Age of Darkness - Rebirth

[Ethrion]

- Warning spoilers ahead for those that haven't read Rebirth -

 

 

 

So having just finished 'Rebirth' I couldn't help but notice what seems to be another piece of evidence pointing to the Blood Ravens being the descendents of the Thousand Sons. At the very end of the story a member of the Corvidae cult, Sgt. Arvida, is determined to survive and discover why his Legion was destroyed. He breathes the words "knowledge is power" before disappearing.

 

Now we know there are plenty of other links between the Thousand Sons and the Blood Ravens, I forget where I saw it on this site but someone wrote up a very good bullet point list of all the facts so far. But this seems to be a mighty strong indication that they are indeed descendants.

 

And even more telling perhaps is the mythical 'Great Father' of the Blood Ravens Azariah Vidya. Could this name be an evolution or a mis-spelling of Arvida? It's quite possible that over the years what with the records of the Blood Ravens being destroyed, missing or classified that his name morphed. Just as did places on Terra such as Indonesia into Yndonesia and America into Merica.

 

Rebirth does state that the ship or fleet of the Thousand Sons that returned to Prospero is still in orbit so quite possibly this Sgt. Arvida got off planet again and escaped.

 

Just a few of my thoughts after reading...

[A D-B]

I was pretty amazed they added this into the antho, to be entirely honest. I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

It's Relic's obvious hope that it's true, and it's every 40K newbie's dreamily easy way of making a Chapter "mysterious and interesting". That doesn't make it a universal truth throughout the license, though. There's a difference between being allowed to hint at something to generate interest, and have it actually be true.

 

Although, I'm tempted to do a novel about the bloodline of Inquisitors and Adeptus Terra workers that have failed to study Blood Raven gene-seed for the last Ten. Thousand. Years. without once saying "Hey, this looks a bit like... Cindy, get me the Grey Knights on the phone, right now."

[Mykra]

I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

Is it because they've just been to blunt about it? I read the points after this quote and it makes sense, I'd just hate to see it fade into Squat territory.

 

I absolutely love this new direction they've taken with the Thousand Sons (I thought the novel was one of the finest examples of world building in a shared-world setting), and it's not exactly been subtle the last couple of years between the connection of the 'two' Chapters. I like the grey area as much as anyone to stimulate discussion and bring up plenty of 'What If's' but I would hate to see them just abandon it.

[Pulse]

And even more telling perhaps is the mythical 'Great Father' of the Blood Ravens Azariah Vidya. Could this name be an evolution or a mis-spelling of Arvida? It's quite possible that over the years what with the records of the Blood Ravens being destroyed, missing or classified that his name morphed.

It is probably this.

 

As for the Blood Ravens being decendants of the Thousand Sons, i think it is pretty nice to be fair.

[A D-B]

I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

Why's that?

 

Just wondering, I absolutely love this new direction they've taken with the Thousand Sons (I thought the novel was one of the finest examples of world building in a shared-world setting), and it's not exactly been subtle the last couple of years between the connection of the 'two' Chapters. I like the grey area as much as anyone to stimulate discussion and bring up plenty of 'What If's' but I would hate to see them just abandon it.

 

The reference in A Thousand Sons is actually to the Corvidae, according to Graham.

 

And I reckon we won't be seeing many more references because it's getting face-hammeringly unsubtle, lately. Subtle hints at an eternally unanswered possibility? Sure. Cool.

 

"TEEHEE LOOK AT THIS, HERE'S ANOTHER ONE"-style Easter Eggs all over the place? Hmmm, not so much. There's a reason GW themselves haven't confirmed it - and it's largely a Relic theme.

 

But we'll see.

[Pulse]

Ah back to the joys of GW and their policies of "ah yes, hinting is our game but never any solid facts".

[Mykra]

The reference in A Thousand Sons is actually to the Corvidae, according to Graham.

 

And I reckon we won't be seeing many more references because it's getting face-hammeringly unsubtle, lately. Subtle hints at an eternally unanswered possibility? Sure. Cool.

 

"TEEHEE LOOK AT THIS, HERE'S ANOTHER ONE"-style Easter Eggs all over the place? Hmmm, not so much. There's a reason GW themselves haven't confirmed it - and it's largely a Relic theme.

 

But we'll see.

