guthmaer Posted April 23, 2011 Share Posted April 23, 2011 i imagine russ v angron would come down to who wants it more . ther both got smarts and both can be berzerk both brought up with battle so it depends on their drive and reason to fight like angron wanting to kill someone russ loves for fun russ would have the upper hand because hes fighting for a cause while it can happen the other way too.every primarch wil have strengths and weakness curze would probably be able to exploit sly openings or kick you when down.magnus pshchic i imagine dorn being very defensife and countering with a hammer blow.im a space wolf player so im biased with russ all the way but i like guilliman he seems confident and sure of him self not needing to posture .in my experiance of life the bully and the swagger and over confident usally are the weaker.so id back guillman too . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Scipio Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Aside from Horus, Magnus comes across as the Emperors favoured son....... in fact he knows more about the universe than all of his brothers combined. Magnus = Serious bad ass!! :P Sure, but a very dumb one, who underestimates the power of the Warp, overestimates his power and neglects the wisdom of his ..father" leading to his Legion destroyed and exiled and the Imperium in danger, its greates project destroyed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c-wrex Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 How about some nonstandard match-ups? The Lion versus Corax. Magnus versus Perturabo. Sanguinius mano e mano with Mortarion. Guilliman throwing down with Ferrus Manus. Try those on, fellahs! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted April 24, 2011 Share Posted April 24, 2011 Sure, but a very dumb one, who underestimates the power of the Warp, overestimates his power and neglects the wisdom of his ..father" leading to his Legion destroyed and exiled and the Imperium in danger, its greates project destroyed. Disagree... Arrogant... Yes Naive.... Maybe Dumb..... never in a billion years. After the Emperor the most intelligent 'human' ever. And as for the so called 'Emperors wisdom'....... this is a guy who kept his sons in the dark about the most pointless of facts (would it have been SO bad to tell them why he was going back to Terra?) and then couldnt forsee the Heresy and refused to believe it even when he was warned by his most intelligent of sons? Sure Magnus had his faults...... but if youre talking dumb bstards.... then I would argue that the Emperor deserves the title more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Scipio Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Sure, but a very dumb one, who underestimates the power of the Warp, overestimates his power and neglects the wisdom of his ..father" leading to his Legion destroyed and exiled and the Imperium in danger, its greates project destroyed. Disagree... Arrogant... Yes Naive.... Maybe Dumb..... never in a billion years. After the Emperor the most intelligent 'human' ever. And as for the so called 'Emperors wisdom'....... this is a guy who kept his sons in the dark about the most pointless of facts (would it have been SO bad to tell them why he was going back to Terra?) and then couldnt forsee the Heresy and refused to believe it even when he was warned by his most intelligent of sons? Sure Magnus had his faults...... but if youre talking dumb bstards.... then I would argue that the Emperor deserves the title more. He was dumb, because he overestimated himself. He was intelligent mostly, but your attitude can make the most intelligent people just acting dumb. You dont know if there was a reason not to tell his Primarchs. Even more so a thought of: ,,Everything is running fine. I will retreat a bit. Must I tell my primarchs? Or will half of them rebel against me if they dont know when I will be back?" You see how stupid this thought would be. And wait.... somebody is not wise if he doesnt forsee something? Thats not the definition of wise and drops back on the feet of Magnus very much, that was made a playtoy of the Chaosgods to orchastrate his own downfall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2000AD Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Artein Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Half of the Primarchs was warned about incoming Heresy. Curze knew. Fulgrim knew (from Curze and from Eldrad). Dorn knew (from Fulgrim). Magnus knew. Russ knew. Alpharius knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legatus Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Fulgrim and Dorn didn't know, they just heard their mentally unstable brother ramble about things. Where did Russ know it from? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
calgar101 Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 Kasper Hawser from Prospero Burns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted April 25, 2011 Share Posted April 25, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaxjace Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 are we going to scrap about it now? :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 are we going to scrap about it know? ;) We could, but i'll get tired of going in circles around 3-4 posts. :D WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK That version of events has been contridicted by both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns however. Alot of stuff from Collected Visions has been contridicted by the Heresy novels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK That version of events has been contridicted by both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns however. Alot of stuff from Collected Visions has been contridicted by the Heresy novels. I would have hate to miss something this huge (and would hate it more for it to have been retconned out). the event i am refering to happened when Magnus first met the Emperor. looking at page 434 of A Thousand Sons shows the arrogance of Magnus pretty clearly as he talks down to Ahrimn about the "daemons" of the warp. page 343 has Ahriman saying that Magnus knew of the Warp beings before the Emperor showed them to him. he had seen them. At this Magnus grows angry, and tells him to never repeat those words. these are just two instances found flipping through the book, but had i the patience or desire i have no doubt i would find more. these both support what was said in the Collected Visions. and finally, the warning the Emperor gives at the Council fo Nikea. he goes into great detail of what would occur if his ruling was denied. Magnus had already planned out his course, which strikes me as both arrogant and stupid. