2000AD Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Coraxs' legion was being slaughtered all around him, he quite understandably had more priorities then trying to fight two of his brothers. The only two primarchs stated to be better than corax in combat are horus, sanguinius and angron. (Quoted in ravens flight) Wrong. What Corax actually states is that the only people he believes could best Angron in HH are Horus and maybe Sanguinius. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728186 Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiberium40k Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 In a straight up fight, Curze tore Corax a new hole in TFH and Curze was obviously just toying with him. He did nothing of the kind. Curze just blocked a killing blow meant for Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728326 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noctus Cornix Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Ya, my bad on that part. Just had that section of the book another read. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728676 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Guilliman and Fulgrim again but this time Fulgrim as himself and no daemon... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728718 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 and thank you Andiana and Tib40k for beating me to the punch on the Corax v Konrad fight. i am not dismissing Konrad, i just dont believe his strenghts lay in direct confrontation. the 2 sources we have of him directly fighting somebody have both been sneak attacks. i think that hints something about his character. Russ v Angron...i wonder who would win. before PB changed the underlying current in the Wolves, i would have said Angron hands down. but post PB i am not so sure now. I would like to think that the utter lack of control by Angron could be manipulated by a very calculating Russ. in the end, who knows? only the Shadow. WLK Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728782 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tycho6 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I've been wondering about Russ too. I'm sure I've read somewhere, maybe on here, that Russ is 'the Primarch killer. Given that he was pretty evenly matched with the Lion and is never described by any of the others as capable of beating "x" Primarch, it is always Sanguinius and Horus that seem to be named. I suppose it comes down to how they would fight. I assume that H and S seem to top their brothers' lists for hardest (to use a schoolboy term!) because they would think their way through the fight and expolit their strenghts and the other's weakness. Ang and Russ seem to be more brawlers and therefore are more likely to be bested by H or S the longer a fight lasted. Given Russ' history with Jonson, presumably he could be in that group too. I'd guess Lorgar would be bottom of the pile, given his dislike of soldiering, and while he may still have the potential of the others, he doesn't have the experience to last in a fight. It would be nice to learn something of Khan and Vulkan too. Just my 2 pence worth! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728874 Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Just to say only Russ and Sanguinius ever beat Horus in a duel... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728899 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 I've been wondering about Russ too. I'm sure I've read somewhere, maybe on here, that Russ is 'the Primarch killer. Given that he was pretty evenly matched with the Lion and is never described by any of the others as capable of beating "x" Primarch, it is always Sanguinius and Horus that seem to be named. I suppose it comes down to how they would fight. I assume that H and S seem to top their brothers' lists for hardest (to use a schoolboy term!) because they would think their way through the fight and expolit their strenghts and the other's weakness. Ang and Russ seem to be more brawlers and therefore are more likely to be bested by H or S the longer a fight lasted. Given Russ' history with Jonson, presumably he could be in that group too. Russ has never been called a 'Primarch Killer' and IMO there are several that would come out on top against him..... leaving aside Lion knocking him out. Russ is a brawler.... Angron is anything but..... just like Sparticus was anything but. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2728944 Share on other sites More sharing options...
asmunder Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 All of you guys are missing the big one here: Alpharius v. Omegon :blink:! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2729020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
BassWave Posted April 18, 2011 Share Posted April 18, 2011 Guilliman and Fulgrim again but this time Fulgrim as himself and no daemon... I agree, and have Ferrus vs Fulgrim also without that pesky daemon :rollseyes: Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2729033 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 Most people seem to put Lorgar at the bottom of the list but wouldn't it make more sense for Alpharius to be at the bottom? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2729341 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 You can't count Alpharius alone. The Primarch is Alpharius Omegon, there's two of them and they should fight together as one. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2729405 Share on other sites More sharing options...
