Pre heresy Chapter Choice

[ProteanSun]

I have been agonizing for many years as to what pre heresy space marine legion to do, and it seems since forgeworld offers the old marks of armor it is a realization possible with my rather limited time to hobby. The problem now is I would prefer to do a pre heresy traitor legion, but I am rather limited by the choices I can make with the codecies available. I play Blood Angels right now so I would prefer a different playstyle. So here are my options

 

Death Guard (anyone remember their old name? I seem to recall Dusken Raiders, but I think star wars is bleeding over)

 

Emperor's Children

 

Thousand Sons

 

Iron Warriors

 

Alpha Legion

 

Word Bearers

 

I want to use a competetive codex and that makes Thousand Sons a little shaky unless I use the Grey Knight codex which would severely limit the long range power essential to a space marine legion. Honestly if I did alpha legion the Space Wolves might work with their excellent scouts.

 

Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Death Guard...the 5E Space Marine codex?

[Olis]

The Death Guard were the Dusk Raiders before Mortarion was discovered. You were close enough, brother. ;)

 

I can't really see the correlation between Alpha Legion Fluff and the SW 'dex, I'd recommend the Tyrant's Legion army list in terms of representation of the Alpha Legion because 1) It's recent and 2) It has Astartes spearheading a regular Guard army.

 

Personally I would love to see a pre-heresy Word Bearers force but I think that might be because I've recently read The First Heretic... :D (I'd use the 5th ed C:SM for them, too.)

[ProteanSun]

Tyrant's Legion Army...is that in IA X?

[Doghouse]

Yeah the tyrant's legion is perfect for any pre-heresy armies for the reasons that Olisredan gave. You do need a lot of guardsmen though, you need a 1+ Legion Auxila unit that has twenty models as the base unit before anything else.

 

Thing to remember about Alpha Legion is that they attack on as many fronts as possible so you'll probably want a balance of units in your army.

 

The real beauty of pre-heresy Legions though is that you can pretty much use any codex that you see fit. It is literally a case of any dex will do.

 

The grand companies are organised into a number of lesser companies which each consist of between one to three hundred marines. The advantage of this is that it allows greater specialisation for your army.

 

So for example say you have Iron Warriors who are big on siege warfare, now whilst I might decide I'm going to use the Space Wolves codex because I want them mobile with two special weapons then that's fair enough. Now another player might want to do an Iron Warriors army that does the actual assault into the breach so decides to go with the Blood Angels codex so he can get lots of jump pack troops.

In truth neither of us is doing it wrong because both of us are doing separate companies that could well specialise in different arenas of combat in the same theatre of war. We're both using a siege armies that are key to the Iron Warriors nature but portraying different aspects.

 

The same can be said of any of the legions. So any codex can be used just as long as it fits the style that you want to represent with your army.

[ProteanSun]

I have an entire vostroyan infantry army to use in conjunction with the marines I am using. I plan on having a pre heresy Expeditionary force. Where can I get the Tyrant's Legion list?

[Olis]

I do believe the list itself is printed in IA9. I don't know where on the net you can get it, though.

[Mykra]

I want to use a competetive codex and that makes Thousand Sons a little shaky unless I use the Grey Knight codex which would severely limit the long range power essential to a space marine legion.

 

 

The beauty of Counts As is that it's only limited by your imagination and painting skills.

 

The Thousand Sons Pre-Heresy, so much fantastic fluff and modeling chances. Don't like the Grey Knights? You could use any Codex honestly, even the...dun dun dun....SPACE WOLVES. (No need to freak out Wolf players, it's just an example.)

 

A lot of the fun of a Pre-Heresy army can be just figuring out how to make the models work with modern lists. Having a Space Wolf Librarian with a wolf-tail talisman and the seeker of the dead and modeling it into a Librarian of the Pavoni with a scarab talisman and a tutelary could be insane fun. Just as making a World Eater assault force with chain-axes, swords, gore, and some really ticked off Dreadnoughts, or a really awesome Night Lords Counts As Blood Angels like the one on the 3++ blog, led by a Talonmaster with a ton of converted N.L. Jump Pack troops.

 

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Tyrant's Legion is one of those 'Opponent's Permission' lists, right? Probably not a big deal at all playing with mates, but could cause snags just trying to get games in a local store at first, and a no-no at basically all tournaments, yes?

 

Just wondering on that last part because while I have seen and played against numerous Counts As armies, I can't honestly say I've ever played against any of the Forgeworld Lists. Have to knock around the ol' memory and see if anything shakes loose.