 

Haha, got the edit in before your reply. I figured that was the reason, I am just a little jittery about them completely casting aside a plot-line because someone came out and said 'Oi! Over here, this! Look at this!' so I was just wondering why they would just ignore it instead of throwing a 'well, it could be this instead!' curve-ball as damage control.

[Commissar Joe]

I don't mind the hints myself because there's a sizeable contingent of DoW & DoWII players who have no other interaction with 40k fluff other than those games and their expansions.

[Another Random Geek]

I think they kind of have to go through with the Thousand Sons thing. Can you imagine conversation taking place in Dawn of War 3?

 

Angelos: Davian, as your new chapter master, I feel entitled to know the truth of the records you destroyed on Kronus.

Thule: Oh, they revealed the truth of our origins. They said we were another Ultramarine successor, but that's pretty lame don't you think?

Angelos: What? But what about our lost history and divergent gene-seed?

Thule: Yeah, it's funny what a ten-thousand year dark age can do to genetic replication and historical records keeping.

 

Maybe it's just because DoW got me into the hobby a few years back, but I'd hate to see all that Blood Raven buildup turn to nothing. Hopefully one day they'll even get their own tabletop rules in White Dwarf.

[Grandmaster Anaziel]

I think they kind of have to go through with the Thousand Sons thing. Can you imagine conversation taking place in Dawn of War 3?

 

Angelos: Davian, as your new chapter master, I feel entitled to know the truth of the records you destroyed on Kronus.

Thule: Oh, they revealed the truth of our origins. They said we were another Ultramarine successor, but that's pretty lame don't you think?

Angelos: What? But what about our lost history and divergent gene-seed?

Thule: Yeah, it's funny what a ten-thousand year dark age can do to genetic replication and historical records keeping.

 

Maybe it's just because DoW got me into the hobby a few years back, but I'd hate to see all that Blood Raven buildup turn to nothing. Hopefully one day they'll even get their own tabletop rules in White Dwarf.

 

XD I still think they are descended from the Word Bearers Legion.

Eliphas had a Blood Ravens banner on his back during the flashback to the Heresy in the opening of Dark Crusade.

He was wearing grey armor along with the rest of the Word Bearers.

[Gree]

I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

Why's that?

 

Just wondering, I absolutely love this new direction they've taken with the Thousand Sons (I thought the novel was one of the finest examples of world building in a shared-world setting), and it's not exactly been subtle the last couple of years between the connection of the 'two' Chapters. I like the grey area as much as anyone to stimulate discussion and bring up plenty of 'What If's' but I would hate to see them just abandon it.

 

The reference in A Thousand Sons is actually to the Corvidae, according to Graham.

 

And I reckon we won't be seeing many more references because it's getting face-hammeringly unsubtle, lately. Subtle hints at an eternally unanswered possibility? Sure. Cool.

 

"TEEHEE LOOK AT THIS, HERE'S ANOTHER ONE"-style Easter Eggs all over the place? Hmmm, not so much. There's a reason GW themselves haven't confirmed it - and it's largely a Relic theme.

 

But we'll see.

 

Well if the whole thing was intended to be a Corvidae refrence then why did Wraight write in such a link to the Blood Ravens? Correct me if I'm wrong, but does GW give everybody the plot of each short story and what must be done for it? Or did Wraight choose to put this in himself? (And yee I'm aware that he has a membership in this site, but he's not too active)

[A D-B]

I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

Why's that?

 

Just wondering, I absolutely love this new direction they've taken with the Thousand Sons (I thought the novel was one of the finest examples of world building in a shared-world setting), and it's not exactly been subtle the last couple of years between the connection of the 'two' Chapters. I like the grey area as much as anyone to stimulate discussion and bring up plenty of 'What If's' but I would hate to see them just abandon it.

 

The reference in A Thousand Sons is actually to the Corvidae, according to Graham.

 

And I reckon we won't be seeing many more references because it's getting face-hammeringly unsubtle, lately. Subtle hints at an eternally unanswered possibility? Sure. Cool.

 

"TEEHEE LOOK AT THIS, HERE'S ANOTHER ONE"-style Easter Eggs all over the place? Hmmm, not so much. There's a reason GW themselves haven't confirmed it - and it's largely a Relic theme.

 

But we'll see.

 

Well if the whole thing was intended to be a Corvidae refrence then why did Wraight write in such a link to the Blood Ravens? Correct me if I'm wrong, but does GW give everybody the plot of each short story and what must be done for it? Or did Wraight choose to put this in himself? (And yee I'm aware that he has a membership in this site, but he's not too active)

 

It's different for everyone, on every project. Some of them are special cases. Some of them are approved from On High. Others get in trouble for fact-checking, etc. Like all hives of human interest, there's no set process that 100% always applies to everything.