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK That version of events has been contridicted by both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns however. Alot of stuff from Collected Visions has been contridicted by the Heresy novels. I would have hate to miss something this huge (and would hate it more for it to have been retconned out). the event i am refering to happened when Magnus first met the Emperor. looking at page 434 of A Thousand Sons shows the arrogance of Magnus pretty clearly as he talks down to Ahrimn about the "daemons" of the warp. page 343 has Ahriman saying that Magnus knew of the Warp beings before the Emperor showed them to him. he had seen them. At this Magnus grows angry, and tells him to never repeat those words. these are just two instances found flipping through the book, but had i the patience or desire i have no doubt i would find more. these both support what was said in the Collected Visions. and finally, the warning the Emperor gives at the Council fo Nikea. he goes into great detail of what would occur if his ruling was denied. Magnus had already planned out his course, which strikes me as both arrogant and stupid. WLK Except as A Thousand Sons shows, his dealings with the warp where motivated primarily not by being ''enthralled with the warp'' but by a desire to save his Sons from destruction of their own genetics. That's what I was referring to. The only other choice would have to watch his Sons die from horrible mutations. Not much of a choice really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK That version of events has been contridicted by both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns however. Alot of stuff from Collected Visions has been contridicted by the Heresy novels. I would have hate to miss something this huge (and would hate it more for it to have been retconned out). the event i am refering to happened when Magnus first met the Emperor. looking at page 434 of A Thousand Sons shows the arrogance of Magnus pretty clearly as he talks down to Ahrimn about the "daemons" of the warp. page 343 has Ahriman saying that Magnus knew of the Warp beings before the Emperor showed them to him. he had seen them. At this Magnus grows angry, and tells him to never repeat those words. these are just two instances found flipping through the book, but had i the patience or desire i have no doubt i would find more. these both support what was said in the Collected Visions. and finally, the warning the Emperor gives at the Council fo Nikea. he goes into great detail of what would occur if his ruling was denied. Magnus had already planned out his course, which strikes me as both arrogant and stupid. WLK Except as A Thousand Sons shows, his dealings with the warp where motivated primarily not by being ''enthralled with the warp'' but by a desire to save his Sons from destruction of their own genetics. That's what I was referring to. The only other choice would have to watch his Sons die from horrible mutations. Not much of a choice really. If he met the beings of the Warp prior to meeting the Emperor in flesh, then that was also before he had been given the Thousand Sons legion. He had already explored the warp and met/dealt with the beings inside before his great "I know more about creating stable Space Marines than the Emperor does and must save them" moment. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 You see how stupid this thought would be. Heres something to put your stupidity to bed once and for all...... The Emperors failure to tell the primarchs (even his own 2ic Horus) why he was returning to Terra caused the Heresy and his own downfall. FACT. The Emperor was warned about Horus but failed to act. FACT. END OF DISCUSSION actually, i have to kinda weigh in on the "Dumb" side. if not dumb, then arrogant. according to the Collected Visions book, the Emp warned Magnus specifically of the dangers of the warp and the beings which called it home. he then made magnus swear to stop his sorcerous studies. Magnus swore he would, but was already entrallked by the power and beauty of the warp. so Magnus WAS warned of the dangers of the warp from the Emperor himelf. he then disregarded the knowledge given to him and the sworn oaths he made and thought he knew better. WLK That version of events has been contridicted by both A Thousand Sons and Prospero Burns however. Alot of stuff from Collected Visions has been contridicted by the Heresy novels. I would have hate to miss something this huge (and would hate it more for it to have been retconned out). the event i am refering to happened when Magnus first met the Emperor. looking at page 434 of A Thousand Sons shows the arrogance of Magnus pretty clearly as he talks down to Ahrimn about the "daemons" of the warp. page 343 has Ahriman saying that Magnus knew of the Warp beings before the Emperor showed them to him. he had seen them. At this Magnus grows angry, and tells him to never repeat those words. these are just two instances found flipping through the book, but had i the patience or desire i have no doubt i would find more. these both support what was said in the Collected Visions. and finally, the warning the Emperor gives at the Council fo Nikea. he goes into great detail of what would occur if his ruling was denied. Magnus had already planned out his course, which strikes me as both arrogant and stupid. WLK Except as A Thousand Sons shows, his dealings with the warp where motivated primarily not by being ''enthralled with the warp'' but