[Olis]

Correct me if I am wrong, but the Tyrant's Legion is one of those 'Opponent's Permission' lists, right? Probably not a big deal at all playing with mates, but could cause snags just trying to get games in a local store at first, and a no-no at basically all tournaments, yes?

 

Any rules by Forgeworld are considered Opponent's Permission, iirc. Rules, lists, scenarios. At a local store it would depend on who's lenient and who's not. Tournament-wise I think only 'Official' army lists are allowed, but I could be wrong - it's been a while since I last played in a tournament.:lol:

[ProteanSun]

I was thinking of the Counts as 1K sons using the space wolf list, 4 librarians running around? awesome...also, using the Blood Angel Codex for Word Bearers to spam Chaplains all over the place (up to 5!)

 

Still haven't decided on a Legion, though narrowing it down slowly!

 

I looked into the Tyrant's Legion, looks real neat but the FO is not standard. I would rather have something that I could bring into a GW store and play a game without having to plead my case to play.

[Hyaenidae]

A recent idea I saw in the WIP forum, Thousand Sons army by Army310, this fella was using the new GK codex to represent his pre-heresy Sons. One of those ideas that's so simple yet awesome, you have to facepalm yourself twice. Just a thought, brother...good luck on your decision.

[Mykra]

A recent idea I saw in the WIP forum, Thousand Sons army by Army310, this fella was using the new GK codex to represent his pre-heresy Sons. One of those ideas that's so simple yet awesome, you have to facepalm yourself twice. Just a thought, brother...good luck on your decision.

 

 

There was another that used the GK Codex for Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons that was pretty amazing as well. Every model had a Tutelary along with hefty conversion work. The Stormraven base with the Sorceror's stealing the soul from the Space Wolf was a great idea.

 

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?t=11823

[ProteanSun]

yo be perfectly honest I don't like the GK codex as counts as Thousand Sons. If you ask me the GK are missing so many staple Marine things, like LONG RANGE. It is way too glaring of a deficiency for me to entertain, plus I don't want to model them up for a as close to WYSIWYG for the Grey Knight Codex and then have a true Chaos Codex come out that better represents the army, and then I have to agonize about making it more "legal". I also do not any of the special characters, or even the generic ones lol.

 

I am kind of leaning towards the Emperor's Children, Dusk Raiders, or Word Bearers honestly. I am wondering if I can actually write a Blood Angel list that is different enough from my current one yet fits the fluff of the Word Bearers. I am trying each idea out. :)

[Hyaenidae]

Fair enough, my friend. In that case, I'd personally go for Pre-Heresy, Pre-Monchara (sp?) Word Bearers. The Children have been done before to death, and the Dusk Raiders...meh. A little boring, in my opinion. But Word Bearers, still worshiping the Emperor as God....oh yeah. And the Black Templar codex would fit them better than the BA, in my opinion. A chaplain leading a squad of 'counts-as chaplain inductees' sword brethren would be outstanding.

[Olis]

Pre-Monchara (sp?)

 

Monarchia.

[ProteanSun]

I am curious about your reasoning of Black Templars over Blood Angel, provided both are fielded to proper pre heresy gear limitations. Rightous Zeal seems to be the big thing, but I would prefer a slightly more tacticaly sound army? I tried BT before, I hate those old codexes, so hard to write a list :)

 

I was thinking a Reclusiard and 2 Chaplains, Tactical, Assault, Devastator and Vanguard Marines, Predator (Destructor Pattern), maybe some landspeeders, and a land raider or 2. I am on the fence of if I would use Priests or now.

 

Astorath the Grim might even be a reasonably good choice, to help exemplify the Holy Fire the word bearers use? Just thoughts, I am more familiar with the BA codex lol.

[Mykra]

Fair enough, my friend. In that case, I'd personally go for Pre-Heresy, Pre-Monchara (sp?) Word Bearers. The Children have been done before to death, and the Dusk Raiders...meh. A little boring, in my opinion. But Word Bearers, still worshiping the Emperor as God....oh yeah. And the Black Templar codex would fit them better than the BA, in my opinion. A chaplain leading a squad of 'counts-as chaplain inductees' sword brethren would be outstanding.

 

That's actually a really awesome idea. I haven't seen Templars in so long I had forgotten to factor them in. Would be great to see!