 

There's a lot I can't really talk about with this subject. Suffice to say, with my understanding of the IP as a contributor who talks to other contributors, I was stunned when BL acted to "confirm" the Blood Raven thing, and I suspect we won't be seeing much more of it in the future.

[A D-B]

Maybe it's just because DoW got me into the hobby a few years back, but I'd hate to see all that Blood Raven buildup turn to nothing. Hopefully one day they'll even get their own tabletop rules in White Dwarf.

 

I'm sure to DoW fans it's not only compelling, but also plausible. But this is one of those "My 40K doesn't really match your 40K" deals. I find it almost agonisingly unrealistic, a bit pointless, and no different from an IA article that says "These are a Lost Legion" or "These guys are descended from Sons of Horus gene-seed". It's exactly he same thing, but the video games - and later loose references - have made it a meme that sticks, whether it's true or not. I have no doubt THQ/Relic want it to come across as true, but that's not the same thing as it actually being fact. It could be argued that they're hinting as much as they're allowed.

 

Ultimately, the mystery itself is what's supposed to be interesting. The possibility of it (Cursed Founding, Dark Founding, etc.) is where the aura of interest lies. Flat-out stating it with heavy-handed "hints" is bad juju in my book. I'm curious as to whether there'll be any fallout from this behind the scenes, though I have no doubt that publically it'll be something the story is lauded for, as it's a popular fan theory.

[d@n]

Don't the 1000 sons have, by far the least stable gene seed of any chapter? and Havant gene seed got less stable since the heresy? as far as i can recount all the traitor legions had highly stable gene seeds so if your going to use gene's seed from a traitor legion why not the night lords or world eaters? or any other legion?

[A D-B]

Don't the 1000 sons have, by far the least stable gene seed of any chapter? and Havant gene seed got less stable since the heresy? as far as i can recount all the traitor legions had highly stable gene seeds so if your going to use gene's seed from a traitor legion why not the night lords or world eaters? or any other legion?

 

I could write a novel on all the reasons it makes no sense. It'd be long, too. But on the flip side, that's all of 40K. It's still lush.

 

However, Chris Wraight is an awesome writer. So don't take my Blood Raven IP hesitancy to reflect poorly on him. He rocks on toast.

 

EDIT: And for the record, it's not the concept itself I'm against. It's proving it with unsubtle hints. That way lies madness.

[d@n]

Do you think the stability of the gene seeds of traitors has something to do with there susceptibility to chaos? or there primarchs at least. I mean blood angels and space wolves both have gene seeds that mutate to a large degree and the raven guard imperial fists salamanders to a lesser extent. Dark angels fell to chaos on a large scale and they have stable gene seeds and it is hinted that the lion was hedging his bets on the heresy. The 1000 sons were pushed into chaos because they wouldn't have fallen by there own. The ultramarines legion was more then likely made up from gene seeds from the lost primarch's as well as there own so its a mute point with them. If the primarch's were created by the emperor use power borrowed from the ruinous powers as is hinted then it sort of makes sense.

[Commissar Joe]

Don't the 1000 sons have, by far the least stable gene seed of any chapter? and Havant gene seed got less stable since the heresy? as far as i can recount all the traitor legions had highly stable gene seeds so if your going to use gene's seed from a traitor legion why not the night lords or world eaters? or any other legion?

 

I always thought the instability was more due to their links with Tzeentch, rather than their gene-seed itself?

Personally, I have more trouble figuring out how a Thousand Sons splinter group could justify returning to the Imperium amongst themselves.

[Sabadin]

Personally, I have more trouble figuring out how a Thousand Sons splinter group could justify returning to the Imperium amongst themselves.

 

At the time that group left Prospero, there was only the Imperium. The Heresy occured while they were in warp transit, from their perspective they never actually "left" the Imperium.

[spu00sed]

I didn't get the link.

 

I thought the story was tying up the lose ends of what happened to the Tson's fleet afer they were sent away.

 

I saw it as a returnign home in shock story, trying to peice together what happened to their borthers, father and home.

[Ethrion]

I was pretty amazed they added this into the antho, to be entirely honest. I'm bringing it up at the next HH meeting, but I wouldn't be heart-attack-shocked to see literally no more Blood Ravens / Thousand Sons references from BL for a long, long while. If ever.