by a desire to save his Sons from destruction of their own genetics. That's what I was referring to. The only other choice would have to watch his Sons die from horrible mutations. Not much of a choice really. If he met the beings of the Warp prior to meeting the Emperor in flesh, then that was also before he had been given the Thousand Sons legion. He had already explored the warp and met/dealt with the beings inside before his great "I know more about creating stable Space Marines than the Emperor does and must save them" moment. WLK There does not seem to be any indication he dealt with them before his attempt to save his Sons. And Magnus's descision to save his Sons does not appear to be motivated by arrogance, as you seem to imply, but by desperation, he quite literally had no real choice. He did that or watched them die. He could do nothing else. His descision to them does not seem to be affected by any great love or enthrallment of the warp powers. Indeed, there is some implication the Emperor knew that the Thousand Sons where going to be affected badly by mutations, as his naming of them shows. In fact going off by page 343 I don't much there to be very much any arrogance in Magnus's words. He is quite clear on how he intends to bear all his consequences (Not his Sons) and that the daemons are simply a name. If anything he is more naive than arrogant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 "No," whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. "You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths and seen them " page 342 "Long ago, I encountered powers in the Great Ocean I thought to be sunken, conceptual landmasses, but over time I came to know them as vast intelligences, beings of such enormous power that they dwarf even the brightest stars of our own world. Such beings can be bargained with." Magnus "What could such powerful beings possibly want?" asked Ahriman. "And could you ever really be sure that you have the best of such a bargain?" "I can,", Magnus assured him. "I have bargained with them before. This will be no different." page 435 These quotes, supported by the Collected Visions, are the basis of my opinion. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 "No," whispered Ahriman with sudden, instinctive clarity. "You already knew of it. When the Emperor showed you its wonders and dangers you feigned not to know, but you had already peered into its depths and seen them " page 342 "Long ago, I encountered powers in the Great Ocean I thought to be sunken, conceptual landmasses, but over time I came to know them as vast intelligences, beings of such enormous power that they dwarf even the brightest stars of our own world. Such beings can be bargained with." Magnus "What could such powerful beings possibly want?" asked Ahriman. "And could you ever really be sure that you have the best of such a bargain?" "I can,", Magnus assured him. "I have bargained with them before. This will be no different." page 435 These quotes, supported by the Collected Visions, are the basis of my opinion. WLK I have already read those quotes. The first is mere speculation by Ahriman, he saw them, but that does not mean he dealt with them before the Emperor. As for the second we already know that Magnus had no other choice but to watch his Sons die in the first deal, by the time he made the second deal to his knowledge everything he could do was justify. He simply had no reason to doubt otherwise. Empirically speaking he was justifed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 3, 2011 Share Posted May 3, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Oh no, we've had this discussion before, I recall how it went. This is nothing new to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Oh no, we've had this discussion before, I recall how it went. This is nothing new to me. apparently it went nowhere as here we are again! ;) WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Oh no, we've had this discussion before, I recall how it went. This is nothing new to me. apparently it went nowhere as here we are again! ;) WLK Actually no, I distinctly recall having the upper hand in the last discussion, in which you declined to continue it saying that you where waiting for Prospero Burns to come out and tell the Space Wolf side of the story. It did come out and it provided much ammunition for me to use in my debates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Kjaran Coldheart Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Oh no, we've had this discussion before, I recall how it went. This is nothing new to me. apparently it went nowhere as here we are again! ;) WLK Actually no, I distinctly recall having the upper hand in the last discussion, in which you declined to continue it saying that you where waiting for Prospero Burns to come out and tell the Space Wolf side of the story. It did come out and it provided much ammunition for me to use in my debates. thats because Prospero Burns did a piss poor job in covering nikea among other things...i remain convinced of my opinion. doesnt make me right, but until i see more, i am stuck. WLK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gree Posted May 4, 2011 Share Posted May 4, 2011 okay, those are your beliefs, and i have mine. we're not going to agree here. (thats half the fun). WLK Oh no, we've had this discussion before, I recall how it went. This is nothing new to me. apparently it went nowhere as here we are again! ;) WLK Actually no, I distinctly recall having the upper hand in the last discussion, in which you declined to continue it saying that you where waiting for Prospero Burns to come out and tell the Space Wolf side of the story. It did come out and it provided much ammunition for me to use in my debates. thats because Prospero Burns did a piss poor job in covering nikea among other things...i remain convinced of my opinion. doesnt make me right, but until i see more, i am stuck. WLK I refer not to Nikea, but the relevations at the end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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