[Marshal Wilhelm]

I have been agonizing for many years as to what pre heresy space marine legion to do, and it seems since forgeworld offers the old marks of armor it is a realization possible with my rather limited time to hobby. The problem now is I would prefer to do a pre heresy traitor legion, but I am rather limited by the choices I can make with the codecies available. I play Blood Angels right now so I would prefer a different playstyle. So here are my options

 

Death Guard (anyone remember their old name? I seem to recall Dusken Raiders, but I think star wars is bleeding over)

 

Emperor's Children

 

Thousand Sons

 

Iron Warriors

 

Alpha Legion

 

Word Bearers

 

I want to use a competetive codex and that makes Thousand Sons a little shaky unless I use the Grey Knight codex which would severely limit the long range power essential to a space marine legion. Honestly if I did alpha legion the Space Wolves might work with their excellent scouts.

 

Word Bearers, Iron Warriors, Emperor's Children, Death Guard...the 5E Space Marine codex?

 

Well I am a big fan of 30K.

I also think the pre-Traitors are the ones to play as, due to you getting to enjoy them being goodies for only a few centuries. Perfection lost.

 

I like World Eaters [Coolest name. Ever.] Iron Warriors and Thousand Sons the best of the to-be baddies.

But you already do BA, which is an obvious Codex for them. However: Eaters of Worlds., the blog author, Pacific, makes a point that the WE could be Warhounds [pre-Angron WE] and so use a more Codex style of battle.

 

You could always sell your Blood Angels to fund your foray into the real Assault Legion of 30K :)

B)

 

Then you could play any style you wanted, from C:SM Warhounds to C:BA World Eaters and even use C:CSM if it took your fancy....

All using the same miniatures.... :confused:

 

+++

 

The Thousand Sons just became super kitbashable with the new Tomb Kings goodies coming out in plastic.

 

Few in number. Shooty. L33t magic skeeyulz. This makes C:GK very viable imo and would provide you with a MEq force that is quite different in style from the Blood Angels. Note I haven't played against GK yet, just going from internettism lurking.

 

GK have Psyflemen Dreads, who are sure to become the new Missile Fangs in pain factor. Twin linked s8 guns on a Dread that ignores stunned and shaken most of the time. Missile launchers and Las cannons don't do a better job than that and so you lose nothing by going GK.

 

+++

 

Iron Warriors are not really done well by any Dexes, and you'd have to love them purely, rather than being able to get them onto the table in a fluff-rules realisation. Imo.

 

+++

 

Word Bearers can be played with using C:BT, which is now quite a solid list postFAQ. If you want to play masses of zealous Word Bearers, that is not the most effective list from the Templars Dex, but I thought I should mention that before getting you too interested in them.

[ProteanSun]

Couple things.

 

For the Word Bearers: I have been looking at the Black Templar Codex and I am still not totally sure why the C:BT codex would be a better choice over C:BA. I would think the chance of ultra zealous Marines would work well, along with having a chance to take up to 5 chaplains. Plus it's a 5th edition codex, which means it is so much easier to write. This being said I am still interested in the general consensus to use C:BT, I want to know why it would be a better choice.

 

If I put inscriptions on the armor and add things like pages from the book of lorgar and other purity seals, can I legally reproduce the entire piece? Let's say I have a set of space marine legs that I doctor up into Mk. IV legs and add some personal art to the piece. Can I them create a mold of that and cast it myself? Does it matter if I use Green Stuff so I am technically using 100% GW product? I am not going to sell anything I reproduce. I am just kind of lazy and am bad at replicating sculpting work.

 

Not selling my Blood Angels, love them too much, first army I ever collected.

[Hyaenidae]

Please mind you, these are all personal opinions, so take them or leave them as you wish. I've never really seen the pre heresy Bearers of the Word as having hordes of Chaplains running around like the BA. A Chaplain within a legion of zealots is a unique individual, a superb holy warrior as well as an iterator of sorts, motivating with his skill at arms as well as inflaming the soul with his words. He might have a chosen few that he is sheparding towards the light (his eventual replacements upon death), but a swarm of fellow Chaplains? Fluff wise, I'm not sure how that would work. Imagine this: you go to your place of worship, and upon sitting down, the sermon begins...but instead of one preacher speaking, you have five talking at you at the same time. The topic is roughly the same, but the words are different and overlap heavily. You'd walk out a few hours later confused, and carrying no significant lesson. Now, just imagine one amazing preacher, speaking loud and clear, spinning words like a symphony, sending your soul soaring, dissolving all doubt, setting your mind on fire with love for your higher power. This is how I imagine a Word Bearer Chaplain. A figurehead of supreme divinity to a thousand holy warriors, his passion and zeal sending his followers into hell over and over again with a beatific smile on their faces, proud and pure. Hell, even post heresy (according to the Anthony Reynolds Word Bearers books at least), a host of a few thousand was led by one Dark Chaplain, and his chosen (kinda, lol) replacement. Warfare is led by the Host Captains. Jihad against Xenos is led by the Chaplains. With these two combined, this is what makes the Bearers of the Word so dang dangerous, and utterly unstoppable.