The 13th Goat Posted April 19, 2011 Share Posted April 19, 2011 The one fight we would all love to see: The two unknown Primarchs In my opinion, a good fight would be against their "counter parts": Russ Vs Angron: Pure aggression Corax Vs Curze: As stated plainly in TFH, Curze is like a twisted version of Corax. Both could easily have turned into each other! Lion Vs Fulgrim: I don't know why, but I feel the Lion is the other half of the Fulgrim coin.Both great tacticians, but coming from different angles. Ferrus Mannus Vs Perturabo: Technological titans. Vulkan Vs Mortarion: Both known as stubborn and unrelenting, where the Death Guard do it out of duty, the Salamanders do is out of compassion. Khan Vs Horus: Again, leaders from the front. Dorn Vs Logar: The Emperor's Fist vs Chaos's Mouthpeice The final four I'm having difficulty with. You cant have a fair fight with; Twins(AlphaOmegon), someone with wings (Sanguinuis), Psychic Master (Magnus) and being more boring than moss (Guiliman) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2729554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Balthamal Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 One rather obvious one missing from this list would be Horus - Sanguinius. No OTT daemon power from Horus and no wounds from 55 days of battle from Sanguinius. The top two showdown! --- Reason I state the top two there, well everyone acknowledges Horus as the best and Sanguinius is one of the few to best him. It's mentioned in previous sources (don't quote me) that Sanguinius possessed the same sort of berzerking rage as Angron but whereas Angron was controlled and defined by that rage, Sangiunius merely used it when required Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730727 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Pre-Heresy Horus vs Angron. Horus is more cool-headed, so maybe he'd have more opportunities to explore a gaps in Angron's fighting style, but one has to remember the World Eaters' Primarch spent a good deal of time as a gladiator, fighting all manner of opponents. As far as Dorn vs Konrad goes, I wouldn't put all my money on the latter. For once, he doesn't suffer from all the weakening lore Dorn does (defeats, bad decisions, gettin his behind unexpectedly handed to him by a psycho brother, being killed by regular Chaos Marines...). My guess is he'd still be a very imposing, technically capable fighter. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730757 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 It's mentioned in previous sources (don't quote me) that Sanguinius possessed the same sort of berzerking rage as Angron but whereas Angron was controlled and defined by that rage, Sangiunius merely used it when required A) I dont recall ever reading that B.) That doesnt necessarily make him more effective. And actually I would disagree with you. Using Khorne as an example - his daemons are widely viewed as being the best HH fighters in the galaxy. They use their fury to make them better fighters..... they are not mindless killing machines. In the Liber Chaotica it addresses this point..... people assume that the daemons/minions of Khorne are mindless brutes, incapable of strategy, whereas the reality is a Bloodthirster is actually a superb tactician....... its just that its tactics are geared towards the anhiliation of his opponents..... a subtle but key difference. This is Angron. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730771 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I would like to see some Guilliman fights, for the sole reason to show some of his martial prowess most of his detractors are unwilling to attribute to him. What most people who have no interest in the Ultramarines (or flat out dislike them) forget or ignore is that they come from a homeworld with a very strong martial culture, more so than on most other Primarch's homeworlds (Fenris being one other very martial homeworld that comes to mind). Think spartans in space. But that part of their background is usually downplayed (and only really elaborated in their Index Astartes article), since Guilliman's political work was so much more influential and relevant than his kill count. For the two Primarch vs. Primarch fights Guilliman got into he did not make a bad show. He dispatched Alpharius without much trouble (if that account of the battle for Eskrador is at all credible). There is no accout from his battle against Fulgrim, other than the ultimate outcome, but for fighting a giant snake bodied daemon primatch with four arms, each wielding a daemon blade, merely suffering a small wound at the neck does not sound that bad. That his body was not taken by the Emperor's Children (they had stolen Horus' body after the Heresy, for example) and that the account describes that the Ultramarines were able to retreive his body after the smoke from the fight cleared leads some to believe that he may have been able to banish Fulgrim while suffering the neck wound. Edit: I think a short story just showing Guilliman sparring with Russ would be interesting. The viking chief versus the centurion, all while they coment on each other's technique. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730799 Share on other sites More sharing options...
