjoyed when my Legion was given the opportunity to learn from a more competent general's experience. My only regrets are that we, rather than they, were charged with protecting Terra, and that thanks to my inferior gene-seed my sons can never be true Ultramarines." -Rogal Dorn, primarch of the Imperial Fists.

 

and also just to prove that Matt Ward has a biased outlook for the Ultramarines and is basically allowed to write what he wants.... Just read all the quotes in the SM Dex from the Ultramarines special characters :P

 

∞ ;)

 

Okay, you have to answer this question:

Do you play either Blood Angels or Imperial Fists?

 

If you don't, this is especially delicious, more delicious, in fact, than a gundam wallpaper to a Tau fanboi. Hilarious. A+

[Isiah]

Generally, I think Matt Ward is a creative force for good. Although some of his background might not be to everyone's tastes, and he does make the odd unilateral rule decision that makes you wince -- overall it does add much needed f flavour and variety to gaming and list-building. I disagree that he's anymore 'turgid' than any other writer -- I've always thought that was de rigueur for the 40K world anyway :P

 

But ultimately, whoever gets involved, and I confess here not to be particularly interested in the intricacies of GW writers/personalities most of whom I don't know, the Unforgiven need a good pepping up as they've become somewhat boring, to bring them more into the limelight and back to being a 'favourite' choice for gamers to pick up.

 

If that means it's down to MW then so be it. Much rather him than a 'Jervis-style' writer who IMHO is all for over-simplification, dumbing down, less choice and a general blandness ;).

 

Cheers

I

[HsojVvad]

This thread is fast becoming a very unconstructive and entirely based on supposition. I am not sure how the fact that a codex is not just written by a single person but assessed, paly tested and overviewed by an antire team can be thrust in to the center of this discussion. The lead writer obviously takes the lead.... but the ultimate product is presented with the full backing of the design team.

 

I haven't yet read the GKN Codex so am a little left out in the lurch but I htink he did a pretty good job in writing the Codex Spacemarines and Codex Blood Angels. Most units fit with the backgorund fluff. More depth to characters and units.

 

Anyway just my humble opinion...

 

SG

You bring up a good point, so instead of just saying Mathew Ward, maybe it should be said Mathew Ward and Team then. Same thing would still apply then, would you want Mathew Ward and Team doing the fluff for the DA. Again, being a DA player, I refused to buy the SM codex so I can't say what fluff Matt Ward and team wrote in there, but hearing it, and then reading the GK codex, and some of the stuff he did for other codicies, I am so worried. So far except for the Blood Angel codex, it looks like Matt Ward is doing all the Space Marine codicies.

 

It doesn't mean he will be doing DA but you just never know.

 

If that means it's down to MW then so be it. Much rather him than a 'Jervis-style' writer who IMHO is all for over-simplification, dumbing down, less choice and a general blandness ;).

 

Cheers

I

Wouldn't that be because of the direction 5th edtion was suppose to go in? After the crying and complaining done by Space Marine players, GW did a 180 and changed direction on how it would be played. So is it really fair to blame Jervis? Then again the only experiance I have with Jervis is the DA codex.

 

I am not sure if I read this since it was along time ago, but didn't Jervis once say that the DA are in his heart and he would be doing the future codex for DA and wouldn't let anyone else do it? Again this was a few years ago, and my memory is fuzzy, but this is what I can rememeber. So not sure if he would be the next writer or not.

[FerociousBeast]

So, when we start slinging mud at specific individuals, it would be worth understanding that those individuals are creating the background and rules with the full support of their creative team.

This is often said, but if this is true, why is it that the best received of the 5th edition codexes (at least as far as fluff goes) are, in order from best to worst: Dark Eldar, Space Wolves, Imperial Guard, Tyranids, Space Marines, Blood Angels, Grey Knights? The first two were written by Kelly, the second two by Cruddace, and the caboose is solidly Ward. If you've studied writing (and perhaps even if you haven't), you can DEFINITELY tell a difference between the codexes, especially between Phil Kelly and the other two. He's just several cuts above. He is the rare games designer who can not only write interesting rules, but also interesting fluff... AND he gets the 40k setting to boot. I think Cruddace gets 40k, also, but Ward just doesn't. Think about it. He started in LotR, moved on to Fantasy, and only then was he moved to 40k. Then he starts writing things and saying things that almost no one has appreciated. It's clear he just doesn't get 40k, and should be given other responsibilities.