 

It's Relic's obvious hope that it's true, and it's every 40K newbie's dreamily easy way of making a Chapter "mysterious and interesting". That doesn't make it a universal truth throughout the license, though. There's a difference between being allowed to hint at something to generate interest, and have it actually be true.

 

Although, I'm tempted to do a novel about the bloodline of Inquisitors and Adeptus Terra workers that have failed to study Blood Raven gene-seed for the last Ten. Thousand. Years. without once saying "Hey, this looks a bit like... Cindy, get me the Grey Knights on the phone, right now."

 

Yeah it's a bit blatantly obvious now, compared to before when there were just vague links. Seems like there doesn't need to be anymore references as it's all but been said now. And yeah, you would think that the Inquisition would put two and two together after 10,000 years LOL!

[Pulse]

you would think that the Inquisition would put two and two together after 10,000 years LOL!

You know what GW are like with their ideas - personally i think they are strangling 40k with all the hints rather than laying down some solid fact. GW will eventually shoot themselves in the foot if they carry on loosely tying things together.

[Aegnor]

Thanks ADB for your comments. It's very interesting for us.

 

Spoiler below - stop reading here if that worries you.

 

 

I thought the reveal at the end was a bit too heavily handed and honestly a bit superfluous to what was already a bloody good short story. I really really liked the interrogation and interaction between the TSon and Khârn. That it was Khârn rocked me completely when I read it and it was a brilliant exposition of Khârn's state at that time. It would be a shame if the Blood Raven stuff overshadowed that.

 

Thought AoD was great in highlighting some authors that were new to me and I'd suspect many BL readers who have done great stories here and who I'll look out for - Wraight, French, etc.

[Ethrion]

Thanks ADB for your comments. It's very interesting for us.

 

Spoiler below - stop reading here if that worries you.

 

 

I thought the reveal at the end was a bit too heavily handed and honestly a bit superfluous to what was already a bloody good short story. I really really liked the interrogation and interaction between the TSon and Khârn. That it was Khârn rocked me completely when I read it and it was a brilliant exposition of Khârn's state at that time. It would be a shame if the Blood Raven stuff overshadowed that.

 

Thought AoD was great in highlighting some authors that were new to me and I'd suspect many BL readers who have done great stories here and who I'll look out for - Wraight, French, etc.

 

Yeah I agree, the revelation that it was World Eaters and not Space Wolves was very cool. Even more so when it was explained why Khârn was on Prospero in the first place. A sort of last ditch attempt to save himself.

[Midwest]

You know what GW are like with their ideas - personally i think they are strangling 40k with all the hints rather than laying down some solid fact. GW will eventually shoot themselves in the foot if they carry on loosely tying things together.

This reminds me of the discussion that arose during the switch from 2nd to 3rd, when GW tried to "reintroduce" some mystery to the 40k-verse by going away from the detailed overview fluff (i.e. when they went from the big 2nd edition codices to the paper-thin 3rd edition ones). Some people love the mystery, some people prefer to know the full story, even that which is 'hidden' in-game.

[Artein]

Don't the 1000 sons have, by far the least stable gene seed of any chapter? and Havant gene seed got less stable since the heresy? as far as i can recount all the traitor legions had highly stable gene seeds so if your going to use gene's seed from a traitor legion why not the night lords or world eaters? or any other legion?

 

I could write a novel on all the reasons it makes no sense. It'd be long, too. But on the flip side, that's all of 40K. It's still lush.

 

However, Chris Wraight is an awesome writer. So don't take my Blood Raven IP hesitancy to reflect poorly on him. He rocks on toast.

 

EDIT: And for the record, it's not the concept itself I'm against. It's proving it with unsubtle hints. That way lies madness.

 

Isn't it what 40k is about? Many unsubtle hints often in contradiction to one another?

 

You know what? You should write something with Blood Ravens hints as well. Something that contradicts 1k Sons theory. Night Lords? Maybe World Eaters? Sons of Horus/Black Legion? Maybe even Grey Knights?

 

You can also talk to Dan Abnett to put some of those hints in Know No Fear.

Or to Grah.... wait, you're afraid of him....

Gav Thorpe and his Deliverance Lost. Blood Ravens - Raven Guard....

Or James Swallow and his Fear to Thread. Blood Ravens - Blood Angels....