d@n Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I dont think Angron or his legion are known for being skilled warriors or should i say more skilled then the othere legions. There butchers and being angry makes you worse at fighting, hence all the mind games when boxers are building upto a fight. Dont confuss agression with prowess. The world eaters and angron was created to slaught not have skilled combat. Russ i believe would find a way of beating any primarch as thats what he was made to do. Im pretty sure it was him who the emperor sent to deal with the 2 lost primarchs, although i cant remember were i know that from, and its stated in prospero burns that the wolves are the Emperors executioners, thats why they were there in force during The Council of Nikaea just incase anything got out of hand.It is suggested that each primarch is built to an elemant of the emperors skill,personality, soul ect and russ was created to kill other primarchs if need be. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730828 Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 I dont think Angron or his legion are known for being skilled warriors or should i say more skilled then the othere legions. There butchers and being angry makes you worse at fighting, hence all the mind games when boxers are building upto a fight. Dont confuss agression with prowess. The world eaters and angron was created to slaught not have skilled combat.Russ i believe would find a way of beating any primarch as thats what he was made to do. Im pretty sure it was him who the emperor sent to deal with the 2 lost primarchs, although i cant remember were i know that from, and its stated in prospero burns that the wolves are the Emperors executioners, thats why they were there in force during The Council of Nikaea just incase anything got out of hand.It is suggested that each primarch is built to an elemant of the emperors skill,personality, soul ect and russ was created to kill other primarchs if need be. Absolute and total gibberish. You clearly have a poor grasp of your fluff. The World Eaters = Khorne Both are renowned as being the best HH troops around. Thats a fact. If what Khorne did was so bad how come his troops are so good at what they do? Like I said..... it is a common and ignorant misconception that Khorne and Angron were mindless lunatics with no tactical insight. They were superlative battlefield tacticians. They didnt have the diplomatic finesse of others...... because it didnt serve their purpose...... ie) the best methodology to kill the maximum number of the enemy.... END OF. Read your background..... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 A gladiator is not trained for slaughter. Rather, with enough diversity in adversaries, he's likely to become the best one-on-one melee fighter around. Even if none of Angron's fellows from his gladiatorial days made it to World Eater, we can assume they were already melee oriented, as that aspect seems to have always been in their Primarch's geneseed (strength, ferocity) and practice makes the master. I haven't read "After De'shea", so if this is mentioned there, could someone please confirm this? Though the usual 'brute' stereotype is that of a strong, stupid and slow fighter, in reality, blind fury might make you fall in certain traps, but it makes you faster, less prone to distractions, unrelenting and more instinctive. Which is to say, you employ whatever techniques without any mental hindrance. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2730909 Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxjace Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 :lol: lets think about this here all in all i think the best primarchs would be... sanguinus horus gullimen Corax Vulkan Russ Pertubero These guys would be top of their class, they were either not killed at all, or only killed due to primarch fights that were very close. angron was banished by grey knights fulgrim succumbed to a demon Logar was a book worm not a fighter Curze was killed by a human and he let it happen Lion was almost bested by luther is in some depression coma kahn lost to the dark eldar ROUND 2 DEBATE! Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2731043 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Most people seem to put Lorgar at the bottom of the list... They do. But as I'm fond of saying, The First Heretic was Lorgar at the lowest ebb of his entire existence. Not that there is a "list" really (all primarch against primarch fights come down to duels between equals, won and lost over circumstances), but Lorgar is far from the bottom of it come the end of the Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2731057 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greyall Posted April 20, 2011 Share Posted April 20, 2011 Well, if he was the only Primarch who never wanted to be a warrior, you'll need a good snap to his front lobe to have him suddendly turn into a combat powerhouse. 40K official stats - How strong/fast/powerful a character is - are about as easy to follow as an epileptic weasel on speed, anyway. One minute a Primarch is the world champion, the next one there is a daemon putting him to shame. Which is kind of a nice trait to lore, anyway. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2731067 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sons of Horus Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 I'm guessing daemon powers for Lorgar then :P he does become a prince after all. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2731746 Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted April 21, 2011 Share Posted April 21, 2011 How about Vulkan versus Manus? Two craftsmen, duking it out with weapons made by their own hands to capitalize on all their strengths? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/227687-primarch-v-primarch-round-1-fight/page/2/#findComment-2731751 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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