 

Beyond that, not only 'righteous zeal' fits the Word Bearers, but the vows as well, representing the holy fervor and focus once they have set their minds to a task. No pity / remorse / fear repesents the fearlessness of a zealot doing the God-Emperors work. An Emperor's Champion would work well either in the same role (a holy warrior blessed with visions of the God-Emperor, aflame with purpose and love for Him on Earth, charged to end a blasphemous foe ), or as a Chaplains aspirant, earning his right to carry the Crozius through blood during battle, and study and prayer controlled and taught by the Chaplan himself when at peace.

 

A variety of the equipment fits like a glove (blessed hull, holy orbs of antioch, cenobyte servitors, etc.) And finally, Grimaldus would make a super sweet 'Counts-As' Erebus.

 

There. I've laid out my case. Make of it what you will. No matter the codex you choose though, I still vote for the Word Bearers. :wink:

[ProteanSun]

See, THAT is what I was looking for! I needed some thematic reasoning, one with enough fire to get me willing to go back to the old codex format >.<

 

I really like the idea of the swarm of the faithful. I am just concerned as how I should field it. Looking at 325 for a 20 man crusader squad with a fist and a meltagun. The problem is going to be long range anti tank, should I go for the Venerable Dreads with Lascannon/Missile Launcher? Predator Annihilators are out of the question and my only other anti-tank is the Regular Land Raider.

 

Any ideas on models to use for the neophytes? I was thinking Vostroyans due to the fact they look soooooo close to the pre heresy guard from the Collected Visions once the aquillas are removed, but there are only a few models that have a ccw and a gun I can swap out. other suggestions?

[Hyaenidae]

5 man termies w/ 2x cyclones and Tank Hunter (God, i miss the old vet skills you could purchase, lol). Remember, with the BT codex now updated (check out the GW website, they have the update there), cyclones in a BT army act like Vanilla now, 2 shots instead of one. Death all around. Check out this thread here for some good foot-slogging BT action. I'm a fan of the list in post #12 personally.

 

Edit: New BT codex update here.

[ProteanSun]

Do you think that the Word Bearers would have much access to Assault Cannons for termnators? I thought they were pretty rare.

 

Wouldn't it be best to field the Chaplain w/ the Cenobyte Servitors in a full 20 man crusader Squad?

 

I think I would have to build this army to 2k to start, 1500 is just so limiting to MEQs.

[ProteanSun]

I would also prefer to have more infantry than terminators, I would almost switch out the assault terminators for 2 cheap Predator Destructors. Let the Terminators with the CML take out tanks and let the Predator soften up infantry and light vehicles.

 

I would love to put in some sort of fast attack. I could scratch build a speeder to look PH. With Bikes I can field 3 meltaguns... Not sure how prolific storm shields were PH so I am iffy on the assault squad.

[ProteanSun]

Upon review I am not so sure I want to do another assaulty army for my PH marine. I am looking to a go a little bit more shooty than black templars I think. What are the thoughts on a codex choice for a Death Guard army? I would like tp be able to represent their unrelenting approach to an enemy, weathing the enemies firepower and trudging forth. The only codex I can think of 10+ marines is Chaos and The bloodclaws from Space Wolves.

 

Was working on a DG list

 

Lord

Mark of Nurgle

Daemon Weapon

Melta Bombs

 

9 Plague Marines

2 Meltaguns

Plague Champion w/ Power Fist

Rhino

Extra Armor

 

15 Chaos Marines

Icon of Nurgle

2x Meltaguns

Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist

 

15 Chaos Marines

Icon of Nurgle

2x Meltaguns

Aspiring Champion w/ Power Fist

 

10 Havocs

4xAutoCannons (or Missile Launchers)

 

Predator

Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Daemonic Posession

 

1497 in total, 50 Infantry, 2 tanks

[ProteanSun]

Well now due to massive frustration I am to the point of selling everything 40K I own except my Blood Angels and looking them away. It does not seem that fielding anything pre-heresy is viable. It seems that only Mat Ward codecies are viable. I am hating what Warhammer (fantasy and otherwise) is becoming. I want my damn money back! >.<

 

So before I abandon all hope, I want to see if there is anyway to salvage my hobby out of this, because I am really at the point where I am wondering if it is worth to keep playing.

 

Help?

 

Or don't. and maybe you'll find a deal on e-bay soon!