 

sure his fluff is normally cartoonish, but thats not why you buy a dex, you buy a dex so you can have rules to use for your tabletop battles..

Speak for yourself. I don't have enough time or money anymore to play the game or buy models, so my interest in 40k of late has been pretty much only the fluff. Since Ward has been running rampant through the fluff of some of the most cherished institutions in 40k, that has significantly dampened my enthusiasm for the hobby as a whole.

[Reldn]

sure his fluff is normally cartoonish, but thats not why you buy a dex, you buy a dex so you can have rules to use for your tabletop battles..

 

Speak for yourself. I don't have enough time or money anymore to play the game or buy models, so my interest in 40k of late has been pretty much only the fluff. Since Ward has been running rampant through the fluff of some of the most cherished institutions in 40k, that has significantly dampened my enthusiasm for the hobby as a whole.

 

This. I only buy the codices for the fluff as well. That's the main thing that drew me into this universe as I'm not much of a gamer or painter so the fluff is what keeps me in it and having such a good time...and Ward's treatment of fluff is kinda killing that enjoyment.

 

But to be on topic for the original question: No, I hope he stays far far away from the DA fluff.

[Race Bannon]

It's the internet, I have a voice! :P

 

Since their creation the GK were over-the-top. They should be. But they should have stayed as a small option to be used when the need was greatest. In game terms this does NOT mean as a separate army. Ward writes 40K fiction as it should be - insane events with heroism that defines logic and reality ... because that's what heroes do (ref: Indiana Jones) ... it just so happens that the Grey Knights are nothing but heroes and better than the mighty Dark A ... everyone else. :D

 

SO - would I want him to write the fluff? Heck yes! The Dark Angeles would read like Illuminati or Dan Brown's Mason's while carrying bolt guns and that's very cool in my opinion. But give him to the rules making and the DA would probably get ruined in some way. I just pray he gets advice along the way - I am loving the Kadillus novel and I think Thorpe has a solid grasp of how the Dark Angels "work", as an example.

 

And keep him to the Codecies, I get my fluff from the novels.

[Octavulg]

Matt Ward has added nothing to the game that you or I couldn't have added. His rules may be better balanced than some in the past (which I think is definitely open to debate). But his fluff is crap (over-the-top-purpleness is a seasoning, not the whole damn meal). Most of the people here who don't seem to mind him also seem to not actually care about what he writes because they're focused on the rules. Which is fine, but doesn't make his work any better.

 

The people going on about the difficulty of his work and how it's all a team project overlook first that it would be his team, but second that codex designing is not that hard. People on this board do it all the time, and without the benefit of a bunch of experienced game designers to ask for advice. Add one or two new concepts extrapolated from existing fluff or that fill gaps in the army list and improve lackluster units. Make sure it's more powerful than the last one. Knock off for lunch.

 

Plus, everyone who keeps going on about his balanced rulesets might want to ask some Fantasy players what the Daemons army book did to them.

[Tanhausen]

Warning: not being blunt.

 

Person A: buys the codex for the fluff, never touches another GW. Spent 25 Euros

 

Person B: buys codex for the rules, gets some models, probably paints, hits the boards in and out... Spent 500 Euros

 

Honestly, who do you guys think GW cares about?

 

Sure, people get BL stuff and on... so do players :)

 

All in all, maybe there's a bit too much of hard feelings. DA are not what GW says they are, but what we make of them. Only us talk to them, get enraged, love them and, under extreme circunstances, paint them :)

[Bryan Blaire]

No.

 

Simple as that.

[Iron Lord]

If he did write the codex, from what I've seen, the DA would get most of the things that the SMs and BA get.

 

Big lists of HQ equipment options. At least one character that's a squad upgrade. A timeline. The Land Raider Redeemer.

 

I doubt that they'd get, mechanically, worse instead of better.

 

Fluffwise- Ward seems to be a fan of "long lone warrior combats"- with Calgar defending a gate against an ork horde for a day and a night, Draigo defending a mountain pass against a daemon horde for two days.

 

So one might expect somebody in the DA codex to do the same thing.